What is happening to Poly? - Page 3

MattH · July 21, 2003, 19:28

Hey, it was a crosspost, okay?

Kuciwalker · July 21, 2003, 19:38

Okay

Skanky Burns · July 21, 2003, 19:42

Quote:

Originally posted by MattH

Did you leave out a decimal marker in that $100? Current cost = ~$13.99 (settler II large mug)

Granted, there was a fair chunk of hyperbole in that figure, but the cost for me doesn't stop there. There is of course shipping to the other side of the world, customs duty, currency conversion fees, actually having my currency converted to a much stronger dollar. All in all, the Poly mug I have in front of me cost around $60.

Then there is the efficiency issue. How much of that money actually made it all the way to Apolyton? For the same amount of money, I could buy myself a mug from a shop ($5), a bottle of bourbon ($37), a bottle of coke ($3), and still have enough left over to donate $15 to Apolyton, well above what they would get from me just buying a mug from the store.

PLATO · July 21, 2003, 20:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercator
If ever they do start accepting money, that should be purely voluntary and unconditional, unrelated to the "service", as you mention.

This is what I'm talking about. Perhaps they could get their accountant to take pledges and when enough is their for the right equipment we mail 'em in. Completely anonymous to all but the bean counter.

I know this probably sounds dumb...trying to find a way to give these guys money...but this is to good a site to let die due to inadequate equipment. If the daily crashes continue or get worse then there won't be apolytoners on apolyton. (OF course the server should work great then!)

Asuka, Thanks for the help, but I speak panag

Continuing to have a nice day.

PLATO · July 21, 2003, 21:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns

Granted, there was a fair chunk of hyperbole in that figure, but the cost for me doesn't stop there. There is of course shipping to the other side of the world, customs duty, currency conversion fees, actually having my currency converted to a much stronger dollar. All in all, the Poly mug I have in front of me cost around $60.

Then there is the efficiency issue. How much of that money actually made it all the way to Apolyton? For the same amount of money, I could buy myself a mug from a shop ($5), a bottle of bourbon ($37), a bottle of coke ($3), and still have enough left over to donate $15 to Apolyton, well above what they would get from me just buying a mug from the store.

I soooo agree. Well anyway, my mug is now on the way. $19.99 w/shipping. Mark, Dan, hope the 2 bucks helps. (Would be willing to help more if the process of financially supporting poly MADE ANY SENSE!)

mrmitchell · July 21, 2003, 22:09

Quote:

when you buy a service (paid membership)?

I hadn't noticed this before, but this might have something to do with it, despite its incredible outdatedness:

http://apolyton.net/about/cda.shtml

Quote:

The Civilization Decency Act

The Civilization Decency Act was originally started by the Addicted to Civilization website on September 22nd, 1998, as a formalization of various Civ-related sites' similar policies on webmaster practices. Since Addicted to Civilization has ceased to operate, the CDA has in turn not been updated. Since the recent release of multiple Civilization & TBS games, the copying of files, content, images and other forms of media has run rampant through Civilization sites and has caused many sites to lose their "identity". There is no question that similar acts are just as grave a concern in other sectors of the gaming community, and to address this concern more adequately for Civilization genre based sites, the CDA torch has now been picked up by a new generation of Civ-sites.

Apolyton CS & SidGames are proud to present the community with the rebirth of The Civilization Decency Act. This act will serve as a foundation of trust between Civilization sites on the web, whereby signing members agree to the following:

* The content of any member site will lack pornographic, malicious, or vulgar material.
* Entry fee(s) to the site, either for partial content or in-full, shall be non-existent.
* Not to copy the content, in any way shape or form, of other sites without the express written consent of the sites author and/or the file creator, with the exception of News items as outlined below.
* Agree that their sites will not copy the news of another site without linking them (the "originator") as a or the source. In other words, websites may not obtain news from other signing sites and treat it as news found by themselves, including the "official" websites of the games that are covered on the particular fan site (i.e. for C:CTP, that would be Activision).
* The rule aforementioned above also extends to non-Civilization websites -- i.e. Find a news item of a particular nature on GameSpot in relation to Civ? Credit GS with a reciprocal link at the time of posting your similar news item.

