You think Iraq is bad? Look at Chechnya... - Page 6

Az · July 24, 2003, 05:51

Actually, Where peace IS restored in chechniya, life certainly is better, without Sharia law, and gang order.

Hadn't you helped the Afghanis there, the Soviet Union would've prevailed, and women's emancipation, and the redestribution of land from the priviliged few would've occured.

I think the war in Afghanistan was mismanaged in two ways by the soviets:

a contingent of forces too small. the number of soldiers staying at any time in Afghanistan was small. Very small. less than what you currently have in Iraq, for example.

The use of Motorized and Mechanized Infantry, including their heavy gear, while Light Infantry had to be used.

Serb · July 24, 2003, 05:53

Quote:

Are you suggesting the Russians would have treated them better than they have, say, Chechnya?

And who told that Russians wanted to make Afghanistan a 16th republic of Soviet union?

The Mad Monk · July 24, 2003, 06:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Serb

And who told that Russians wanted to make Afghanistan a 16th republic of Soviet union?

...I'm not sure if you're saying that they would be treated better or not...

Serb · July 24, 2003, 06:24

I'm saying that comparison with Chechnya is incorrect.

The Mad Monk · July 24, 2003, 06:31

Then what comparison would be correct?

Serb · July 24, 2003, 06:58

Vietnam.
Both interventions were to protect friendly regimes, not to annex invaded countries.

Az · July 24, 2003, 10:39

only that the regime in Vietnam was worse than the Guerillas, and the regime in Afghanistan was better.

OliverFA · July 24, 2003, 18:14

First I would like to make a little comment here. Is not correct to say "the Chechenians" and "the Russians" because there is no such thing as a Chechenian colective opposed to the Russian colective. What there is here is a group of Chechenian people that arrogantly speak in the name of all the Chechenians and start spreading lies about how Russia opresses them. They try to look as the good guys and justify what cannot be justified (their horrible crimes and the MURDER of innocent people) by pretending they have some high ideals they don't have. Sadly we know a lot about this in Spain...

It is "normal" that the Russian army has problems protecting citizens about those terrorists that speak in the name of all the Chechenians. To bring terror and assassin lots of innocent people there are very few things needed, and this makes the task of countering it specially difficult, specially for an untrained army like the Russian. Terrorism is pretty new for them and they don't have experience.

The Chechenian terrorism is another part of the terrorism around the world. Sadly this is their own creature that has turned against them, because the USSR encouraged terrorism as a part of their plans to fight capitalist countries, so they are geting (part of) what they seeded. What makes it even more sad is that the regime than promoted this is no more the regime that governs nowadays in Russia (which is far from being perfect but definitely is much better than what governed the USSR for a great part of the last century).

Wow, I've made this very long. So, summarizing. The terrorism of a part of the Chechenian people is terrible and Russia doesn't deserve it.

Alexander's Horse · July 26, 2003, 23:27

See Chechnya today, see Iraq in a few years time.

Giancarlo · July 26, 2003, 23:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
See Chechnya today, see Iraq in a few years time.

That's crap.

DanS · July 26, 2003, 23:29

Oh, the return of Alexander Horse, the doomsayer. What would we do without him? Read "on the top of the Abrams tank" Fisk?

Alexander's Horse · July 26, 2003, 23:42

*shrug* I don't care. It's your people coming back in the body bags every week.

And the Bush Administration clearly has no idea how to extract itself with dignity from the Iraq mess.

Lancer · July 26, 2003, 23:44

Iraq is going great. Now that we know they have no WMD, we can nuke them anytime we want.

DanS · July 26, 2003, 23:46

And the Bush Administration clearly has no idea how to extract itself with dignity from the Iraq mess.

We're in there whole hog. No turning back. No way of "extracting" ourselves from the situation.

Alexander's Horse · July 26, 2003, 23:49

yes you are. You've gone completely nuts. We understand that now.

Lancer · July 26, 2003, 23:50

"We're in there whole hog. No turning back. No way of "extracting" ourselves from the situation."

A million barrels and counting...

"extracting"

Yeah, right.

DanS · July 26, 2003, 23:52

yes you are.

Well, then why would we be spending time with an extraction plan? Best to spend time doing it right.

