Armies -- Only Offensive?

Shogun Gunner · July 20, 2003, 08:37

I have always loaded my best offensive units into armies, but I was wondering...has anyone created a "defensive army" made up of the best defensive units? It seems that would make an unbeatable defensive square if your fortify, build fortress...etc.

If not a total "defensive army", does anyone add one good defensive unit with two good offensive units? If so, any insight to experience or strategy would be useful to me in my current game. Damn Aztecs

Lastly, can GLs be created from winning armies with ELITE units? I've yet to see it...was wondering if anyone had an insight to this.

Thanks!

Kuciwalker · July 20, 2003, 08:50

Yes. Usually late-game, to protect my capitol. It's fun having a four elite mechanized-infantry army.

Harovan · July 20, 2003, 10:51

A lot of my armies are defensive. There's nothing better to protect a large stack of artillery than an army of 3 or 4 infantries.

GhengisFarb™ · July 20, 2003, 11:00

Yes, my strategy usually focuses on force protection and attempts to minimize combat losses. Defensive Armies are usually the best as they can survive a few long streaks of battle losses without losing any units.

Quasar1011 · July 20, 2003, 12:57

Defensive armies are great for pillaging. Place 3 infantry into an army. Send it into enemy territory, along with 1 or 2 cavalry. The AI tends to leave the army alone, and your cavalry can dart out each turn to pillage one tile each. I did this once, even though my cavalry had was badly wounded with 1 hit point left. Eventually the army/cavalry reached a hill with saltpeter on it, clear on the other side of my rival's territory, where they fortified.

steamthunk · July 20, 2003, 13:05

Interesting...never thought of this. I hate having units with 1 movement (e.g. infantry) mixed in with my tanks so I usually go all offensive units. However, my best invasions are always ones where I have at least 1/3 the number of defensive units as offensive for occupational duties. The blitzkrieg shuts down pretty fast if I have to leave 3 offensive units to guard each captured city - have often made wars much longer than necessary this way.

FrustratedPoet · July 20, 2003, 13:08

[Theseus mode]

Mixed Unit Armies! Mixed Unit Armies! Mixed Unit Armies!

[/Theseus mode]

GhengisFarb™ · July 20, 2003, 13:10

I will have to try that, Quasar1011.

vmxa1 · July 20, 2003, 13:15

I use armies for two things:

1- break down cities
2- pacify cities.

To breakdown cities requires offensive units.
To pacify you can use def or Off. I like to have one type of army to use in a city with resisters and not in danger.
Here left over Calv armies are great.
If the city could be attacked then MI armies are better.

Last Conformist · July 20, 2003, 16:59

I find defensive armies rather pointless for defending cities - it might quite possibly go down quicker than would 3-4 individual defenders, and if it survives, it won't heal instantly with a Barracks.

OTOH, Infantry armies are great for Arty guards. The AI appears to be paranoically scared to attack them on defensive terrain. But I only find it worthwhile during the "Trench War" part of the game, where big Arty stacks are the key to offensive success.

The pillaging trick works too, but I dislike tearing up the AI's land too much - it's soon going to be mine, after all!

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 19:41

Shogun, here ya go:

On the Utility and Use of Armies

I do defender Armies all the time...

In most games I'll usually improve early offensive slowmover Armies (e.g., 2xSwords or the equivalent), later upgraded with say a Rifle and an Infantry. I may do a 3 or 4x Infantry Army as well, and later add an MI too it (lose the movement, but it's a very fast way to build an almost indestructible unit).

There's also the all-purpose Army, btw... in AU 402 I played Scandinavia, and although I stopped at 1500AD, had been planning to add a Rifle to a 2xBerzerk Army.

In terms of fastmover defender Armies, I'll add an MI to a 3xTank Army (why slow down my upcoming MAs?), and I may do 4xMI Armies for critical positions.

Unfortunately, Armies (nor the units in them) cannot generate GLs.

vmxa1 · July 20, 2003, 20:12

One of the benefits of using an army to pacify a city (say at least 7 pop) is that the AI often will not counter attack it. Like I said, I love to bring up an obsolete army and use it to prevent resisters from rebeling. An army of Calvs can be used to snatch up a wounded straggler and get back into the city.
They can often withstand an attack from say an MI since they get teh bonus of the city and any other bonus that if available. Of course if you had three units, then the single attacker could not take the city anyway on that turn.
The healing is a sore spot to me, as the doc claimed that the patch made armies heal using a barracks, but that is not true.

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 21:10

They heal faster now, though... I'm OK with it.

GhengisFarb™ · July 20, 2003, 21:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Last Conformist
and if it survives, it won't heal instantly with a Barracks.

But then again the beaten individual units never heal at all...............

The Mad Monk · July 21, 2003, 00:44

Perhaps its best to have an army along with one or two indepentent units that can insta heal in a city, to cover for a badly wounded army?

MrWhereItsAt · July 21, 2003, 06:32

If you've only got an army left then things are looking dicey. They're useful, but not all that useful isolated at the front of a war, and they used a GL (in most cases), so they are expensive enough you do NOT want to lose them. Always use an Army to support your main stack of individual units, or keep the army out of harm's way to passify/defend a city.

Arrian · July 21, 2003, 10:46

I don't make defender armies much anymore. Sure, if there is a city or tile (luxury?) that I want to make absolutely sure, beyond all reasonable doubt, is safe, I'll stick a 3-4x infantry army on it.