If you would like to have your website join in this act you must email the heads of the CDA team. They will in turn review and add your site to the list IF it follows the guidelines above; if an applying website does not meet the guidelines, they will a) be informed why and b) wait a period of at least one month before applying again.

Once accepted into the CDA, new member sites will go through a "trial-period" of two weeks before being granted full member status. If you take a look at the listing below, those sites in bold have achieved full standing in the CDA. To determine when the "trial" member sites will achieve full member status, barring any unfortunate incidents, simply add 14 days to their signing date -- this is indicated to the right of the signee's name.

Violation of the rules above at any time after being accepted into the CDA will result in temporary or permanent removal from the list; the lead sites [Apolyton/SidGames] are the sole arbitrators in these matters.

Signing Members (1999):

* Apolyton Civilization Site (Sept. 3rd)
* SidGames ("")
* Fantastic Worlds

* Civilization III Civilopedia

That probably doesn't matter worth a half-**** today, but I applaud Markos and Dan for not giving us the oppurtunity to create a clique-style system. (Also, what are you going to give to the sponsored users? Just give them something like a title and no one will buy it; give them everything and you'll have to buy it to even be a member that has any power to do anything at all.)

(Sorry if my thoughts are not totally coherent--haven't had any caffeine in about 5 hours.

)

Panag · July 22, 2003, 07:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns

Granted, there was a fair chunk of hyperbole in that figure, but the cost for me doesn't stop there. There is of course shipping to the other side of the world, customs duty, currency conversion fees, actually having my currency converted to a much stronger dollar. All in all, the Poly mug I have in front of me cost around $60.

Then there is the efficiency issue. How much of that money actually made it all the way to Apolyton? For the same amount of money, I could buy myself a mug from a shop ($5), a bottle of bourbon ($37), a bottle of coke ($3), and still have enough left over to donate $15 to Apolyton, well above what they would get from me just buying a mug from the store.

hi ,

things shall get better when apolyton get a base in your parts of the world , .....

but you give a great example as to why there should be a european based server and shop , .... any sales made from there would be import free for the other eu countries , .....

when Mark gets back we might see something like that , who knows , .....

who knows , maybe we shall get poly soon on our mobiles , ..... ( thats going to happen within 3 years or so )

have a nice day

Solver · July 22, 2003, 08:59

For the record, Markos and Dan have stated on several occasions that this site will never have things such as paid membership, or some paid content accessible only to "golden members" who pay, or something like that. They have decided that this site will always be completely free to everyone for discussions and game info, and for that, I really respect them.

Rasbelin will probably confirm that I have my reasons to hate commercially-oriented gaming sites

.

Snowflake · July 22, 2003, 10:56

But they can still accept pledges can't they? It's still free in the sense you don't have to pay anything to benefit from the site but if you like you could support it.

Mercator · July 22, 2003, 10:59

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
things shall get better when apolyton get a base in your parts of the world , .....

The store is run by CafePress.com, and has absolutely nothing to do with Apolyton.

The CDA itself was outdated ever since Apolyton revived it. There are only two members left: Apolyton, and my site (Fantastic Worlds, which has since been renamed and moved to another URL,

, maybe I should let them know). They'd better either remove it, or bring attention to it again for all the fansites of all games covered by 'poly. Because now it's just a waste of space.

Still, I completely agree with you, mrmitchell, it shows the idea of the owners. And I think getting money involved in membership terms and privileges is a VERY bad idea.
Donation is good, but don't expect any special treatment in return.

Mercator · July 22, 2003, 11:09

DP (damn server

)

Skanky Burns · July 22, 2003, 21:12

I would like to donate, for the simple reason that with more money floating around, it will be easier for the admin to keep the site up and responsive. If the site is up and responsive, then I can continue to enjoy posting here.

asleepathewheel · July 22, 2003, 21:23

Time to trim the fat. Maybe get rid of the Ron, Moo, Galciv sections. Maybe close down some of the Demo games. Maybe shut down the offtopic until money can be raised to fix the problems. Maybe Apolyton should figure out its identity, because clearly it can't exist in the current state.