Alexander's Horse · July 27, 2003, 02:14

I'm paid to see the world as it is, not as I would like it to be. That rules out the kind of wishful thinking most of you engage in.

Wishful thinking is what got America into the Iraq quagmire. It won't get you out.

Of course you'll never get out while you are still in denial about what a c*ck up the Iraq adventure has been.

Giancarlo · July 27, 2003, 02:29

Iraq isn't a quagmire. Alex, either get some common sense or leave this thread.

Alexander's Horse · July 27, 2003, 04:10

What you should be noticing now is the fear and bewilderment in the eyes of the US troops there. That's pretty startling at such an early stage of the campaign.

But very reminiscent of the Russian troops in Chechnya.

Az · July 27, 2003, 04:14

bullshit, in both cases.

Giancarlo · July 27, 2003, 04:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
What you should be noticing now is the fear and bewilderment in the eyes of the US troops there. That's pretty startling at such an early stage of the campaign.

But very reminiscent of the Russian troops in Chechnya.

You are so full of bullshit.

Actually I think the US are holding their lines after the death of Qusay and Uday. I think Saddam is getting his revenge now but he is gonna screw up and get himself killed.

Reminsicent of Chechnya? Do you have dyslexia? Or are you just blindly a doom sayer?

Oerdin · July 27, 2003, 06:28

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS
Well, you would think they could do something about it, like improving their force protection. How is it worse, and how could they make it better?

It's not just force protection it is also level of training and equipment. For example the when I was in Kosovo all of the Russians had very then reinforced flack vests made out of kevlar less then half the thickness everyone else had. By contrast most Americans Used Ranger Body Armor which has extra thick kevlar over layed with bullet proof ceramic plates. Who do you think is more likely to survive a shot to the chest?

Also remember that most Russian troops are poorly trained conscripts who are just trying to surviv long enough to finish their conscription and get back home. The Russian Army knows this guy isn't sticking around long (even if he survives) so they don't want to waste scarous money training him more then they have to.

Oerdin · July 27, 2003, 06:32

Alex, my old army unit is over there now and I get regular e-mails from several of my old army buddies. They've told me some scary things but all three of them sound very up beat and all of them make sure to tell me about good things which are happening as well as the bad things.

35 combat casualties in three months is really very light.

OliverFA · July 27, 2003, 07:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
I'm paid to see the world as it is, not as I would like it to be. That rules out the kind of wishful thinking most of you engage in.

Tell me who is paying you and I will tell you how the world "is"

OliverFA · July 27, 2003, 07:25

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS
And the Bush Administration clearly has no idea how to extract itself with dignity from the Iraq mess.

We're in there whole hog. No turning back. No way of "extracting" ourselves from the situation.

I wouldn't care much about these statements. Let's them say and believe what they want. The only thing that matters is what it is really happening. Just remember some of the "truths" said in the last times

"Afganistan will turn into a deadly trap"

"The coalition is losing the war"

and my favourite, from the Iraqui information minister.

"they have started to commit suicide under the walls of Baghdad"

So let's them say what they want. As Zanussi publicist would say: "Time will give us the reason"

With all those precendents I don't mind much

Oerdin · July 27, 2003, 07:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
only that the regime in Vietnam was worse than the Guerillas, and the regime in Afghanistan was better.

If you think the Guerillas weren't total subhuman scum then you know nothing about Vietnam Azazel.

I can agree that even a communist dictatorship would be better then religious fanatics though. Reagan was blinded by the desire to get even for the Soviet's proping up the VC so he siezed upon the Mujis in Afghanistan thinking he'd found he's way to get even. It came back and bit us for sure because the Mujis have no honor.

Az · July 27, 2003, 08:11

maybe, but how good was the southern government that you've supported in comparison to the north's?

Giancarlo · July 27, 2003, 08:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
maybe, but how good was the southern government that you've supported in comparison to the north's?

It wasn't worse... but not very good. Check out Kissinger's book on ending the Vietnam war. Click here...

Diem was a very brutal dictator... even Kissinger recognizes this.

Az · July 27, 2003, 08:17

I am sure you'll apperciate some books about the conflict from North Vietnam, as well.