Radical Idea?

[Epistax]

I just got the idea from the China thread. I'm not talking about implementation, etc, simply concept:

Should traits change with ages- either by user choice, user action, or by history? What I mean by user action is if someone acts industrious, then at the next age advancement, perhaps the civ becomes industrious.

I don't have the game available right now for checking on specifics so I can't give any solid examples. It is a little hard to think about this as not all nations evolved simultaneously. The americans were originally industrious and expansionist, but that's in the 16th-18th century AD, not 40th century BC. (I'd call modern americans industrious commercial).

[Cort Haus]

Interesting idea, but expansionist is only applicable to the start-game. It would also be a bit complicated. You'd have to learn 8 traits for each civ, and it would be even harder for the poor AI to cope with.

[Panag]

hi ,

why not , they should change with age and form of gov , ....


BUT this should have an option on and off , ......

have a nice day

[Sheik]

sounds very SMAC. I love SMAC so a great idea.

[notyoueither]

It would be very interesting to modify behaviour in an attempt to gain traits. That would add a bunch to the game. Being able to lose them too? Maybe.

[alva]

I would love a more dynamical on other fronts too ( geography for one (ie mountains rising whlile other terrain flattens)).

[PLATO]

Originally posted by notyoueither
It would be very interesting to modify behaviour in an attempt to gain traits. That would add a bunch to the game. Being able to lose them too? Maybe.

Kinda like the GalCiv concept of having to make choices?

[Epistax]

I think the only major problem is Cort Haus said, the AI would be utterly confused. (By that, I mean they wouldn't exploit it at all, and would likely be set back)

As long as you could turn it on and off, I see no player complaints about it

Someone make Civ4 already. Wait a few years?... I guess...

[ISTANBUL]

Originally posted by Epistax
... simply concept:

Should traits change with ages- either by user choice, user action, or by history? What I mean by user action is if someone acts industrious, then at the next age advancement, perhaps the civ becomes industrious.

Do you mean an improvement in the level of a particular skill if the user acts accordingly (for example if you irrigate 30% of your territory, your workers irrigate even faster; if you fight wars for 40 turns your units are more likely to get promoted; if you can reveal a quarter of the map in a certain turns your scouts/naval units move even faster, etc) or just getting commercial trait if you're the one who gets the most gold per turn or losing it if you're the poorest civ inthe game?

Anyway that's cool. Don't several other games have similar features? (HoMM?)

[Epistax]

Originally posted by ISTANBUL


Do you mean an improvement in the level of a particular skill if the user acts accordingly (for example if you irrigate 30% of your territory, your workers irrigate even faster; if you fight wars for 40 turns your units are more likely to get promoted; if you can reveal a quarter of the map in a certain turns your scouts/naval units move even faster, etc) or just getting commercial trait if you're the one who gets the most gold per turn or losing it if you're the poorest civ inthe game?

Anyway that's cool. Don't several other games have similar features? (HoMM?)

I didn't mean that but it's a good idea. If you started industrious, and acted industrious, you become more industrious. I just used industrious three times in a sentence.

[ISTANBUL]

Originally posted by Epistax
... simply concept:

Should traits change with ages- either by user choice, user action, or by history? What I mean by user action is if someone acts industrious, then at the next age advancement, perhaps the civ becomes industrious.

Do you mean an improvement in the level of a particular skill if the user acts accordingly (for example if you irrigate 30% of your territory, your workers irrigate even faster; if you fight wars for 40 turns your units are more likely to get promoted; if you can reveal a quarter of the map in a certain turns your scouts/naval units move even faster, etc) or just getting commercial trait if you're the one who gets the most gold per turn or losing it if you're the poorest civ inthe game?

Anyway that's cool. Don't several other games have similar features? (HoMM?)

[The Mad Monk]

Americans were never expansionist -- at least not the way the game models it.

[Spiffor]

I'm all for it .
Traits should depend on your behaviour and surronding geogragphy (well, both are tied anyway), rather than to be predetermined. A highly militarized society should become militaristic; the game couldmaybe determine if a Civ is militaristic based on the length of military service (ratio units / population).
If a Civ is landlocked in your game, it should not be seafaring, even if it's English or Viking. By the same token, a Civ should not develop the expansionist trait if it's locked on a tiny island. I think these traits should be directly dependent of the emphasis players accord to exploration and to navy-building.

