Are some people just destined to fail? - Page 2

SlowwHand · July 28, 2003, 18:57

I don't believe one entire side of a family fails, and the other side totally succeeds.
And no, no one is destined to fail.

Cruddy · July 28, 2003, 18:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Pekka
... I was just wondering how the hell could they all be such crooks! That's what I'm wondering about. In the early 1900s especially! Man they were like a gang.

Fine line between crime and survival - and given police abilities at the time (low detection rate) crime was easier to commit back then. Add in much less of a social welfare policy and maybe it becaomes a bit easier to understand.

Not condoning it, just saying there are forces that encourage people to become career criminals.

Pekka · July 28, 2003, 18:58

Also one funny detail. My aunt is (well the just divorced) to a man whose side was also full of criminals! Just small time, but they also got to know prison. Drunk as well. Everyone basically a loser. I've met these folks few times I'm telling you they're not good folks

. So it's kind of funny how the two sisters found decent men, but their families were ROTTEN! And that bastard from that family gave me the baddest memory of my life that I remember, showed my his gun when I was like 7 or 8, and told me bunch of things about it, and I thought it was like a toy. He was drunk of course, and when he shot the gun inside the house through a plastic bottle.. man that scared the crap out of me. He was drunk too. Actually if I see him, I'll kick the crap out of him. So that's another 'web' in the whole picture.

And then one of them married (from my mothers side) a musician, that is artist. WTF?

Ecthy · July 28, 2003, 18:59

then what about those that do? losers by their own decisions?

FrostyBoy · July 28, 2003, 19:00

I read this saying a while ago:

While some people dream of success,
others wake up and work hard to achieve it.

It is quite simple, you make your life the way you want to.

Both sides of my family are heavy drinkers (more on my Dads side). I don't drink at all, I always said no to alcohol when offered to me. It is a difficult thing to do such things when you are pressured by your own family and their values.

You are free to be who you want to be, you are not tied down by your genetic make-up - because you have the ability to evolve. Chuck away what you don't like and keep what you do. Therefore, Enviroment would be a greater effect on a persons individual life than mere genetics.

Zero · July 28, 2003, 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Japher

He actually asked three questions. Two of which are one in the same.

Why is one side of his familly successful and the other is not over generations?

and

Are some people just destined to fail?

I think you both (Zero and Sloww) answered only one of these questions.

wow you're right.

At least I was still right about sloww not having reading skills.

SlowwHand · July 28, 2003, 19:01

Of course, Andy. We have minds. Most, anyway.

Pekka · July 28, 2003, 19:04

sn00py, it makes lots of sense, that environment has played a huge role in it. If everyone you know and grew up with were criminals and heavy drinkers, well there's not a huge obstacle to do the same. I'm not saying they ALL were, but most of them were. Actually I didn't find any info on the other ones, who I think weren't criminals, or at least hoped so

And we're not talking so much the current days, but like 4 or 5 decades ago and from there on deeper to the history.

Maniac · July 28, 2003, 19:04

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
A Liberian can't run for U.S. President

You're being semantic. How about this example then: if you say environment plays no role, you say that a boy born in a poor criminal neighbourhood has the same chance to become US president as the son of a former US president?

Quote:

but that's another ignorant example.

Why? I gave two completely different environments. According to you they should have exactly the same chance to end up in any position. It only depends on their heart and hard work.

Japher · July 28, 2003, 19:07

My mom's side of the familly are a bunch of hard working entrepeneurs who fail all the time at whatever they try to do. They are smart, resourceful, and have enough to live their lives with all the time. Yet, they continue to try and scratch their way to the top (where ever that is). Yet, most of them get caught up in the top that they never bother to create a firm foundation from where to begin. My mom's dad was construction worker, turned contractor (on which he lost a lot of money in), and then became a building inspector... Respectable living he made.

My dad's side of the family are a little rougher. The drink a lot more, party a lot more, but are better family in that they spend time with you, and are always happy when you show up, and will never put you out. They are mostly in construction and teaching professions, nice blue collar jobs. Yet, one thing I notice is that they never try to better themselves, financially or careerwise. My dad's cousin has be in contruction for almost 30 years and never once thought of becoming a contractor... Why? They wwould rather spend time with their family than have money or work at their own buisness. When told they could spend even more time with their family once they made a lot of money, they usually say something along the lines of "yeah, but kids grow up so fast..."

I don't know what to take from this, but when my dad broke of off the blue collar family he was kind of shunned by them, and even to this day there is an air of resentment towards him for doing so... Yet, they say the love him all the same.

Zero · July 28, 2003, 19:08

All thre factors play a role. and as long as all 3 allow the possibility for you to be successful, you can be succesful thru advantage in genetics, enviornment or will... whatever.

Ecthy · July 28, 2003, 19:15

genetics, environment and will? I think will (the conscious per se, the mind so to speak) are formed by geens and by environment, so we're back at Mr Freud. how are those components of personality called in english?

Ecthy · July 28, 2003, 19:16

ego (mind, will), superego (environment) and "id" (genes)

instead of having this lousy debate, read soem hundred years old psychology!

SlowwHand · July 28, 2003, 19:17

There are a whole lot of losers in this thread, looking to put their failures on something besides themselves.

I have big news for you. Life is what you make it.
Actually, this thread is the same as Albert's.

Cruddy · July 28, 2003, 19:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
ego (mind, will), superego (environment) and "id" (genes)

instead of having this lousy debate, read soem hundred years old psychology!

Or some more up to date psychology books that maybe have a couple of chaptes on Freud.

