Thread Tools
Old July 20, 2003, 08:37   #1
Shogun Gunner
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildCivilization III Democracy GameCall to Power II MultiplayerCall to Power MultiplayerC3CDG Team BabylonPtWDG Vox ControliCivilization IV CreatorsC4DG Sarantium
Emperor
 
Shogun Gunner's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Potomac Falls, Virginia
Posts: 6,258
Armies -- Only Offensive?
I have always loaded my best offensive units into armies, but I was wondering...has anyone created a "defensive army" made up of the best defensive units? It seems that would make an unbeatable defensive square if your fortify, build fortress...etc.

If not a total "defensive army", does anyone add one good defensive unit with two good offensive units? If so, any insight to experience or strategy would be useful to me in my current game. Damn Aztecs

Lastly, can GLs be created from winning armies with ELITE units? I've yet to see it...was wondering if anyone had an insight to this.

Thanks!
Shogun Gunner is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 08:50   #2
Kuciwalker
Deity
 
Kuciwalker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
Yes. Usually late-game, to protect my capitol. It's fun having a four elite mechanized-infantry army.
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
Kuciwalker is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 10:51   #3
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 06:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
A lot of my armies are defensive. There's nothing better to protect a large stack of artillery than an army of 3 or 4 infantries.
Harovan is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 11:00   #4
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
Yes, my strategy usually focuses on force protection and attempts to minimize combat losses. Defensive Armies are usually the best as they can survive a few long streaks of battle losses without losing any units.
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 12:57   #5
Quasar1011
Warlord
 
Quasar1011's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mobile AL
Posts: 191
Defensive armies are great for pillaging. Place 3 infantry into an army. Send it into enemy territory, along with 1 or 2 cavalry. The AI tends to leave the army alone, and your cavalry can dart out each turn to pillage one tile each. I did this once, even though my cavalry had was badly wounded with 1 hit point left. Eventually the army/cavalry reached a hill with saltpeter on it, clear on the other side of my rival's territory, where they fortified.
__________________
My words are backed by... Hey! Who stole my uranium??!!!
Quasar1011 is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 13:05   #6
steamthunk
Chieftain
 
steamthunk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 99
Interesting...never thought of this. I hate having units with 1 movement (e.g. infantry) mixed in with my tanks so I usually go all offensive units. However, my best invasions are always ones where I have at least 1/3 the number of defensive units as offensive for occupational duties. The blitzkrieg shuts down pretty fast if I have to leave 3 offensive units to guard each captured city - have often made wars much longer than necessary this way.
steamthunk is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 13:08   #7
FrustratedPoet
PtWDG Gathering Storm
Emperor
 
FrustratedPoet's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: All Glory To The Hypnotoad!
Posts: 4,223
[Theseus mode]

Mixed Unit Armies! Mixed Unit Armies! Mixed Unit Armies!

[/Theseus mode]
__________________
If I'm posting here then Counterglow must be down.
FrustratedPoet is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 13:10   #8
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
I will have to try that, Quasar1011.
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 13:15   #9
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
I use armies for two things:

1- break down cities
2- pacify cities.


To breakdown cities requires offensive units.
To pacify you can use def or Off. I like to have one type of army to use in a city with resisters and not in danger.
Here left over Calv armies are great.
If the city could be attacked then MI armies are better.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 16:59   #10
Last Conformist
King
 
Last Conformist's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: of Outer Space
Posts: 2,210
I find defensive armies rather pointless for defending cities - it might quite possibly go down quicker than would 3-4 individual defenders, and if it survives, it won't heal instantly with a Barracks.

OTOH, Infantry armies are great for Arty guards. The AI appears to be paranoically scared to attack them on defensive terrain. But I only find it worthwhile during the "Trench War" part of the game, where big Arty stacks are the key to offensive success.

The pillaging trick works too, but I dislike tearing up the AI's land too much - it's soon going to be mine, after all!
__________________
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
Last Conformist is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 19:41   #11
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
Shogun, here ya go:

On the Utility and Use of Armies

I do defender Armies all the time...

In most games I'll usually improve early offensive slowmover Armies (e.g., 2xSwords or the equivalent), later upgraded with say a Rifle and an Infantry. I may do a 3 or 4x Infantry Army as well, and later add an MI too it (lose the movement, but it's a very fast way to build an almost indestructible unit).

There's also the all-purpose Army, btw... in AU 402 I played Scandinavia, and although I stopped at 1500AD, had been planning to add a Rifle to a 2xBerzerk Army.

In terms of fastmover defender Armies, I'll add an MI to a 3xTank Army (why slow down my upcoming MAs?), and I may do 4xMI Armies for critical positions.