But to decide how a Civ would turn religious or scientific isn't easy. I wonder what the factors to become religious would be.

[Panag]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Americans were never expansionist -- at least not the way the game models it.

hi ,

, just take a look at all the wars the US has waged since its birth , more then 100 , ...... if that aint expansionist , ....

have a nice day

[Kuciwalker]

I'm all for it - for civ4. It is simply TOO LARGE of a change, code- and gameplay-wise, to be as an expansion.

Also, I think there are many more important things.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by panag


hi ,

, just take a look at all the wars the US has waged since its birth , more then 100 , ...... if that aint expansionist , ....

have a nice day

Not many of those wars were for land annexation. The one that comes to mind is the Mexican War.
Most of the contiental land was open and one big chunk was bought from France.
Some minor islands came out of the world wars, but I think an expansionist start the wars. Both WW were underway before we got in.

[Panag]

Originally posted by vmxa1


Not many of those wars were for land annexation. The one that comes to mind is the Mexican War.
Most of the contiental land was open and one big chunk was bought from France.
Some minor islands came out of the world wars, but I think an expansionist start the wars. Both WW were underway before we got in.

hi ,

being " expan " does not mean you grab land where ever , when ever you can , ......

have a nice day

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by skywalker
I'm all for it - for civ4. It is simply TOO LARGE of a change, code- and gameplay-wise, to be as an expansion.

Also, I think there are many more important things.

Yes, it's too 'root-and-branch' for Civ 3.

[Gufnork]

Americans were expansionist before they became americans. Exploring North America, popping goody huts, exploiting native americans. Yup, they were expansionist. Today, I'd say scientific and commercial.

[Panag]

hi ,

just look at the US protecting its intrest's all around the globe , .....

look at all the conflicts and support missions , from georgia till africa , iraq , etc , ......

maybe the US should get three traits , .....

have a nice day

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by panag


hi ,

, just take a look at all the wars the US has waged since its birth , more then 100 , ...... if that aint expansionist , ....

have a nice day

100??

Only if you include each and every native american tribe as a separate war (and about half of them we never fought) A more realistic figure is approx 15-25. (which is not even close to the # of wars the europeans fought in the same time span

[Panag]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber


100??

Only if you include each and every native american tribe as a separate war (and about half of them we never fought) A more realistic figure is approx 15-25. (which is not even close to the # of wars the europeans fought in the same time span

hi ,


this is just a small grasp of US actions , ...... from after WWII , ...

go ahead and count them , and they are not all listed , .....


Current Operations
Name Locale Dates US Forces
Former Yugoslavia and Kosovo
Joint Guardian Kosovo 11 Jun 1999 TDB 200?
Allied Force / Noble Anvil
Determined Force
Cobalt Flash Kosovo 23 Mar 1999
08 Oct 1998
10 Jun 1999
23 Mar 1999
Shining Hope
Sustain Hope / Allied Harbour
Provide Refuge
Open Arms Kosovo 05 April 1999 Fall 1999
Eagle Eye Kosovo 16 Oct 1998 24 Mar 1999
Determined Falcon Kosovo & Albania 15 Jun 1998 16 Jun 1998
Determined Effort
Joint Endeavor
Joint Guard
Joint Forge Bosnia-Herzegovina Jul 1995
Dec 1995
Dec 1996
20 Jun 98 Dec 1995
Dec 1996
20 Jun 98
Present


