More anti-semitism in France

[CorpusScorpius]

Hating groups of people is wrong but what do you expect if people in the same family cant get along.............

[Drake Tungsten]

Oerdin, the last time a cop incidentally shot and killed an Arab there were riots in the "ghettos" for a week at least.
You have to act smooth with them if you don't want them to become crazy : look at the ME...

This is very true. I feel bad for you Frenchies; you've got a hell of a social problem on your hands. Good luck.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Odd then that it would be published in the generally liberal and multilateralist Washington Post.

Which definitely covers hate crimes in the US, whether involving Jews, Blacks, gays, etc.

One of the problems was that for some time France attempted to avoid even reporting these as hatecrimes.

I note that the French Jewish community finds this a major problem, and that emigration from France to Israel has notably picked up - extraordinary to see a significant migration to Israel from a wealthy, Western country.

And has hersh has pointed out, the French govt FINALLY also sees this as a major problem.

Whatever it's origins, the article is misleading on several grounds. Firstly, it invites the reader to generalise from the Paris area to the whole of France, which is clearly a mistake. Secondly, the writing and pictures are misleading. Take this section:

Elsewhere on this steamy July afternoon, he will meet with a businessman whose kosher restaurant was torched recently, a young man assaulted for wearing a Star of David necklace and a congregation of frightened synagogue-goers, some of whom are talking seriously of emigrating to Israel.

It gives the impression that these incidents occured within a week, when in fact, if the article is checked more closely, they were seperated by weeks or months. The picture of the burnt front of a synagogue comes from 18 months ago, but a casual reader may miss the caption. Why is such an old picture being used, if there are so many attacks?

As for the migration, it's NOT significant. It's slightly more than 0.3% a year. That could easily be made up with new babies and Jewish immigration to France. I wonder what the emigration rate of Jews from the US or Israel is?

The poll which 'suggests' that over 25% of France's jews have considered leaving, suggests to me that almost 75% of France's Jews have not considered leaving. Furthermore, since there will always be a bedrock of Jews considering moving to Israel, even in a perfect society, this is not convincing at all.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler


Uhm... Dino dear, that may be so unusual you can't imagine it, but I was agreeing with you.

Yea, but you didn't come out and say you were agreeing with him Mr. Obtuse.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by D' Artagnan
What you guys need to understand is that 99 % of antisemite violent (or not) acts come from Arab populations. There are 4-5 millions of Arabs in France and only 600,000 Jews in France.
The average French isn't more antisemitic than ppl from other countries.

I believe you, within a % point or so.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Sikander


Yea, but you didn't come out and say you were agreeing with him Mr. Obtuse.

Didn't I say "indeed" ? Yes, I did...

[VJ]

The article is simply more hysterical French-bashing, with the Jews as the convenient pawn.

I agree.

My opinion from Washington Post fell because of this article, but not much.

[laurentius]

Would you recommend me to actually read the article before posting, Tuome?

[Felch]

Originally posted by Sandman
The poll which 'suggests' that over 25% of France's jews have considered leaving, suggests to me that almost 75% of France's Jews have not considered leaving. Furthermore, since there will always be a bedrock of Jews considering moving to Israel, even in a perfect society, this is not convincing at all.

Yeah, but thinking about moving to Israel for security reasons?

[Panag]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Quote:

Hawaii was the only state that did not participate in reporting hate crime to the FBI; Alabama participated but reported zero hate crime for the entire year.

My stats are from the Anti-Defamation League, not the FBI. Are you saying you don't trust a Jewish defense league to report hate crimes against Jews?

BTW, the ADL lists Alabama as having 1 anti-Semitic event in 2000. Enlightened South indeed.

http://www.adl.org/adl.asp

hi ,

what his he going to do then with the numbers from the consular section and the council from the communities , ......

those numbers are a great deal higher , ....

there is something like cidi in holland that keeps numbers , but even they dont have everything , .....

its intresting to see the lines from monday till thursday at the embassy in Paris where people ask for migration papers , ....


have a nice day

[Shi Huangdi]

This was relayed to by PM from Spiffor:

Hi Shi !
I've just noticed your thread about more news of antisemitism in France. I am currently banned (at my request, because of the exam period), so I can't write in the thread. However, I remeber we had a thread about it a few months ago, shortly before the Iraqi war IIRC. I have posted long posts, which gave both a description of the general situation in France, and my views on the matter.
Being banned, I sadly can't use the research feature, but please feel free to read the previous thread again, and to quote it at will. I think it remains 100% current even today.

The NY times article you now posted adresses a serious point, that is the identity crisis by many Jews. While it is not to be exaggerated (most Jews continue to feel French first), it is real that the surge of antisemitism made the Jewish element of identity more important to every Jew, and I have the subjective feeling it made Jewishness more important in the whole population (i.e, regular catholics or agnostics emphasize a bit more than before the Jewishness of people they encounter).
While the trend is now still very light, it is disturbing indeed.

