You think Iraq is bad? Look at Chechnya...

DanS · July 18, 2003, 21:07

I have to admit that over the last month or so, I've dreaded listening to the news on the radio in the morning, because that's when they announce the deaths from Iraq. Sometimes it's no soldiers. Sometimes it's one soldier.

But it must really suck to live in Russia and hear about 8 troops getting killed on Thursday in Chechnya, a speck of a province...

http://www.iht.com/articles/103241.html

And then about several terrorist attacks outside of Chechnya every day...

http://www.canada.com/news/story.asp...A-2204CF161E2C

It's got to be demoralizing. Do the Russian defense forces not have as good of force protection methods as the American troops, or is it just that the Chechnyans are more skilled fighters than the current crop of dead enders in Iraq?

Drake Tungsten · July 18, 2003, 21:08

Quote:

Do the Russian defense forces not have as good of force protection methods as the American troops

Yes.

DanS · July 18, 2003, 21:11

Well, you would think they could do something about it, like improving their force protection. How is it worse, and how could they make it better?

DanS · July 18, 2003, 21:13

Also, does anybody have death totals since '94 and especially over the last year or two?

Nubclear · July 18, 2003, 22:09

Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union (and before, of course) the Soviet/Russian military has gone down the tubes. As has the rest of the country in terms of economic stability or prosperity.

Russia is handling this situation very badly.

Giancarlo · July 18, 2003, 22:16

Actually tass I must dispute that. Putin has set aside more money for the military budget after the economy has steadily grown in the past couple of years.... still the situation is very bad. Chechnya is Russia´s forgotten war, that peaceniks tend to ignore because it doesn´t suit their agenda.

Nubclear · July 18, 2003, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
Actually tass I must dispute that. Putin has set aside more money for the military budget after the economy has steadily grown in the past couple of years....

While that may be true, it's still not going to save the Russian military anytime soon

Russia needs to let this war go and focus on more internal interests.

Lonestar · July 18, 2003, 23:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union (and before, of course) the Soviet/Russian military has gone down the tubes. As has the rest of the country in terms of economic stability or prosperity.

Russia is handling this situation very badly.

Let's be honest, the High water mark for the Red Army was Berlin, '45.

They weren't doing to well in the late '70's and '80's in Afghanistan...while at the time the American Military was undergoing a paradigm shift. The American Military went away from "Numbers" and towards "technology and training, training, training, and did we mention training?"

Of course, the sudden increased in the training tempo scared the sh*t outta the Russians...which caused them to piss more money away...so on and so forth.

GePap · July 18, 2003, 23:04

The Chechens are better organized and armed than the people we are currently fighting in Iraq to start with. And the Russians are using a mixe of troops, some profeesional, lots of them cosnrcipts and internal security forces as opposed to army forces.

Giancarlo · July 18, 2003, 23:06

Actually, almost all are conscripts from what I hear. Mostly drawn up from neighboring provinces next to Chechyna.

Sprayber · July 18, 2003, 23:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Tassadar5000

While that may be true, it's still not going to save the Russian military anytime soon

Russia needs to let this war go and focus on more internal interests.

To the Russians, Chechnya is an internal matter.

Waits for Serb to remind us how well the war is going

Giancarlo · July 18, 2003, 23:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Sprayber
Waits for Serb to remind us how well the war is going

He'll probably show up with a pravda links.. stand clear...

Lonestar · July 18, 2003, 23:40

Yeah, seriously. The thread title might as well said "Serb! Git yer arse over here!"

Nubclear · July 19, 2003, 00:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Sprayber

Not to all Russians.

Also, one must remember the morale of the Russian troops is low not because of defeats in Chenchya (that contributes, but...) because of how conscripts, etc are treated by more vetran troops. A lot of recruits are killed simply because theyre new, so demoralization starts at the beginning.

DanS · July 20, 2003, 02:46

Russia needs to let this war go and focus on more internal interests.

In the first war, I would have agreed with you. But giving up on the second war would send the wrong signal about the power of terrorist tactics.

KrazyHorse · July 20, 2003, 02:52

Man, iot's all symptomatic of similar dynamic. Russia's got it worse because thaey use shitiiesr troopse and are engages in more blatantly imperialistic role, but it ends up the same for the US. Crappy war, crappy result.

DanS · July 20, 2003, 02:59

The similarities are fewer than the differences.

KrazyHorse · July 20, 2003, 03:02

I donty' think so. But it's possible that that's symptomatic of my curent "state of mind and not reality, so I wont argute with you.

DanS · July 20, 2003, 03:10

"state of mind"?

KrazyHorse · July 20, 2003, 03:12

18 and counting.

Wokring an rthe 19th, in other words. Don't want to alienate you. What arte you doing up at this time on a Staturday?

Nubclear · July 20, 2003, 03:15

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS
Russia needs to let this war go and focus on more internal interests.

In the first war, I would have agreed with you. But giving up on the second war would send the wrong signal about the power of terrorist tactics.

But if they don't give up, neither will Chechen rebels. And the violence will continue.

Az · July 20, 2003, 03:17

Actually, I was very surprised at the amount of casualties the americans are facing. it seems that they're getting you, al the time.

In chechniya, just like in afghanistan, the terrain is much harder than the one in Iraq. Iraq is much flatter, while chechniya is full of mountains and vallies, just like Afghanistan.

maybe you guys need to learn a lesson or two from the IDF.

KrazyHorse · July 20, 2003, 03:20

iRAQQ IS ALL ABOUT URVBAN WARFARE. tHAT'S WHY it's crappy. Slower war, bu t can be maintaitned forever (countryside grueilla warfare is quicker, either way)...

Az · July 20, 2003, 03:22

I thought that most of the coloumns were engaged outside the cities, actually.

KrazyHorse · July 20, 2003, 03:23

Maybe. But I get the feeling that they're hisding inside cities. Attaqckes seem to hapent in suburbs (wsepcially Falujah and Baghdad)

I tghinh I mispselled Falujah.

Az · July 20, 2003, 03:29

i think you mispelled "mispelled","think", "attacks", "especialially", "hiding", and a whole lot of other words, but I won't hold it against you.

They could be hiding inside cities, but there are opportunities to hide in the desert as well.

All in all, I was rather dissapointed with the US Army. They probably don't have enough troops to maintain order. How many troops remain there, could you remind me?

KrazyHorse · July 20, 2003, 03:31

I thought they were at 1.5X10^5

Hlooe. Where thdid that come from? Two more Beecrs Iw il drink you now.

Giancarlo · July 20, 2003, 03:32

Azazel, he's drunk remember...

He is actually quite coherent it is stunning...

Anyways, I am impressed by the US Army.. I think they have enough. And they are creating this Iraqi Militia force that will maintain order and remove pressure from the US military.

Az · July 20, 2003, 03:41

150K.. that's not too much.

Fez: US soldiers are getting killed there daily. They're there for how long, 3 months? and there is already talk of a moral drop? wow.

KrazyHorse · July 20, 2003, 03:43

I5ts' easier to talk about morale drope when you;'re half a world a way.

Isarely put up with Lebanon for 15 years beacaues they wwere right next door. US wion;'t put up with Iraq for anywhere clsoe to as long.