David Kelly. How was his death the government's fault.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sava
But since you and Bodd's seem to think the BBC erred, I'm forced to disagree because you guys are generally off-base.

Can you think of a better source than the BBC's website and Dr. Kelly's own words to prove BBC error? It didn't even take that long to find his testimony on the site.

[Sava]

Can you think of a better source than the BBC's website and Dr. Kelly's own words to prove BBC error? It didn't even take that long to find his testimony on the site.

Well, the BBC is contradicting itself... their cover story indicates Kelly wasn't taken out of context. And on top of that, the NY Times, and just about everyone else is maintaining Kelly wasn't taken out of context. There's more evidence leaning the other way, DD... Sorry

BTW, sorry if anything I said before insults you... often times I try to poke fun, but end up sounding like more of an ass than I intended

[Wernazuma III]

Dear Brits, sorry to interrupt this thread, but there's one thing I didn't really get. Maybe it was covered badly in our news and you can inform me: Dr. Kelly comitted suicide by opening his veins, but his body was found "near his house". Doesn't that sound somehow strange? Personally, I'd open my veins in my bath in my house, wouldn't you too?

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Boddington's
"From the conversation I had with him, I do not see how he could make the authoritative statement he was making from the comments that I made."

Dr David Kelly.

This is what the issue is about.

I can think of one reason why Dr Kelly might have said that - and still given the BBC cause to think Campbell had been exaggerating the extent of Iraqs WMD.

It comes down to the magic words "off the record". Such words, added to a statement, give the source deniability while letting the media outlet publish the claim - with the proviso that "off the record" information sources cannot be directly quoted or attributed.

It might explain why the BBC were not happy about naming the source, while leaving Dr Kelly happy to say that he wasn't OFFICIALLY the source.

I can't say that's how the muddle happened - but it is a possibility.

[Sava]

"The BBC believes we accurately interpreted and reported the factual information obtained by us during interviews with Dr. Kelly," the statement continued.

Kelly's death plunges British Prime Minister Tony Blair into a deeper political crisis over the intelligence used to justify war in Iraq, reports CBS News reporter Charles D'Agata.

The statement said Kelly, an internationally respected weapons expert, had also been the source for a piece by reporter Susan Watts on the BBC's "Newsnight" analysis program.

Kelly had told a Parliamentary committee he spoke privately to Gilligan but did not recognize his claims in the reporter's piece and believed he was not its main source.

from http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in563997.shtml

The BBC announced Sunday that Kelly was the source of reports by the public broadcaster that Downing Street had "sexed up" a dossier on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction in order to justify going to war.

The announcement was made after the BBC had spoken with Kelly's family.

The dossier allegations caused a bitter row between the BBC and the British government. Kelly was grilled by a parliamentary committee, where he denied being the main source of a radio report by journalist Andrew Gilligan.

Gillian issued a separate statement Sunday, saying he "did not misquote or misrepresent" Kelly in his report.

Blair said he was "pleased that the BBC has made this announcement."

from http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe...lly/index.html

for some reason I cannot access the BBC site right now... but as soon as I can, I'll post today's cover story which says basically the same thing as these two excerpts.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Can you think of a better source than the BBC's website and Dr. Kelly's own words to prove BBC error? It didn't even take that long to find his testimony on the site.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3081027.stm

The BBC has disclosed that Dr David Kelly was the principal source for its controversial report claiming Downing Street "sexed up" an Iraq weapons dossier.

He told the MPs: "From the conversation I had I don't see how he could make the authoritative statement he was making from the comments I made."

According to television journalist Tom Mangold, a friend, Dr Kelly believed he was the source for about 60% of Mr Gilligan's report.

He said the corporation believed it correctly interpreted and reported the information obtained from Dr Kelly during interviews.

So nice try Dino, but it's far from settled.

[Sava]

thanks Hersh... that was the piece I was trying to access.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
So nice try Dino, but it's far from settled.

This is getting fun. Here's another quote: I did not see how on earth I could have been the primary source. - Dr. Kelly (from the transcript I linked to earlier)

[Sava]

I did not see how on earth I could have been the primary source.

Correct. This means the BBC report wasn't totally based upon Kelly. This does nothing to support your argument.


::tinfoilhait::

You can buy some from me DD... I accept paypal.

[GePap]

So it must have been Campbell...and hence the government's fault! Thanks DD!