The previous lack of answer from the government came from the fact that "hate crimes" (crimes from one community towards another) are quite new to us, because communitarization is new in France, because of a failure in the assimilation process. It seems the existence of hate crimes is now acknowledged by the government, even if it is not too vocal (communitarization is a catastrophe for the French assimilation ideal).

[Panag]

Europeans must act to stem anti-Semitism
By Abraham H. Foxman
National Director of the Anti-Defamation League
This op-ed originally appeared in the New Jersey Jewish Standard on June 27, 2003.

Posted: June 30, 2003


It was the right occasion in the right place at the right time. Vienna was the venue, last week, where leaders from 55 nations, joined by Jewish community representatives from around the globe, came to address the issue of the anti-Semitic explosion in Europe and elsewhere.

It would have been nice if the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), the host of the meeting, had done it at its own initiative. Unfortunately, like so many things Jewish in our world, it was a product of efforts by the American Jewish community and American officials (the Anti-Defamation League recommended to a U.S. Congressional OSCE meeting on anti-Semitism last year that a conference in Europe would be an important step). While the Europeans were not exactly brought kicking and screaming to do this conference, it would not have happened without American leadership.

That is an important point that cannot be discounted. Just 60 years ago, when the Jews of Europe needed a far different level of help, neither America nor American Jews did anything like this. As a Public Member to the U.S. Delegation, I listened to strong statements by a variety of significant speakers on the need to combat anti-Semitism. Yet the question that lingered with me was not how did we come to be there or what were the motives of the Europeans, but how serious were they about taking the necessary steps to transform attitudes toward Jews that were causing such havoc around the world.

The real test as to whether the Vienna conference will soon fade away as just a good show or whether it will be a trigger, the true starting point for a new worldwide effort to stand up against anti-Semitism, will lie in several areas. First, will the OSCE and European nations actively oppose the hatred and incitement against Jews flowing from the Arab world? Political, intellectual, and religious leaders from Europe must insist in a variety of forums that, the Big Lie --blaming the Jews for 9/11, growing Holocaust denial, the spread of the infamous forgery the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and other manifestations of anti-Semitism in the Arab and Islamic world, are unacceptable. The silence of Europe in the face of this dangerous incitement against Jews must end.

Second, will they make the connection between the bias against Israel in Europe -- in the media, in governments -- and the surge of anti-Semitism on Europe's streets? Will they end the self-satisfying rationalizations that they are just engaging in legitimate criticism of Israel and recognize that the singling out of Israel created the environment in which anti-Semitism flourishes? It is time that Europeans recognize their responsibility for anti-Jewish attitudes by virtue of their double-standard, one-sided condemnations of the Jewish state.

Third, will European leaders work with their Jewish communities to diminish anti-Semitism, or will they leave it to the Jews of their countries to find their own answers? Working with the communities means prosecuting those who commit anti-Semitic acts; calling attacks on Jews and Jewish institutions what they are: anti-Semitism; enacting and implementing hate crime laws; and changing the hearts and minds of the public through the use of media and tolerance programs in the schools. In other words, serious and responsible efforts to change things.

Finally, will the Europeans begin to play a very different role in international organizations where anti-Israel bias reflected in the infamous Zionism is racism ideology is easily transformed into outright anti-Semitism? At the U.N. World Conference Against Racism in Durban, South Africa in 2001, American and other Jews found themselves beleaguered and lonely. Europeans and human rights groups spoke out against the avalanche of hate, if at all, too little and too late.

We hope that the experience in Vienna will motivate the Europeans to do the right thing. We won't, however, count on it. We will continue to press Europe to act. We will encourage our own government and congressional representatives to continue their admirable efforts to work with their European colleagues. And we will continue to point out the dangers not only to Jews, but to democratic societies should anti-Semitism be allowed to flourish.

[HershOstropoler]

"Second, will they make the connection between the bias against Israel in Europe -- in the media, in governments -- and the surge of anti-Semitism on Europe's streets?"

Where's the puke smiley?

[Panag]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"Second, will they make the connection between the bias against Israel in Europe -- in the media, in governments -- and the surge of anti-Semitism on Europe's streets?"

Where's the puke smiley?

hi ,

why the puke smilie , because it does happen , or because of that quote , ....

have a nice day

[HershOstropoler]

There is an open debate here about the Israel-palestinian conflict. What people who link antisemitism and criticism if Israel want is a change to a rabid pro-Israel bias. Won't happen. Better scrap the idea, as it poisons every argument about antisemitism.

[Panag]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
There is an open debate here about the Israel-palestinian conflict. What people who link antisemitism and criticism if Israel want is a change to a rabid pro-Israel bias. Won't happen. Better scrap the idea, as it poisons every argument about antisemitism.

hi ,

who wants it to be turned into a pro israel ( biased or not ) debate , example please , .......

and that is not the issue neither , the topic is about france and more the less the rise of anti semitism in europe , .....

have a nice day

[HershOstropoler]

"and that is not the issue neither , the topic is about france and more the less the rise of anti semitism in europe"

Exactly. So keep the faulty claims of anti-Israel biasses out of it.