6,900
DELIBERATE FORCE Bosnian Serbs 29 Aug 1995 21 Sep 1995
Quick Lift Croatia 03 Jul 1995 11 Aug 1995
Nomad Vigil
Nomad Endeavor Albania
Taszar, Hungary 01 Jul 1995
March 1996 05 Nov 1996
Present
Able Sentry Serbia-Macedonia 5 Jul 1994 present
Deny Flight
Decisive Endeavor / Decisive Edge
Decisive Guard / Deliberate Guard
Deliberate Forge Bosnia-Herzegovina 12 Apr 1993
Jan 1996
Dec 1996
20 Jun 1998
20 Dec 1995
Dec 1996
20 Jun 1998
Present 2,000
??
??
Sky Monitor Bosnia-Herzegovina 16 Oct 1992 present
Maritime Monitor
Maritime Guard
Sharp Guard
Decisive Enhancement
Determined Guard Adriatic Sea 16 Jul 1992
22 Nov 1992
15 Jun 1993
Dec 1995
Dec 1996
22 Nov 1992
15 Jun 1993
Dec 1995
19 Jun 1996
Present ??
??
11,700
??
??
Provide Promise Bosnia 03 Jul 1992 Mar 1996 1,000
Southwest Asia
[none] (air strike)
[none] (cruise missile strike)
[none] (cruise missile strike)
DESERT STRIKE
DESERT THUNDER
DESERT FOX
Iraq 26 Jun 1993
13 Jan 1993
17 Jan 1993
03 Sep 1996
Feb 1998
16 Dec 1998
13 Jan 1993
17 Jan 1993
26 Jun 1993
04 Sep 1996
16 Dec 1998
20 Dec 1998
Shining Presence Israel Dec 1998 Dec 1998
Phoenix Scorpion IV
Phoenix Scorpion III
Phoenix Scorpion II
Phoenix Scorpion I Iraq Dec 1998
Nov 1998
Feb 1998
Nov 1997 Dec 1998
Nov 1998
Feb 1998
Nov 1997
Desert Focus Saudi Arabia Jul 1996 present
Vigilant Warrior
Vigilant Sentinel
Intrinsic Action
Desert Spring Kuwait Oct 1994
Aug 1995
1 Dec 1995
1 Oct 1999 Nov 1994
15 Feb 1997
1 Oct 1999
present
Iris Gold SW Asia ?? 1993 present
Pacific Haven / Quick Transit Iraq > Guam 15 Sep 1996 16 Dec 1996
Provide Comfort
Provide Comfort II
Northern Watch Kurdistan 5 Apr 1991
24 July 1991
31 Dec 1996 Dec 1994
31 Dec 1996
Present 42,500
??
1,100
Southern Watch Southwest Asia / Iraq 1991 present 14,000
Desert Falcon Saudi Arabia 1991 present
Other Operations
Korea Korea ongoing ongoing
New Horizons Central America ongoing ongoing
Sierra Leone NEO Sierra Leone May 2000
MONUC [UN PKO] DR Congo Feb 2000 ongoing
Resolute Response Africa Aug 1998 Present
Gatekeeper
Hold-the-Line
Safeguard California
Texas
Arizona 1995 present
Golden Pheasant Honduras Mar 1988 Present
Alliance US Southern border 1986 Present
Provide Hope I
Provide Hope II
Provide Hope III
Provide Hope IV
Provide Hope V Former Soviet Union 10 Feb 1992
15 Apr 1992
1993?
10 Jan 1994
06 Nov 1998 26 Feb 1992
29 Jul 1992
1993?
19 Dec 1994
10 May 1999
Counterdrug Operations
Coronet Nighthawk
Coronet Oak Central/South America 1991
Oct 1977 present
17 Feb 1999
Selva Verde Colombia 1995 present
Badge Kentucky 1990 Present?
Ghost Dancer Oregon 1990 Present?
Greensweep
Grizzly California Jul 1990
1990 Aug 1990
Present?
Wipeout Hawaii 1990 Present
Ghost Zone Bolivia Mar 1990 1993?
Constant Vigil Bolivia 199? ??
Support Justice
Steady State
Green Clover
Laser Strike South America 1991
1994
199?
Apr 1996 1994
Apr 1996
199?
Present
Agate Path
Enhanced Ops CONUS 1989
??? ???
Present

