July 30, 2003, 11:59
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#31
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Prince
Local Time: 22:18
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 551
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Quote:
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Though if I was going to mess around with things like that, I would make the "immortal" the bowman (immortals were apparently lightly armed archer types, not badass swordsmen).
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Persia had a group of elite warriors called 'immortals'. There were exactly 10,000 of them. When one died, they replaced him with another one.
I put the traits of China to Militaristic, Scientific. I'm not saying the other traits don't fit, I just think those two fit the best.
IMO Mao did great things to industrialize and modernize China but he also was a murderer who stamped out Chinese culture, religion, and confucism. I think one of the great ancient emperors would be a better choice.
The problem with GePap's idea is that Persia is my long-time favorite civilization (starting out with AoE 1 several years ago) and I like the traits they have now. Plus, I think Rome could be commercial, it would still fit, and there's nothing wrong with Persia being industrial and scientific because those traits aren't frequently used.
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"The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, 'This is mine' and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: 'Beware of listening to this imposter; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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July 30, 2003, 13:47
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#32
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Deity
Local Time: 02:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
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Indeed what reading can we rely upon? Who is doing the writing? I mean Mussolini made the trains run on time, was he good for Italy?
I would agree he had an enourmous impact on China, one could make the case that is was not positive.
Anyway, sorry about the OT. I will stop mine now.
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July 30, 2003, 14:27
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#33
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Prince
Local Time: 06:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 310
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They really should have had Emperor Qin as the leader for China. Makes a lot more sense since he was the one that began China's existence as a single empire when he conquered the warring states.
But if they have Mao as the leader, they might as well included a "Cult of Personality" wonder. 
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"When we begin to regulate, there is naming,
but when there has been naming
we should also know when to stop.
Only by knowing when to stop can we avoid danger." - Lao-zi, the "Dao-de-jing"
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July 31, 2003, 00:24
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#34
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King
Local Time: 06:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Amish Country
Posts: 2,184
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Quote:
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Originally posted by johncmcleod
IMO Mao did great things to industrialize and modernize China but he also was a murderer who stamped out Chinese culture, religion, and confucism. I think one of the great ancient emperors would be a better choice.
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And Stalin did great things to industrialize the Soviet Union? In either case I would not call a process that resulted in the deaths and relocations of millions as "great". I hope no one suggests using Pol Pot to represent Khmer.
Since Civ starts in ancient times I think using the first emperor to be best. However, it might be more interesting to change leaders as the eras change in the game (to use China as an example: First Emperor, the Dowager Emperess, Sun-Yat-Sen, and then Mao). 
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July 31, 2003, 01:34
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#35
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Deity
Local Time: 02:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
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I like the idea of changing leaders over years, but that will cause a few problems.
New civs that do not have a presence over all of this history (most). People not knowing the leader (no big deal).
Need for more pictures/art and data. Cost space and money.
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July 31, 2003, 02:11
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#36
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Deity
Local Time: 00:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: of naughty
Posts: 10,579
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What people seem to forget is that the leaders don't necessarily reflect people who did "good" as we can find some fault in almost all of them, but because they were influential to their nations. Was Mao good or bad? The question is moot since no one can deny his influence on modern China, same with Stalin being used in Civ1.
Did you all know Hitler and Stalin both won Men of The Year awards at Time? Why? Not because they were peace loving, kind individuals but because they did things, good or bad, which shaped history. That is the criteria upon which leaders for civ should be chosen, simple as that, like it or not.
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July 31, 2003, 02:52
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#37
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King
Local Time: 06:18
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Amish Country
Posts: 2,184
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Time Men of the Year were selected for being a big influence on the news and events of the year, not for shaping history. I have no problem with Hitler and Stalin being selected because they were more newsworthy the year they were selected.
I agree that civ leaders should be chosen for having the most profound influence in shaping their civ's history.
What you said is apples and oranges. Men of the Year and Civ leaders do not equate.
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"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." -- JFK Inaugural, 1961
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July 31, 2003, 04:47
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#38
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Emperor
Local Time: 06:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: All Glory To The Hypnotoad!
Posts: 4,223
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Vince278
Time Men of the Year were selected for being a big influence on the news and events of the year, not for shaping history.
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While they're not exactly the same thing, of course, there's an awful lot of cross-over between "being very newsworthy" and "shaping history", particularly when it refers to leaders of major world powers.
In the case of Stalin and Mao the reason they were newsworthy is because what they were doing was, for better or worse, changing the face of the world.
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If I'm posting here then Counterglow must be down.
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July 31, 2003, 05:23
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#39
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Deity
Local Time: 00:18
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Obviously Men of the Year and Civ leaders do not equate since there hasn't been a Man of the Year edition since 4000 BC 
It was simply an example to show how people who might be considered "evil" have done a lot to this world, for good or bad, and moreso, have done a lot to their countries.
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A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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July 31, 2003, 06:01
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#40
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King
Local Time: 06:18
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Amish Country
Posts: 2,184
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Master Zen
Obviously Men of the Year and Civ leaders do not equate since there hasn't been a Man of the Year edition since 4000 BC
It was simply an example to show how people who might be considered "evil" have done a lot to this world, for good or bad, and moreso, have done a lot to their countries.
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Apples and oranges again; however you say it it still does not necessarily make such individuals Civ leader worthy.
I nominate Og the Hunter for 4000BC Man of the Year.
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July 31, 2003, 19:40
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#41
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Local Time: 08:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
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Quote:
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Originally posted by PLATO1003
I definately agree that Rome should be Ind/Mil. It seems kind of strange that they were not from the beginning. After all, they were among the most prolific builders and by far the most militaristic of the late ancient cultures.
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I think they have been made Militaristic/Commercial because Commercial allows to conquer a huge empire while making it profitable. However, I agree they should be Mil / Ind, now that hopefully China will stop being so 
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August 1, 2003, 10:07
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#42
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Deity
Local Time: 02:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
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Quote:
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I nominate Og the Hunter for 4000BC Man of the Year
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HERETIC! BOW BEFORE GROG!
-Arrian
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grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
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August 1, 2003, 11:17
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#43
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Deity
Local Time: 02:18
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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Well if Grog has his tank, I guess I had better.
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August 1, 2003, 11:50
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#44
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Prince
Local Time: 01:18
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: of Bananas
Posts: 998
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they should have a trait "Crazy about wall building"
<south park> I'll get you mongolians!!!!</south park>
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