[Panag]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"and that is not the issue neither , the topic is about france and more the less the rise of anti semitism in europe"

Exactly. So keep the faulty claims of anti-Israel biasses out of it.

hi ,

and where are those " faulty claims ", ..... and anti israel biasses , where are they , .....

have a nice day

[HershOstropoler]

"and where are those " faulty claims ", ..... and anti israel biasses , where are they"

Uhm... yes, where are the anti-Israel biasses? And if they don't exist, you have your "faulty claim" in "will they make the connection between the bias against Israel in Europe".

[PLATO]

I have never really understood why Europe has historically had such high anti-semitism. It is not just the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This has been going on before the current state of Israel was founded. What is the historical basis for this? It just doesn't seem to make sense.

[HershOstropoler]

Antisemitism goes back about 2000 years, and has various roots. It subsided during enlightenment, but came back with a vengeance during the age of nationalism. It is, unfortunately, part of european heritage. By which it also part of american heritage, don't play squeaky clean.

[Az]

Btw, did anyone get the latest "French jews and Far-right cooperate" report....

[PLATO]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Antisemitism goes back about 2000 years, and has various roots. It subsided during enlightenment, but came back with a vengeance during the age of nationalism. It is, unfortunately, part of european heritage. By which it also part of american heritage, don't play squeaky clean.

Didn't mean to seem like I was playing sqeaky clean. Rather I am questioning the root source of anti-semetic feelings in Europe. While I agree that it has a long history, I still do not know why. Anybody?

[GePap]

Well, for one, the killed Jesus.... or at least, that was accepted Church policy for a while.

Certainly the relation of Christianity to judaism was one key factor, probalby the key factor. Jews were the only non-Christian community that lived in Christian areas of Europe for centuries, and were ostracized.

[HershOstropoler]

"Didn't mean to seem like I was playing sqeaky clean."

Sorry.

"While I agree that it has a long history, I still do not know why. Anybody?"

Jews did not integrate into the Romans' imperial cult and were seen as suspicious, especially after several large scale revolts in Judea and the Levante in the 1st and 2nd century. That went seamlessly into christian antisemitism from the 4th century on. The Franks were very tolerant, but that caused dissent among more radical clerics. The religious hysteria surrounding the crusades reignited antisemitism, and it stayed around until the 18th century. At the time, the idea of integrating jews into the new civil society took hold. That was not an all-out solution, with ia jewish resistance against losing the special legal status, but it worked until the 19th century.

Then, nationalist movements, political catholicism and some strains on the left found jews, especially those that had profitted from integrating into the civil society, as old new scapegoats. That new antisemitism culminated into the holocaust.

Antisemitism was still cultivated in some circles after WWII, but the main protagonists today are the rightwing extremists and radical muslim-arab groups. It is interesting that other muslim groups (turks, pakistanis etc) show very little inclination towards antisemitic violence.

[PLATO]

Okay that makes sense. Thanks GePap and Hersh. It seems that religious intolerence can be traced to many evils. I wonder why Europe does not exhibit the same tendencies toward Muslims. They have, after all, been part of the European community for centuries.

[GePap]

Actually, Muslims are a relatively new addition. The first significant Muslim community to fall under Christian political control in Europe was quickly wipped out in Spain. Next came Christian rule over Muslims in the Balkans, and as we see, that was not a very peacefull relation at all. Significant Islamic immigration into Europe happened only after WW2, so it is only 50 years old at best.

Muslims in Christian Europe were a rarity until then, so I do;t view the things as analogous.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
I wonder why Europe does not exhibit the same tendencies toward Muslims.

Muslims face a lot of resentment (and a much broader based one).

[PLATO]

Originally posted by GePap
Actually, Muslims are a relatively new addition. The first significant Muslim community to fall under Christian political control in Europe was quickly wipped out in Spain. Next came Christian rule over Muslims in the Balkans, and as we see, that was not a very peacefull relation at all. Significant Islamic immigration into Europe happened only after WW2, so it is only 50 years old at best.

Muslims in Christian Europe were a rarity until then, so I do;t view the things as analogous.

I was under the impression that there was a significat Muslim presence in Eastern Europe since the 1500's. It does seem that the pace of migration has picked up in the last fifty years or so though.

Muslims face a lot of resentment (and a much broader based one).

This does not get anywhere near the press over here that anti-semetic acts do. In many ways our media is portraying that Muslim feelings are driving policy in much of "old" Europe right now.

[HershOstropoler]

"This does not get anywhere near the press over here that anti-semetic acts do."

Well as I said, your media do a lot of very selective reporting, to put it nicely.

"In many ways our media is portraying that Muslim feelings are driving policy in much of "old" Europe right now."

I know, but it is total nonsense. It has some merit for France, where maybe 5 % of the electorate are muslim. On the other hand, the FN is driven to a good extent by anti-muslim or anti-arab sentiments.

It is rubbish for Germany, where if IIRC only 1.5 % of the electorate is muslim.