Or maybe not. Freud has this horrible habit of lumping the whole of human experience in the same pigeon hole.

SlowwHand · July 28, 2003, 19:22

Right. It's all mother's fault.

Japher · July 28, 2003, 19:23

No, Sloww, it's the fault of the desire you have for your mother

SlowwHand · July 28, 2003, 19:25

Well, that's her fault, not mine.
See how that works?

Japher · July 28, 2003, 19:27

Well, I am just going to blame "The Man" and leave it at that...

Oerdin · July 28, 2003, 19:27

Genes set the stage but it is still up to you what you do on the stage. No one is a puppet on a string.

Ecthy · July 28, 2003, 19:28

his "ego" is sure working well

Maniac · July 28, 2003, 19:30

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
There are a whole lot of losers in this thread, looking to put their failures on something besides themselves.

Are you talking about me? I don't think I have been talking about any failures of mine. In fact personally I have enough opportunities and I could have more if I worked harder.

Quote:

I have big news for you. Life is what you make it.

Only partially... Just as so many dumbasses similar to you, you see things way too black and white concerning having opportunities. Having the will to get up plays a part, and is a necessary condition for success. But it isn't a sufficient condition for success. Environment does play a part. How else do you explain the scientifically proven strong correlation between the social-economic status of one's parents and that of the person itself? Do you really believe that's because they're all lazy bums which don't want to work and be succesful?

Quote:

Actually, this thread is the same as Albert's.

Yeah I know. I read his thread right before I posted here. After reading all that bullshit there, I reacted to it here on you.

Japher · July 28, 2003, 19:35

It's getting to be a lot like Speer's...

Quote:

you see things way too black and white

Wow, Sloww, you never get that do you?

Pekka · July 28, 2003, 19:40

Come on Sloww.. no one claimed to be a failure?

I claimed to be a winner big time! No excuses, no theories of genes destroying the future.. And I do believe, that the future is what you make of it.

You are judging the character of men too fast my dear old man

Ecthy · July 28, 2003, 19:42

funny how it's always the winners that say it's what you make of it, then the people on the receiving end ("losers", I prefer to call us/them just non-alphas) claiming the opposite and the blind mainstream peole that don't participate.

Oerdin · July 28, 2003, 20:07

Here's what I know about my recent (with in 4 generations) family. One my mother's side my great grandfather was from Chicago, graduated from Notre Dame University in 1910, and was an officer in the US Army during WW1. In 1920 he started a business making neon lights and actually got the contract from Budweiser to make neon bud signs. They actually ended up with quite a bit of money and later on during the depression when everyone else was dirt poor my grandfather had a nanny, went to privite schools, and lived in a large house. My great grandfather supposedly drank alot, but it didn't effect his job apparently, and was very emotionally cut off. In the Late 1940's he sold his business and retired only to die of a heart attack a few years later. I never met him but his wife, my great grand mother, died when I was 7 and I do remember her.

My mother's father graduated from USC and became an Army Air Corp pilot; He was sent to the Pacific in 1945 (the year he completed flight school) but there were very few Japanese planes left by then and he never saw air combat. After the war he tried to find a job as a pilot but there were many, many more pilots with more experience so he ended up getting a job in the insurence business intially as a salesman but later he worked his way up into management. Eventually he became the manager of All State Insurence's main office in downtown LA. His wife, my grandmother, died of cancer when I was 2 so I never knew her. I'm told she was a house wife and that my grandfather was overly fond of bourbon whiskey though he did quit drinking later in life (mostly because his second wife said she'd leave him if he didn't).

On my father's side his grandfather and father were both coal miners in Scotland. When my father was born my grandfather decided he didn't want his son to be a coal miner so they moved to America (it took them three attempts before they got their visas). Once in America they were dirt poor but my grandfather got lucky and landed a job with Convair as an aircraft painter. He worked there for 20 years and then retired at the age of 39, and then started his own painting business which he ran for 25 years. He sold the business and then my grand parents spent their retirement years traveling around the world on cruise ships (at least 5 cruises per year but sometimes more).

Neither one of my father's parents ever drank that was just part of their strict Protestent up bringing.

Both of my parents did drink though and that was the cause of much of their unhappiness. Still 3 years ago my mother quit drinking and my father agreed to cut back a great deal so there's always hope. My parents married to young (my mom was 19 and my dad 21) in my opinion but they did all right. My Dad graduated as an electrical engineer (he was the first in his family to go to a University while in my mother's family everyone went to a university) and my mom dropped out of school to be a house wife. After my sister and I got older she went to work as a human resources manager which she kept doing until 2 years ago when she had to quit for health reasons. Now she stays at home and my dad supports them both.

Pekka · July 28, 2003, 20:12

Thanks for all of you sharing your family stories.

I guess I just wanted to tell my story and hear yours.. and not make this another 'opportunity' thread.
Interesting stuff

Oerdin · July 28, 2003, 20:22

I forgot to mention that my paternal great grandfather was a quartermaster in the British army and was sent to South Africa to take part in the Boer war. We still have his wedding picture. They got married in the evening on a Sunday and on monday morning they got shipped out to go to South Africa. He didn't come back until the war was over several years later. Still they managed to have 12!!!! kids before they were through.

MrFun · July 28, 2003, 20:25

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
What it depends on is your heart and hard work.

I agree with you somewhat.
But what about those who are unable to find a way to work hard to move up in life?

:) Smiley · July 28, 2003, 20:27

The only failure destinies are those that are self-fulfilled