The AI is generally afraid of armies. Even offensive armies. I've run around with a 3x Cavalry army in enemy territory, against an enemy that had Cavalry, and the AI went around it, rather than hit it. Me? I'd have hit that thing ASAP with Cav, and killed it. But the AI isn't like that. I think it is programmed to calculate combat odds for an individual battle (i.e. it's 1 cavalry unit against my 3x cav army), but not for multiple ones (i.e. 2 of its cavs hitting my army back to back). Clearly, it's worth a couple of cavalry to kill a 3x cav army. But the AI doesn't know that.

Another army that tends to be useful for stack defense and such is the 3x Legionary army (or even 2x legionary + 1x med inf). Those are nice toys. 12+ hp of 3 defense, like with the Cav army, the AI will be loathe to attack it.

My favorite mixed unit army is this: 3xTank + 1x Mech Inf. So balanced... no wasted movement points...

My favorite "pure" army? Well, Modern Armor, of course. But coming in second is the Samurai army. I don't recall ever pulling off a 4x elite* Samurai army (done it with Cav). Hmm...

-Arrian

p.s. As an aside, I am currently playing a game in which I've now seen 2 "properly made" AI armies. It used to be that I'd see an AI army and it would have like a knight, a spearman and a warrior in it. Somewhere along the line, I think Firaxis fixed that. Because both Egypt and Zululand have 3x Knight armies running around (too bad for the Zulu I'm on Egypt's side, and I've got Inf/Arty/Cav). I was pleased to see that.

Solomwi · July 21, 2003, 12:39

Arrian, until just last week, my favorite pure army was Modern Armor, too. I have a new favorite now, though. The pure Marine Army retains its amphibious assault characteristics (PTW 1.21). I didn't know this, and don't know how many others did. Even though it ties up another Transport (I subscribe to the overwhelming force doctrine on amphib operations especially, and therefore want at least eight attacking Marines), this thing is great for knocking out that one Infantry unit, and letting your other Marines deal with Pikemen, Riflemen and Spearmen.

trickey · July 21, 2003, 12:45

I agree with Arrian, the A.I does tend to shy away from armies all together, wheather they are offensive or defensive.

I don't usually make to many defensive armies, or many armies at all for that matter. The only way I can see myself making a defensive one is if I was planning a major assult on a city that was on another landmass. I would definatly not want to lose all my arty, so a 3-4 infantry army would be just what the doctor called for.

Theseus · July 21, 2003, 12:45

Ohhh, yeah, I was gonna try another combo in AU 402... 2xBerzerk+Marine.

Throwing that against a Spear is almost unfair. Makes me pant with lust.

Shogun Gunner · July 21, 2003, 20:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Shogun, here ya go:

On the Utility and Use of Armies

Theseus, thanks for the link! That was a great discussion about armies...I see you all covered this ground previously...

All: many good suggestions. I'm going to try a few of them out. Look out you foolish Aztecs!!!

Arrian · July 22, 2003, 09:29

Hmm, the Marine army could certainly have its uses.

It's just that I haven't researched the "Amphibious War" tech for, literally, years. Not since I was still learning the game. Once I played for a while, it became increasingly apparent that - in SP - true amphibious assaults were unecessary. It's easier to land on a mountain or hill (because the AI doesn't block them) and go from there.

-Arrian

Theseus · July 22, 2003, 10:43

But, man, it's FUN!!!

Solomwi · July 22, 2003, 20:46

Quote:

Once I played for a while, it became increasingly apparent that - in SP - true amphibious assaults were unecessary. It's easier to land on a mountain or hill (because the AI doesn't block them) and go from there.

I can't really disagree, but the one thing that approach can't do is take the city this turn, which is why I've started back researching AW. I like to stay in Dem in the late game, as I'm generally not a religious civ, and going ahead and getting that port, and most likely two or three more cities even in bad circumstances, tends to give me a nice jump start on what I can accomplish before WW forces me to make peace. If, however, I'm cash strapped or the tech race is too tight, I could see AW getting de-prioritized.

Also, getting back on topic a bit... watching that Marine Army take down a fortified MI in a city of 22 is a thing of beauty.

Theseus · July 22, 2003, 22:50

OOH RAH!!!

Solomwi · July 22, 2003, 23:02

LOL! Of course, Theseus, you nailed the most important reason to use Marines... not only is the invasion fun, they make planning it fun, too.

Jaybe · July 23, 2003, 02:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
But, man, it's FUN!!!

Most Definitely!

On the Utility and Use of Marines

cumi · July 23, 2003, 03:32

I use GL almost only for defensive purposes. I see no use of Army of MAs. MAs can attack three times and they are strong enough. If you load 3-4 strong defensive units, they are unbeatable.

You can walk through other empires with such an Army like a "wall" or a gigantic tsunamy (I am not sure if I spelled this correctly. I wanted to name the wave in the oceans generated by earthquake...or whatever...)

Panag · July 23, 2003, 09:24

hi ,

, often its funny how the AI in ptw uses its armies , .....

they tend to be more offensive then defensive , has anyone ever done the numbers on it , .......

btw , using para's or your USMC when they are elite in an army really rocks , .......

thats an other thing you never see the AI do , loading elite units in an army , ......

Soren , .....

have a nice day

vulture · July 23, 2003, 10:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Solomwi
Arrian, until just last week, my favorite pure army was Modern Armor, too. I have a new favorite now, though. The pure Marine Army retains its amphibious assault characteristics (PTW 1.21). I didn't know this, and don't know how many others did.

Now that is good news which I'd somehow missed before. I think marine armies just gained a new spot in my list of favourite things to do in civ. Now if only paratroopers could do airborn assaults, with pure paratroop armies retaining the ability, we'd have another deadly offensive weapon.