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Dear Brits, sorry to interrupt this thread, but there's one thing I didn't really get. Maybe it was covered badly in our news and you can inform me: Dr. Kelly comitted suicide by opening his veins, but his body was found "near his house". Doesn't that sound somehow strange? Personally, I'd open my veins in my bath in my house, wouldn't you too?

and the guy went for a walk as usual - to kill himself in the woods!?!

maybe to blow his head off would be understandable (to go for that in the woods)... but slit the wrists,

who is crazy here...


... just to add, 59 yo man, who appeared calm in front of the parliament, to go and kill himself leaving his family behind ---- maybe to go and retire that is understandable, but commit suicide rather far fetched... but hey, people still beleive that Allende commited suicide when he was surrounded by Pinochets troups ... so you can convince the mass if you present your evidence in a correct manner, it wouldn't be the first or the last time around...

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GePap
Thanks DD!

I aim to please.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

I'm not Quincy, but I imagine it would be incredibly difficult to murder someone by slitting one of his wrists and leave it looking like a suicide.

If I was going to top myself, I'd go somewhere quiet and deserted. I wouldn't want my family to be the ones to find my body.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Next stop- who feels the government owed Kelly a duty of care- namely through protecting his identity?

[Evil Knevil]

maybe to blow his head off would be understandable

Gun laws, remember?

I hardly blame their Government for killing him. I guess he wanted to make sure it was done properly.... i.e that he wasn't caught bleeding by his wife...

Still the pressure put on him would have been intolerable. I blame the Government for villifying him in committee rather more than I blame the BBC for using his 'evidence' which he freely granted them --on the basis he remained anon, which the BBC duly granted.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
I'm not Quincy, but I imagine it would be incredibly difficult to murder someone by slitting one of his wrists and leave it looking like a suicide.

If I was going to top myself, I'd go somewhere quiet and deserted. I wouldn't want my family to be the ones to find my body.

well if you are going to kill someone than at least at that level you should be a pro and make it look good, so suicide is always the best, well drug the guy and slit his wrist, and hide him on a good place until he dies... and leave him there... why not? At least those people should know which substances will not be discovered by the standard cops...

but what was the reason that they couldn't indentify his body at first?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
why not?

It's the hesitation marks that would give it away before any drug screens come in.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Next stop- who feels the government owed Kelly a duty of care- namely through protecting his identity?

sure they owed him that, but was there anything in Kelly's personality pointing to suicidal tendencies?... this was merely a scandal, and he could retire easily afterwards... especially as he looked rather calm and not too upset before. I guess that all the media pressure was great, but it is certainly weird that it gave him the reason to commit suicide... leave the family behind... and such???

[Cruddy]

Hmm... autopsy should show how much painkiller was floating around his bloodstream... UK that would probably be Coproxomol or DF118. Pretty crude stuff by US standards.

Maybe he downed the pills, waited and hour, then did it. Toxicology will show that.

[Wernazuma III]

I agree with OFITG, that taking the case he really commited suicide, there ought to be quite a bit more behind it thatn mere "media pressure". Someone who was Weapon's Inspectorin Iraq had to be a calm guy, managing to resist high pressure, both from Iraqi officials and from western governments always seeking to get more info than there was (and that esp. the US government always made extremely high pressure on them throughout the 90s is well documented by other inspectors.)

[OneFootInTheGrave]

and check this out...

The words appeared to refer to officials at the Ministry of Defence and the UK intelligence agencies with whom he had sparred over interpretations of weapons reports, the New York Times reported.

The message gave no indication that he was depressed, and said he was waiting 'until the end of the week' before judging how his appearance before the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee had gone.

It also emerged last night that Kelly took his life 24 hours after being called to give evidence in private to the the Intelligence and Security Committee at Westminster.

The disclosures came after police confirmed that the body found in woodland two miles from the village of Southmoor on Friday was Kelly, who was suspected of being the BBC's mole in the row over the threat posed by Iraq. Purnell said a knife and an open packet of Coproxamol tablets, a paracetamol-based painkiller, had been found at the scene.

Details from the post-mortem examination, completed yesterday morning after the identification of the body at Oxford's John Radcliffe Hospital by his widow ended the mystery over how, if not why, the microbiologist died.

Purnell stressed there was 'no indication any other party was involved', although investigations were continuing.

Kelly left home last Thursday, having told his wife he was going for a walk. It appears likely that he took the knife and pills from the house. One witness who encountered Kelly in fields close to his home described him as amiable and smiling.

The quietly spoken scientist made his way to an isolated, hilltop copse and cut his wrist with a knife, probably after taking a quantity of the prescription-only painkillers.

