View Poll Results: Do you hate the type of people I described?
Yes 21 41.18%
No 10 19.61%
No-and I think you(Vesayen) is a moron 18 35.29%
I only eat bannanas!!!! 2 3.92%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old July 27, 2003, 08:03   #61
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So?
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Old July 27, 2003, 09:05   #62
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Let's just stop eating cows, and free them into the wilderness so they can be shot if they start eating our corn fields, starve to death, get diseases or get eaten by the few bears and wolves that remain.
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Old July 27, 2003, 09:35   #63
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...and that's why hunting is a good thing.
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Old July 27, 2003, 10:04   #64
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"Vesayen you might as well yell at everybody in the world... You're telling me you've never bought some nike shoes, or some reebok sweater hmmm?"



Yeap, exactly right. I am very carefull about everything I buy. It's not as hard as you think.










"Slave labour by the way is bad, but you don't have to exaggerate. In some areas the work these companies provide (for the wrong reasons of course) is the only means of earning money. If you would move out those factories the people would object to that as they would have nothing now to earn money with. I know it's not fun if you're a child and you have to work in a factory or something all day, but it's better than nothing."

No, slavery is slavery......... is a slave better off being given a piece of horse **** every night to eat, or being free but having to find another means of sustinence?









"The idea is to gradually improve the situation there, rising the wages after a while etc, unfortunately that's something Nike and Reebok have to do, and they're not always inclined to do that!"

That smacks REDICULOUSLY of imperialism so dont even try to use that rationale....... "The natives cant handle themselves, so we'll manage them now, but gradually we'll raise them to our level!" ask the native americans, africans and native australians how that worked out! I dont think you'll like there response very much.






"This doesn't mean I don't care for slavery or other things, but I think you are confusing things here, being a veggie hasn't got anything to do with ignoring poor people.
About the leather jacket things. Leather is a byproduct and yes it would as a matter of fact go to waste anyway. Nothing wrong with leather... You can make leather out of human skin as well, I have no problems with that, just like ppl can use my organs when I suddenly die in a car crash or something.. won't need my body anymore anyway."

Your trying to wave your hand, say "pah!" and expect that to be justification, it isnt. The problem is quite simply, and one you havent addressed, that you are concerning yourself with animal suffering over human suffering, which seems barbaric.













Quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
That you would judge people at all because of what they eat is incredibly prejudiced, like judging someone on their religion. Why should we care about human rights over animal rights? Why can't we care about both too? If someone doesn't shop at GAP, but is a vegetarian, is that alright by you then?

Why should we care about humans rights over animal rights? Because we are humans, and they are animals......... I'm NOT saying we shouldnt care about animals-we should, im a big animal rights activist, my point is that if you care about animal rights, you should care about human rights as well, and give at LEAST as much attention to humans rights as animals. If someone is consistent with their aproach(vegitarian AND dosent buy slave made goods) then they have my UTMOST respect, I just cant stand the hypocrits who only do it half way, and the wrong way(with animals over humans).
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Old July 27, 2003, 10:23   #65
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ask the native americans
Would you please leave us out of this? Most of us with Native American blood are very well adjusted and reasonably well off, thankyouveryumuch.
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Old July 27, 2003, 17:14   #66
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This is why I think people who want to reduce factory farming should encourage hunting.
Yes, because you could probably feed all the clerks working in Pentagon for a day if everyone in America got their machine guns and hunted hard enough.
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Old July 27, 2003, 17:22   #67
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Oh sure, it's ridiculously easy to hunt cows, especially when they're already penned up.
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Old July 27, 2003, 17:28   #68
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Yes, because you could probably feed all the clerks working in Pentagon for a day if everyone in America got their machine guns and hunted hard enough.
...and the next day, CANADA!
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Old July 27, 2003, 17:53   #69
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Animals do have fear before being slaughtered, when they see other animals getting slaughtered right before them. It's nNot a little fear, but the worst fear a live being can have, because it goes straight against its survival instinct.
I've heard that very many cows crap right before being slaughtered, some others passing out, and IIRC, some even do die of fear in the mass slaughterhouses. These places are on par with death camps, and the animals there understand it perfectly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a veggie, and I don't intend to be. However, to claim the animals don't suffer or don't understand what is happening is plain wrong. The suffering in these places is terrible, and could be alleviated with a few cheap changes : larger cattle wagons, smaller and more spread slaughterhouses (reduces cattle stress as well as transportation time), lower slaughtering speed, so that the following beasts cannot see or hear the previous one die.
The end price would hardly be higher, since most of meat price comes from transportation, distribution and profits.