DanQ · July 22, 2003, 23:16

Indeed the "Civilization Decency Act" was (long) oudated. It may be re-written and revived at some point in the future but, for now, I have removed its listing and presence.

-----------
Dan; Apolyton CS

mrmitchell · July 22, 2003, 23:43

I didn't mean for you to get rid of it. I just meant to note it as a possible back-up of the idea that th admins think of paid membership as an evil scum that should be eliminated from the face of the Earth.

asleepatthewheel--NO! RoN is most of our new growth; even if it hinders us now new growth is very good and eventually the deluge of cheat and patchseekers will subside to leave us a healthy new generation of Apolytoners. MoO3 sucked; do what you want with it but it's so pathetic that it really shouldn't be hurting things anyways?

And your OT suggestion? Pah. The Off-Topic is the best thing since sliced bread.

There's really not a lot we can do except for upgrading the server, which, if it causes any financial problems, would just have to wait

Ben Kenobi · July 23, 2003, 04:19

Seems like DanQ needs a visit from the 'server fairy.'

I agree with the policy of no paid admission to the site, but what about donations from those members willing to support? No strings attached, just a gift to help keep an excellent site running.

geeslaka · July 23, 2003, 04:37

Money is a string in and of itself.
While nearly all Apolytoners would not try to use their donations to gain some form of leverage or status, there are a few unscrupulous people who would. The mods shouldn't need to worry about whether or not a poster will stop donating if they get banned. Though if enough people are donating whether or not a single person stops could be insignificant.

Rasbelin · July 23, 2003, 05:42

Quote:

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Time to trim the fat.

The issue isn't how many forums there is. It's a purely technical issue, so stop giving such childish advices.

alva · July 23, 2003, 05:44

Quote:

Originally posted by geeslaka
Money is a string in and of itself.
While nearly all Apolytoners would not try to use their donations to gain some form of leverage or status, there are a few unscrupulous people who would. The mods shouldn't need to worry about whether or not a poster will stop donating if they get banned. Though if enough people are donating whether or not a single person stops could be insignificant.

If the mods wouldn't know who donated in the first place, part of this problem could be solved.

Rasbelin · July 23, 2003, 05:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Solver
For the record, Markos and Dan have stated on several occasions that this site will never have things such as paid membership, or some paid content accessible only to "golden members" who pay, or something like that.

Quote:

Rasbelin will probably confirm that I have my reasons to hate commercially-oriented gaming sites.

Tim's monkey business is completely unrelated to this, plus it's not donation or member fee based.

asleepathewheel · July 23, 2003, 06:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka
The issue isn't how many forums there is. It's a purely technical issue, so stop giving such childish advices.

Asuka-

Tell me what the problem is? I assumed it was server load, as it crashes during peak hours every week day, and that's what I've heard through the grapevine. Maybe today's maintainence will fix it, but who knows. Reducing forums would reduce traffic thus reducing server loads correct? Isn't that a way to solve the problem? And I don't understand how my advice was childish. I was pointing out parts of Apolyton that could be pared off until the server can be fixed. Apolyton obviously can't handle the stress put on it now, so I offered a solution. What you offered in return to my comment was nothing more than a cheap shot, and I think you are better than that.

Rasbelin · July 23, 2003, 08:11

Yes, it's the server load, server software and the scripts like vBulletin. Basically you can of course limit services by removing a few fora (you are correct with it). However (here's the point why you overestimate what can be done with that) it's only a short term solution as I'm sure ACS doesn't want to become smaller either and it would mean less active discussions. It gives very little benefit on a longer term (sure, you get some temporary relief), but that doesn't solve the fundamental issue that ACS is growing, not diminishing, so you can't start dropping off stuff. Also worth to notice is that the current situation isn't yet the same that Settler II is bad. No, it's not. Neither have I ever claimed so. The point is that it's just too overloaded as the site is too large for it. Thus more effective and longterm solutions are needed. Some temporary facelifts can actually become desctructive (i.e. the community diminishes).