The drug could have moderated pain or diluted blood. Either way, taking them was a mark of the meticulous attention to detail for which he was known. Police forensic officers could be seen checking the gardens and courtyard of Kelly's eighteenth-century farmhouse in Southmoor yesterday. Supt Purnell refused to say if Kelly left any suicide note.

as one would think circumstantial evidence is not very strong that he had suicide on his mind...

and e-mail a day before, in which he indicated "The message gave no indication that he was depressed, and said he was waiting 'until the end of the week' before judging how his appearance before the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee had gone."

he was waiting!!!... well I doubt he would be so convincing, if he had some serious emotional trauma... and even less something like that
"One witness who encountered Kelly in fields close to his home described him as amiable and smiling." ?!?

do you think that the intelligence services today are incapable of commiting a near perfect murder? I am sure they were able to do that before, and even more so today... there surely are plenty of motives... who knows maybe heads would roll or more after " It also emerged last night that Kelly took his life 24 hours after being called to give evidence in private to the the Intelligence and Security Committee at Westminster." investigation, and maybe this is a sign to others to shut up and dance... why not?

[Agathon]

Why would he kill himself if he had merely been misquoted? All he would have to have done is come forward and say that he was misquoted, which he didn't do. All he said is that he didn't believe he was the source for the most controversial comments.

I'm not saying it was a conspiracy since I think he did kill himself, but the question is why? Perhaps he lied to the select committee and really did say these things and knew that it would come out eventually. Or perhaps he had good reason to think he'd end up as the scapegoat for the whole Iraq enterprise.

The BBC did nothing to this man, they kept their confidentiality agreement with him and would not give him up. It's ridiculous to assert that they are responsible because they didn't name him until after he was dead. Thus he always had an out from the BBC, he could deny it.

[Cruddy]

OFITG - one minor point about that post. Comparing Coprox to paracetomol is like comparing a peashooter to an elephant gun.

I've seen Coprox'd dudes keep their hand over a gas ring and not feel a thing. Seriously good painkiller.

Agathon - there are ways to influence people to depression and suicide. The question of why will not come out in the coming inquiry, IMO.

[Sandman]

Who would kill themselves in the countryside? You'd run the risk of having foxes, badgers, rats and crows nibbling at your corpse. Which is more upsetting, finding the body in a bath, or finding the half-eaten body in the middle of a path?

[molly bloom]

People are making an extraordinary assumption: that suicides of necessity, appear depressed before they kill themselves.

It don't work that way, people.

Many relatives, friends, colleagues, workmates, are stunned by suicides precisely because the people in question were functioning at high levels before they killed themselves- they weren't obsessively listening to 'Gloomy Sunday' or Jakob Obrecht's Requiem.

In many cases they were going about their daily lives, dealing with things the same way as usual, and in the case of my friend's mother, visiting a hair salon before walking to a park, covering herself with petrol and setting fire to it.

This rather romanticized notion of suicides all looking chapfallen and dejected before killing themselves is something out of Victorian melodrama.

As for Kelly's being able to deal with stress as a U.N. Inspector- yes, but that doesn't imply being able to cope with media scrutiny- how many of us relish the thought of having our private and working lives discussed by the likes of the Daily Mail and The Sun, or having televised appearances before a House of Commons committee?

Not every microbiologist is a budding Big Brother contestant...

[Sava]

I suppose molly, but you do have to admit that the timing of his death is suspect... considering the importance of what he knew. A lot of powerful people are better off with this guy dead. And that must be considered.

[chequita guevara]

If I was his family, I'd definately hire a private pathologist to do the autopsy.

On the other hand, if I were to kill myself, I wouldn't do it at home, because that would leave Bunnygrrl to find the body, which would probably break her. Furthermore, she might intrude upon me before I had died. Finally, I might like my last moments on Earth to be someplace quiet and peaecful.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave


sure they owed him that, but was there anything in Kelly's personality pointing to suicidal tendencies?... this was merely a scandal, and he could retire easily afterwards... especially as he looked rather calm and not too upset before. I guess that all the media pressure was great, but it is certainly weird that it gave him the reason to commit suicide... leave the family behind... and such???

Why do you think the government should have protected his identity?

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Sandman
Who would kill themselves in the countryside? You'd run the risk of having foxes, badgers, rats and crows nibbling at your corpse. Which is more upsetting, finding the body in a bath, or finding the half-eaten body in the middle of a path?

I am answering this question as it stands, without regard to the title of the thread.

I think I would want to spare my family as much horror as possible, so I'd much rather the cops found me than my family.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Dr. Kelly comitted suicide by opening his veins, but his body was found "near his house". Doesn't that sound somehow strange? Personally, I'd open my veins in my bath in my house, wouldn't you too?

His wife was in the house, he walk out into the woods to do it.