About humane treatment of animals during their life : indeed, a chicken that is not raised in batteries has a much better taste than a battery one, and is healthier: battery chickens (or any other animal) do not exercize and end up with too much fat and amorphed muscle. They are much worse than healthy chicken who got to run in the backyars. Unfortunately, these chicken are also much, much more expansive to raise, and can only be bought by middle classes or better who happen to take care of their diet.

The way you feed the animals is very important too. Because farmers went for the cheapest crap, we ended up with the mad cow disease. The end taste can change as well, although it is harder to detect than the end taste between a healthy and a battery animal.
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Old July 27, 2003, 18:01   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Animals do have fear before being slaughtered, when they see other animals getting slaughtered right before them. It's nNot a little fear, but the worst fear a live being can have, because it goes straight against its survival instinct.
I've heard that very many cows crap right before being slaughtered, some others passing out, and IIRC, some even do die of fear in the mass slaughterhouses. These places are on par with death camps, and the animals there understand it perfectly.

Yep. It's really sad situation...
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Old July 27, 2003, 18:24   #71
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Feeling spiteful, I've chosen option '3'.

But I couldn't care less what people do and don't eat. Just leave my Big Macs and Coney Dogs the frick alone!!
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Old July 27, 2003, 22:34   #72
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You've missed a few major reasons:

Religious reasons- one part of Buddhism is vegetarianism.

Ecological reasons- meat production requires more land and resource use than equivalent plants.
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Old July 27, 2003, 22:53   #73
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I am not a veggetarian, but I find the way the animals are treated to be disgusting. I think people eat waaaaaaaay to much meat. growing plant products take much less land area than ranching, and that is better on the enviroment. cold blooded animals are another way to save space, they only need 10% the food that warm-blooded animals need. (there is an species of iguana sometimes called the chicken of the trees ). That is why I support aquaculture, raising fish takes less space than raisng mammals and birds, and will reduce the ecological damage from comercial fishing. also, hunting of animals for "supernatural" medicines in oriental markets should be totally banned, as should the killing of whales and sharks. The UN should help protect nature reserves free from poachers, I think poachers should be killed on the spot, that should stop it.
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Old July 27, 2003, 22:56   #74
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go vegeterrians

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(Who is vege because he can't stand the thought of eating meat)
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Old July 28, 2003, 00:20   #75
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blah! blah! growing plants takes up more space. *yawn*

Show me a plant that has as much protein (and B12 for that matter) as meat and tastes just as good.

I'm waiting. I'll eat it in a heartbeat if it meets the above qualifications.
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Old July 28, 2003, 00:36   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
blah! blah! growing plants takes up more space. *yawn*

Show me a plant that has as much protein (and B12 for that matter) as meat and tastes just as good.

I'm waiting. I'll eat it in a heartbeat if it meets the above qualifications.
Plants take up less space pound for pound.

DON"T DISS THE BEANS DISS!

Oh, yeah, read what I sais about FISH.

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Old July 28, 2003, 00:39   #77
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well I like my fish and chips.

But currently we are depleting the oceans of fish. I really didn't think we could impact a huge ocean like that, but we are. We are overfishing.

beans aren't bad. But they aren't what I prefer. In fact I only like refried beans in mexican food. I really don't eat any other kind of bean.
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Old July 28, 2003, 00:47   #78
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Originally posted by Dissident
well I like my fish and chips.

But currently we are depleting the oceans of fish. I really didn't think we could impact a huge ocean like that, but we are. We are overfishing.

beans aren't bad. But they aren't what I prefer. In fact I only like refried beans in mexican food. I really don't eat any other kind of bean.
Have you ever heard of raising fish (Aquaculture)?

BTW, I beans.
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Old July 28, 2003, 01:02   #79
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there was an article in a recent Discover magazine that illustrated raising fish in the gulf of California. Fish farms I think is what they were called. And there have also been articles about no-fishing zones to help restore the balance.

I do believe with careful management we could prevent the oceans from being completely depleted of fish.

But that would require restrictions of fishing zones.

Would a republican administration support these things? Not likely.
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Old July 28, 2003, 03:35   #80
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Actually, the United States and Canada are cooperating extensively on protecting Cod fisheries, at the expense of our own fishing industry.

Damn European cod poachers.
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Old July 28, 2003, 04:05   #81
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eat soy

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Old July 28, 2003, 04:15   #82
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tsss I think it this is utter ridiculous. When someone steps off from the mass platform everything he/she does suddenly needs to be in perfect harmony whereas all the pigs that go with the mass doesnt matter what they do.
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Old July 28, 2003, 04:22   #83
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The answer to this is eat more spam.
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Old July 28, 2003, 05:35   #84
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Well, I don't eat bits of dead mammals because they make me feel bad. Somthing to do with all the crap that is injected into and fed to the animals before killing them. I do eat fish though.