Completed Operations
Name Locale Dates US Forces
Silent Promise Mozambique / South Africa Feb 2000 ? Apr 2000
Fundamental Response Venezuela 20 Dec 1999 early 2000
Stabilize Timor 11 Sep 1999 Nov 1999
Avid Response Turkey 18 Aug 1999 Sep 1999
Strong Support [Fuerte Apoyo] Central America Oct 1998 10 Feb 1999 5,700
Infinite Reach Sudan / Afganistan 20 Aug 1998 20 Aug 1998
Shepherd Venture Guinea-Bissau 10 Jun 1998 17 Jun 1998 130
[none] Asmara, Eritrea NEO 05 Jun 1998 06 Jun 1998 130
Noble Response Kenya 21 Jan 1998 25 Mar 1998
Bevel Edge Cambodia Jul 1997 Jul 1997
Noble Obelisk Sierra Leone May 1997 Jun 1997
Guardian Retrieval Congo (formerly Zaire) Mar 1997 Jun 1997
Silver Wake Albania 14 Mar 1997 26 Mar 1997
Guardian Assistance
Assurance / Phoenix Tusk Zaire/Rwanda/Uganda 15 Nov 1996 27 Dec 1996
Quick Response Central African Republic May 1996 Aug 1996
Assured Response Liberia Apr 1996 Aug 1996
Zorro II Mexico Dec 1995 02 May 1996
Third Taiwan Straits Crisis Taiwan Strait 21 Jul 1995 23 Mar 1996
Safe Border Peru / Ecuador 1995 30 Jun 1999
United Shield Somalia 03 Jan 1995 25 Mar 1995 4,000
Uphold/Restore Democracy Haiti 19 Sep 1994 31 Mar 1995 21,000
Quiet Resolve / Support Hope Rwanda 22 Jul 1994 30 Sep 1994 2,592
Safe Haven / Safe Passage
Sea Signal / JTF-160 Cuba > Panama
Haiti > Guantanamo, Cuba 06 Sep 1994
18 May 1994 01 Mar 1995
Feb 1996
Distant Runner Rwanda NEO 9 Apr 1994 15 Apr 1994
Korean Nuclear Crisis North Korea 10 Feb 1993 Jun 1994
[none] Liberian NEO 22 Oct 1992 25 Oct 1992
Provide Relief
Restore Hope
Continue Hope Somalia 14 Aug 1992
4 Dec 1992
4 May 1993 8 Dec 1992
4 May 1993
Dec 1993 ??
26,000
??
Provide Transition Angola 3 Aug 1992 9 Oct 1992
Garden Plot Los Angeles, CA May 1992 4,500
Silver Anvil Sierra Leone NEO 2 May 1992 5 May 1992
GTMO
Safe Harbor Haiti > Guantanamo, Cuba 23 Nov 1991
1992
Quick Lift Zaire 24 Sep 1991 07 Oct 1991
Victor Squared Haiti NEO Sep 1991
Fiery Vigil Philippines NEO June 1991
Productive Effort / Sea Angel Bangladesh May 1991 Jun 1991
Eastern Exit Somalia 02 Jan 1991 11 Jan 1991
Desert Shield
Imminent Thunder
Proven Force
DESERT STORM
DESERT SWORD / DESERT SABRE
Desert Calm
Desert Farewell Southwest Asia 02 Aug 1990
Nov 1990
17 Jan 1991
17 Jan 1991