Unfortunately, Armies (nor the units in them) cannot generate GLs.
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 20:12   #12
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
One of the benefits of using an army to pacify a city (say at least 7 pop) is that the AI often will not counter attack it. Like I said, I love to bring up an obsolete army and use it to prevent resisters from rebeling. An army of Calvs can be used to snatch up a wounded straggler and get back into the city.
They can often withstand an attack from say an MI since they get teh bonus of the city and any other bonus that if available. Of course if you had three units, then the single attacker could not take the city anyway on that turn.
The healing is a sore spot to me, as the doc claimed that the patch made armies heal using a barracks, but that is not true.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 21:10   #13
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
They heal faster now, though... I'm OK with it.
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old July 20, 2003, 21:44   #14
GhengisFarb™
lifer
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG Glory of WarCivilization II Democracy GameCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Deity
 
GhengisFarb™'s Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11,289
Quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
and if it survives, it won't heal instantly with a Barracks.
But then again the beaten individual units never heal at all...............
GhengisFarb™ is offline  
Old July 21, 2003, 00:44   #15
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
Perhaps its best to have an army along with one or two indepentent units that can insta heal in a city, to cover for a badly wounded army?
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old July 21, 2003, 06:32   #16
MrWhereItsAt
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy GamePtWDG RoleplayAlpha Centauri PBEMSpanish CiversCall to Power Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontPtWDG2 Latin LoversACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansC3CDG The Lost BoysCivilization III Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton Team
Deity
 
MrWhereItsAt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: That's DR WhereItsAt...
Posts: 10,157
If you've only got an army left then things are looking dicey. They're useful, but not all that useful isolated at the front of a war, and they used a GL (in most cases), so they are expensive enough you do NOT want to lose them. Always use an Army to support your main stack of individual units, or keep the army out of harm's way to passify/defend a city.
__________________
Consul.

Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!
MrWhereItsAt is offline  
Old July 21, 2003, 10:46   #17
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
I don't make defender armies much anymore. Sure, if there is a city or tile (luxury?) that I want to make absolutely sure, beyond all reasonable doubt, is safe, I'll stick a 3-4x infantry army on it.

The AI is generally afraid of armies. Even offensive armies. I've run around with a 3x Cavalry army in enemy territory, against an enemy that had Cavalry, and the AI went around it, rather than hit it. Me? I'd have hit that thing ASAP with Cav, and killed it. But the AI isn't like that. I think it is programmed to calculate combat odds for an individual battle (i.e. it's 1 cavalry unit against my 3x cav army), but not for multiple ones (i.e. 2 of its cavs hitting my army back to back). Clearly, it's worth a couple of cavalry to kill a 3x cav army. But the AI doesn't know that.

Another army that tends to be useful for stack defense and such is the 3x Legionary army (or even 2x legionary + 1x med inf). Those are nice toys. 12+ hp of 3 defense, like with the Cav army, the AI will be loathe to attack it.

My favorite mixed unit army is this: 3xTank + 1x Mech Inf. So balanced... no wasted movement points...

My favorite "pure" army? Well, Modern Armor, of course. But coming in second is the Samurai army. I don't recall ever pulling off a 4x elite* Samurai army (done it with Cav). Hmm...

-Arrian

p.s. As an aside, I am currently playing a game in which I've now seen 2 "properly made" AI armies. It used to be that I'd see an AI army and it would have like a knight, a spearman and a warrior in it. Somewhere along the line, I think Firaxis fixed that. Because both Egypt and Zululand have 3x Knight armies running around (too bad for the Zulu I'm on Egypt's side, and I've got Inf/Arty/Cav). I was pleased to see that.
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old July 21, 2003, 12:39   #18
Solomwi
lifer
C3CDG Desolation RowPtWDG2 Monty PythonCiv4 SP Democracy GameApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
Solomwi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Posts: 3,283
Arrian, until just last week, my favorite pure army was Modern Armor, too. I have a new favorite now, though. The pure Marine Army retains its amphibious assault characteristics (PTW 1.21). I didn't know this, and don't know how many others did. Even though it ties up another Transport (I subscribe to the overwhelming force doctrine on amphib operations especially, and therefore want at least eight attacking Marines), this thing is great for knocking out that one Infantry unit, and letting your other Marines deal with Pikemen, Riflemen and Spearmen.
Solomwi is offline  
Old July 21, 2003, 12:45   #19
trickey
Civilization III Democracy GameNever Ending StoriesRise of Nations MultiplayerPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Prince
 
trickey's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
Posts: 740
I agree with Arrian, the A.I does tend to shy away from armies all together, wheather they are offensive or defensive.