What I really loathe, and possibly what was the original point of this thread, are the veggie cretins who want EVERYONE to stop eating meat to satisfy their own pshchological inadequacies. These people should be shipped off to the Falkland Islands or somewhere similar and left to fend for themselves.
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Old July 28, 2003, 05:49   #85
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Quote:
while stepping over a homeless person on the street
Let's start a campaign, Vesayen:

Shoot a deer, feed a homeless person.

Secondly, regarding aquaculture, there was a really good article published awhile ago that I will try to paraphrase. Essentially, they argued that aquaculture is a net loss in terms of biomass; rather than aquaculture reducing demand for fish products, aquaculture increases the demand.

So the less fish we get from fishing the less we will be able to develop aquaculture. There are also some problems with sea lice in aquaculture, with the pre-requisite gross pictures of baby salmon infested with insects covering over half of their body.
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Old July 28, 2003, 06:15   #86
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Quote:
Yeap, exactly right. I am very carefull about everything I buy. It's not as hard as you think.
don't bullshit me, you don't even know that a lot of things you buy are made through slave labour; it doesn't say in big red letters that it's made through slave labour you know..

Quote:
No, slavery is slavery......... is a slave better off being given a piece of horse **** every night to eat, or being free but having to find another means of sustinence?
Being free... sure they would be free, but they would have nothing to eat and would just starve to death just like they do in Africa (most slave labour is done in Asia, India, Pakistan and that stuff, and by by ethnic minorities all over the world). The meaning of slavery now isn't quite what you would think it is... The company doesn't "own" the employee, it just lets him work for a very low wage, in a bad environment etc..

It's been done before dude, you can't just free millions from this sort of slavery and give them nothing in return... That's the difficult part of fighting this problem. You'll see that even though they earn like $2/day they won't want to quit their job because they have no other option. You know, overpopulation... too much human pigs on this planet.



Quote:
That smacks REDICULOUSLY of imperialism so dont even try to use that rationale....... "The natives cant handle themselves, so we'll manage them now, but gradually we'll raise them to our level!" ask the native americans, africans and native australians how that worked out! I dont think you'll like there response very much.
Dude that is totally different. The new Americans took away the land of the native ones, the new Australians took away the land of the aboriginals etc... We're not trying to take over India you know... Look I don't support these big companies, on the other hand they should pay up a lot more. You don't get what I'm saying...
Why do you think people go to work in these factories, because they haven't got any alternative.. if they had one, they wouldn't work there. If Nike could spend a few billions less on advertising with Beckham and start paying their workers a bit more, that would be a step in the good direction. That is the problem, they have to take the initiative by treating them better!


Quote:
Your trying to wave your hand, say "pah!" and expect that to be justification, it isnt. The problem is quite simply, and one you havent addressed, that you are concerning yourself with animal suffering over human suffering, which seems barbaric.
This is your (and several others) problem man.. Your sense of superiority over other living things. It's not because you are able to thing abstractly that you are worth more... It's a ridiculous point of view because there isn't such a thing as being worth more than another animal. Like that animal is not worth more than you. It's you who seems barbaric to me...

Now was it Ghandi that said you could rate a civilization by looking at the way they treat their animals?... A civilization with the best technology or the biggest population isn't necessarily the best one you know..
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Old July 28, 2003, 06:39   #87
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Quote:
Now was it Ghandi that said you could rate a civilization by looking at the way they treat their animals?...
Quote:
You know, overpopulation... too much human pigs on this planet.


People are animals too. Even if they are human 'pigs' should we not care for them and treat them well?

Quote:
You'll see that even though they earn like $2/day they won't want to quit their job because they have no other option.
You also have to consider how much they can buy for 2$ American a day in their home country.
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Old July 28, 2003, 06:54   #88
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Animals eat each other why shouldn't we?
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Old July 28, 2003, 07:21   #89
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Quote:
Animals eat each other why shouldn't we?
I'm sorry muxec, but are you advocating that we should eat other human beings?

Only the carnivores eat other animals.
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Old July 28, 2003, 07:57   #90
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Quote:
1. "Yes, its a healthier diet"
Complete vegetarianism isn't healthier actually. According to my biology teacher from a few years back, there's a certain vitamin that the human body doesn't produce in sufficient quality out of itself, and which can only be found in meat. You need to eat meat at least once a month to stay completely healthy, so he said.
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