24 Feb 1991
01 Mar 1991
01 Jan 1992 17 Jan 1991
Nov 1990
28 Feb 1991
28 Feb 1991

28 Feb 1991
01 Jan 1992
1992?

550,000




Steel Box / Golden Python Johnston Island 26 Jul 1990 18 Nov 1990
Sharp Edge Liberia May 1990 8 Jan 1991
Cold War Era Locale Dates US Forces
Classic Resolve Philippines Nov 1989 Dec 1989
Hawkeye St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands 20 Sep 1989 17 Nov 1989
Nimrod Dancer
JUST CAUSE
Promote Liberty Panama May 1989
20 Dec 1989
31 Jan 1990 20 Dec 1989
31 Jan 1990
??
ERNEST WILL
PRAYING MANTIS Persian Gulf 24 Jul 1987
17 Apr 1988 02 Aug 1990
19 Apr 1988
Blast Furnace Bolivia Jul 1986 Nov 1986
EL DORADO CANYON Libya 12 Apr 1986 17 Apr 1986
Attain Document Libya 26 Jan 1986 29 Mar 1986
Achille Lauro Mediteranean 07 Oct 1985 11 Oct 1985
Intense Look Red Sea / Gulf of Suez Jul 1984 Jul 1984
URGENT FURY Grenada 23 Oct 1983 21 Nov 1983
Arid Farmer Chad / Sudan Aug 1983 Aug 1983
Early Call Egypt / Sudan 18 Mar 1983 Aug 1983
US Multinational Force [USMNF] Lebanon 25 Aug 1982 01 Dec 1987
Bright Star Egypt 06 Oct 1981 Nov 1981
Gulf of Sidra Libya / Mediterranean 18 Aug 1981 18 Aug 1981
RMT (Rocky Mountain Transfer) Colorado Aug 1981 Sep 1981
Central America El Salvador / Nicaragua 01 Jan 1981 01 Feb 1992
Creek Sentry Poland Dec 1980 1981
SETCON II Colorado May 1980 Jun 1980
EAGLE CLAW / Desert One Iran 25 Apr 1980
ROK Park Succession Crisis Korea 26 Oct 1979 28 Jun 1980
Elf One Saudi Arabia Mar 1979 15 Apr 1989
Yemen Iran/Yemen/Indian Ocean 06 Dec 1978 06 Jan 1979
Red Bean Zaire May 1978 June 1978
Ogaden Crisis Somalia / Ethiopia Feb 1978 23 Mar 1978
SETCON I Colorado 1978 1978
Paul Bunyan / Tree Incident Korea 18 Aug 1976 21 Aug 1976
Mayaguez Operation Cambodia 15 May 1975
New Life Vietnam NEO Apr 1975
Frequent Wind Evacuation of Saigon 29 Apr 1975 30 Apr 1975
Eagle Pull Cambodia 11 Apr 1975 13 Apr 1975
Nickel Grass Mideast 06 Oct 1973 17 Nov 1973
Garden Plot USA Domestic 30 Apr 1972 04 May 1972
Red Hat Johnston Island Jan 1971 Sep 1971
Ivory Coast / Kingpin Son Tay, Vietnam 20 Nov 1970 21 Nov 1970
Graphic Hand US Domestic 1970 1970
Red Fox [Pueblo incident] Korea theater 23 Jan 1968 05 Feb 1969
Six Day War Mideast 13 May 1967 10 Jun 1967
CHASE various 1967 1970
Powerpack Dominican Republic 28 Apr 1965 21 Sep 1966
Red Dragon Congo 23 Nov 1964 27 Nov 1964
[NONE] Chinese nuclear facilities 15 Oct 1963 Oct 1964
Cuban Missile Crisis Cuba, Worldwide 24 Oct 1962 01 Jun 1963
Vietnam War Vietnam 15 Mar 1962 28 Jan 1973
Operation Ranch Hand
Operation Rolling Thunder
Operation Arc Light
Operation Freedom Train
Operation Pocket Money
Operation Linebacker I
Operation Linebacker II
Operation Endsweep

Operation Ivory Coast / Kingpin

Operation Tailwind Vietnam
Vietnam
Southeast Asia
North Vietnam
North Vietnam
North Vietnam
North Vietnam
North Vietnam

North Vietnam

Laos Jan 62
24 Feb 65
18 Jun 65
06 Apr 72
09 May 72
10 May 72
18 Dec 72
27 Jan 72

21 Nov 70

1970 1971
Oct 68
Apr 70
10 May 72
23 Oct 72
23 Oct 72
29 Dec 72
27 Jul 73

21 Nov 70

1970
Berlin Berlin 14 Aug 1961 01 Jun 1963
Laos Laos 19 Apr 1961 07 Oct 1962
Congo Congo 14 Jul 1960 01 Sep 1962
Taiwan Straits Taiwan Straits
Quemoy and Matsu Islands 23 Aug 1958
23 Aug 1958 01 Jan 1959
01 Jun 1963
Blue Bat Lebanon 15 Jul 1958 20 Oct 1958
Suez Crisis Egypt 26 Jul 1956 15 Nov 1956
Taiwan Straits Taiwan Straits 11 Aug 1954 01 May 1955
Korean War Korea 27 Jun 1950 27 July 1953
Berlin Airlift Berlin 26 Jun 1948 30 Sep 1949
Cold War Worldwide 28 Feb 1946 25 Dec 1991



have a nice day

[Lord_Davinator]

an SMAC style of change would be nice.. but automatic changes based on how you behave and what you do would be nice... but does that mean you loose your old abilites to be replaced by the new ones or are they just added on?