I don't usually make to many defensive armies, or many armies at all for that matter. The only way I can see myself making a defensive one is if I was planning a major assult on a city that was on another landmass. I would definatly not want to lose all my arty, so a 3-4 infantry army would be just what the doctor called for.
trickey is offline  
Old July 21, 2003, 12:45   #20
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
Ohhh, yeah, I was gonna try another combo in AU 402... 2xBerzerk+Marine. Throwing that against a Spear is almost unfair. Makes me pant with lust.
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old July 21, 2003, 20:28   #21
Shogun Gunner
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildCivilization III Democracy GameCall to Power II MultiplayerCall to Power MultiplayerC3CDG Team BabylonPtWDG Vox ControliCivilization IV CreatorsC4DG Sarantium
Emperor
 
Shogun Gunner's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Potomac Falls, Virginia
Posts: 6,258
Quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
Shogun, here ya go:

On the Utility and Use of Armies
Theseus, thanks for the link! That was a great discussion about armies...I see you all covered this ground previously...

All: many good suggestions. I'm going to try a few of them out. Look out you foolish Aztecs!!!
Shogun Gunner is offline  
Old July 22, 2003, 09:29   #22
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
Hmm, the Marine army could certainly have its uses.

It's just that I haven't researched the "Amphibious War" tech for, literally, years. Not since I was still learning the game. Once I played for a while, it became increasingly apparent that - in SP - true amphibious assaults were unecessary. It's easier to land on a mountain or hill (because the AI doesn't block them) and go from there.

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old July 22, 2003, 10:43   #23
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
But, man, it's FUN!!!
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old July 22, 2003, 20:46   #24
Solomwi
lifer
C3CDG Desolation RowPtWDG2 Monty PythonCiv4 SP Democracy GameApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
Solomwi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Posts: 3,283
Quote:
Once I played for a while, it became increasingly apparent that - in SP - true amphibious assaults were unecessary. It's easier to land on a mountain or hill (because the AI doesn't block them) and go from there.
I can't really disagree, but the one thing that approach can't do is take the city this turn, which is why I've started back researching AW. I like to stay in Dem in the late game, as I'm generally not a religious civ, and going ahead and getting that port, and most likely two or three more cities even in bad circumstances, tends to give me a nice jump start on what I can accomplish before WW forces me to make peace. If, however, I'm cash strapped or the tech race is too tight, I could see AW getting de-prioritized.

Also, getting back on topic a bit... watching that Marine Army take down a fortified MI in a city of 22 is a thing of beauty.
Solomwi is offline  
Old July 22, 2003, 22:50   #25
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
OOH RAH!!!
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old July 22, 2003, 23:02   #26
Solomwi
lifer
C3CDG Desolation RowPtWDG2 Monty PythonCiv4 SP Democracy GameApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
Solomwi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Posts: 3,283
LOL! Of course, Theseus, you nailed the most important reason to use Marines... not only is the invasion fun, they make planning it fun, too.
Solomwi is offline  
Old July 23, 2003, 02:12   #27
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:59
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
Quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
But, man, it's FUN!!!
Most Definitely!
On the Utility and Use of Marines
Jaybe is offline  
Old July 23, 2003, 03:32   #28
cumi
Warlord
 
cumi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Austria
Posts: 180
I use GL almost only for defensive purposes. I see no use of Army of MAs. MAs can attack three times and they are strong enough. If you load 3-4 strong defensive units, they are unbeatable.

You can walk through other empires with such an Army like a "wall" or a gigantic tsunamy (I am not sure if I spelled this correctly. I wanted to name the wave in the oceans generated by earthquake...or whatever...)
cumi is offline  
Old July 23, 2003, 09:24   #29
Panag
MacCivilization II Democracy Game: ExodusC4BtSDG Rabbits of Caerbannog
Emperor
 
Panag's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Posts: 8,117
hi ,

, often its funny how the AI in ptw uses its armies , .....

they tend to be more offensive then defensive , has anyone ever done the numbers on it , .......

btw , using para's or your USMC when they are elite in an army really rocks , .......

thats an other thing you never see the AI do , loading elite units in an army , ......

Soren , .....

have a nice day
Panag is offline  
Old July 23, 2003, 10:15   #30
vulture
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Mohammed Al-SahafC4DG Gathering Storm
King
 
vulture's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:59
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 1,257
Quote:
Originally posted by Solomwi
Arrian, until just last week, my favorite pure army was Modern Armor, too. I have a new favorite now, though. The pure Marine Army retains its amphibious assault characteristics (PTW 1.21). I didn't know this, and don't know how many others did.
Now that is good news which I'd somehow missed before. I think marine armies just gained a new spot in my list of favourite things to do in civ. Now if only paratroopers could do airborn assaults, with pure paratroop armies retaining the ability, we'd have another deadly offensive weapon.
vulture is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:59.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team