Panag · July 23, 2003, 09:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercator

The store is run by CafePress.com, and has absolutely nothing to do with Apolyton.

The CDA itself was outdated ever since Apolyton revived it. There are only two members left: Apolyton, and my site (Fantastic Worlds, which has since been renamed and moved to another URL,

, maybe I should let them know). They'd better either remove it, or bring attention to it again for all the fansites of all games covered by 'poly. Because now it's just a waste of space.

Still, I completely agree with you, mrmitchell, it shows the idea of the owners. And I think getting money involved in membership terms and privileges is a VERY bad idea.
Donation is good, but don't expect any special treatment in return.

hi ,

soon they shall have there own store , .....

Solver , your message is what it really makes so great , the viewpoints of Mark and Dan should be followed by many

have a nive day

Ben Kenobi · July 23, 2003, 10:15

Quote:

If the mods wouldn't know who donated in the first place, part of this problem could be solved.

Anonymous donors? That's an interesting idea. It would alleviate the difficulties with those who use their money for leverage.

However, I have no idea how one could maintain an anonymous donor without some kind of donor pool, especially considering that cash would not be how the donations would be done.

alva · July 23, 2003, 10:24

Well, let's say only the owners would know who donated, nobody else.

Snowflake · July 23, 2003, 11:19

I don't understand. We have a public radio here (KBIA) and they have pledge drives every so often. People can pledge from $40 to $400 or even more I think and you get stuff back such as mugs with KBIA on it. They announce the names of the people who pledge through the radio and say thank you for your support. And that's it. Nobody expects any different treatment. Why couldn't Poly do that? What's the importance of who knows or not knows who donated or not?

PLATO · July 23, 2003, 11:27

The solution to anonymous donation is to have an independent 3rd party(probably an accountant) recieve all donations and process them. Then one check a week, month, or whatever to Markos and Dan.

Mercator · July 23, 2003, 11:51

I think that's going a bit far, especially since then that accountant would also have to be paid.

I don't think it needs to be anonymous, as long as Apolyton makes it clear from the start you will not gain any benefits in return.

Harry Seldon · July 23, 2003, 16:07

I don't mind anyone taking a free ride on my dime, as long as I can still sp-post at Poly.

asleepathewheel · July 23, 2003, 16:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka
Yes, it's the server load, server software and the scripts like vBulletin. Basically you can of course limit services by removing a few fora (you are correct with it). However (here's the point why you overestimate what can be done with that) it's only a short term solution as I'm sure ACS doesn't want to become smaller either and it would mean less active discussions. It gives very little benefit on a longer term (sure, you get some temporary relief), but that doesn't solve the fundamental issue that ACS is growing, not diminishing, so you can't start dropping off stuff. Also worth to notice is that the current situation isn't yet the same that Settler II is bad. No, it's not. Neither have I ever claimed so. The point is that it's just too overloaded as the site is too large for it. Thus more effective and longterm solutions are needed. Some temporary facelifts can actually become desctructive (i.e. the community diminishes).

ah, a reasonable post, much better than your previous response to me. Thankfully today its adequate (more or less) and hopefully the maintainence will shore it up a bit more. So what I say might be, and hopefully is, moot.

You say that shutting down forums would diminish the community, well, I would say that being offline for 5 or 6 hours a day diminishes the community. For evidence of that, just compare the conquests forum on CFC to the discussions here. We don't even have a separate forum here for it yet. (maybe no one's asked). A major draw of this site are the demo games, but they can hardly proceed when the site is down all the time. Especially the ISDG, kind of embarrassing when dealing with other websites' teams when we can't get messages on time through the poly channels and have to rendezvous at another site to have discussions. Shutting down the coverage on RoN and MoO3 and Galciv and the Offtopic (temporarily) would let this website get back to its mandate (or what I thought was its mandate) of being the top civ fansite in the world. I daresay its losing that crown to CFC.

When the money can be raised for the server and software to be upgraded, everything can be back online again. But for now at least, its not working out.

Again, hopefully these points will be moot in a few hours.