[Cort Haus]

That's quite a list of operations you've quoted there panag We could add to that a list (no don't!) of foreign countries that the US has a military base.

I think U.S. America could be described by all five traits : Industrious, Expansionist, Commercial, Scientific and Militaristic. This might, er, imbalance the game a bit so the original point about switching (or better - developing) traits would ultimately be appropriate. Just not in civ 3.

Another idea would be levels of traits. Someone may have hinted at this earlier a la HOMM. So level 1 Industrious starts with just quick roads. Level 1 Religious starts with cheaper temples but only after, say, 5 temples do you get anarchy reductions etc. This borrows from the RPG skills development (your Civ is your 'character', right?). Diablo II did this well.

[Cort Haus]

... or Civs might start with "wannabe militaristic" - with maybe cheap barracks but no quick promotions until a couple of cities are taken and a war 'won'.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
That's quite a list of operations you've quoted there panag We could add to that a list (no don't!) of foreign countries that the US has a military base.

I think U.S. America could be described by all five traits : Industrious, Expansionist, Commercial, Scientific and Militaristic. This might, er, imbalance the game a bit so the original point about switching (or better - developing) traits would ultimately be appropriate. Just not in civ 3.

Another idea would be levels of traits. Someone may have hinted at this earlier a la HOMM. So level 1 Industrious starts with just quick roads. Level 1 Religious starts with cheaper temples but only after, say, 5 temples do you get anarchy reductions etc. This borrows from the RPG skills development (your Civ is your 'character', right?). Diablo II did this well.

hi ,

the list aint even complete , many advisor and mil aid programs are not on it , ......

136 countris had agreements with the US , 86 have bases , .....

have a nice day

[Mad Bomber]

Panag:

You list each and every operation as if it was a war!
Most listed involved no combat at all!


US Wars (as rational people would define them)

Second Persian Gulf War 2003-?
Afghanistan (WAr on Terror) 2001-?
Serbian Conflict 1998-1999
Somalia 1993
Persian Gulf War 1991
Panama 1989
Grenada 1983
Vietnam War 1965-1973
Second Korean War 1950-1953
WW2 1941-1945
Russian Intervention 1919-1921
WW1 1917-1918
Spanish American War 1898
Korean War 1871
Civil War 1861-1865
Mexican American War 1848
War of 1812 1812-1814
War aganst Barbary States 1807-1809
Faux War with France 1794
American Revolution 1776-1783

(wars with Native Americans not included)

[Panag]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Panag:

You list each and every operation as if it was a war!
Most listed involved no combat at all!


US Wars (as rational people would define them)

Second Persian Gulf War 2003-?
Afghanistan (WAr on Terror) 2001-?
Serbian Conflict 1998-1999
Somalia 1993
Persian Gulf War 1991
Panama 1989
Grenada 1983
Vietnam War 1965-1973
Second Korean War 1950-1953
WW2 1941-1945
Russian Intervention 1919-1921
WW1 1917-1918
Spanish American War 1898
Korean War 1871
Civil War 1861-1865
Mexican American War 1848
War of 1812 1812-1814
War aganst Barbary States 1807-1809
Faux War with France 1794
American Revolution 1776-1783

(wars with Native Americans not included)

hi ,

panag did not list them as war , the senate did , ........

have a nice day

[Mad Bomber]

Panag:


Look at the title of your information Panag:

CURRENT OPERATIONS

NOT

CURRENT WARS

You have listed all military operations for the US, not the wars in which it has participated. An operation is essentially any major mission in which the military partakes in. these can include:combat missions, peacekeeping missions, Humanitarian aid missions, and training exercises.

It is another example in which you just list information and do not understand the relevance (or lack therof) in relation to the topic.

PS. When did we Fight "Safeguard California" ?

[vmxa1]

Fact is Congress did not declare war for the civil war. They could not as that would require recoqnizing the South as a country.
Congress has not declared a war since WWII. Operations are not wars neither are missions.