July 29, 2003, 16:24
|
#1
|
Deity
Local Time: 23:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
|
Republicans say they will destroy Amtrak.
In the 1970's the Congress nationalized all of the priviately owned passager rail way companies in the US, many of them where in bankruptcy, and formed Amtrak as the American national railway company. From the beginning Amtrak was required to maintain and continue to run all existing passager rail lines even if those lines generated a lose. During the 1970's and 1980's Congress provided a subsidy to Amtrak in recognition that Congress's mandate that all rail lines continue to be oppurated, including the money losing lines, and so Amtrak continued to exist. However, the amount of money Congress supplied was never enough to invest in new trains, cars, stations, and was barely enough to maintain the rail tracks themselves in working condition.
Starting in the 1990's the newly Republican controlled Congress drastically cut funding to Amtrak and demanded Amtrak turn a profit. The Republicans did not repeal the congressional mandate that Amtrak continue to maintain and oppurate unprofitable rail lines since this would have offended representatives from rural states. Now the Republican controlled Congress is declaring that Amtrak is a complete failure and in light of the largest budget deciet in history, a defiet almost entirely created by massive Republican tax cuts and massive Republican spending increases, Amtrak will be closed and it's assets closed.
In my mind there is something wrong and immoral to intentionally set an institution up for failure and then say "See! State run companies can't compete!". If Amtrak were allowed to cut the unprofitable routes then Amtrak could easily become a profitable company, but, Republican law makers have recieved millions of dollars from the Airline companies who all feel they will benifit from Amtrak's demise.
Does anyone else feel this is the wrong way for the country to go? In light of how bad the air line system has become post 9/11 shouldn't we be working towards creating more ways to travel and not less? Isn't it in the national interest to have a functional railway system?
Here's the link. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3107667.stm
EDIT: Link updated.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
Last edited by Oerdin; July 29, 2003 at 16:34.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:25
|
#2
|
Emperor
Local Time: 09:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
|
  I think this is not the right link....
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:27
|
#3
|
Emperor
Local Time: 09:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
|
But we communists have known this for a very long time. When capital influences politics, nothing good comes out. Even Adam Smith knew this.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:28
|
#4
|
King
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,394
|
Republicans are pigs. Get over it.
On a more serious note, yes, Amtrak has promise if they'd do more than just **** around with it and use it as a pawn in some political game.
__________________
meet the new boss, same as the old boss
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:28
|
#5
|
Deity
Local Time: 01:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 27,637
|
It doesn't matter, Azazel.
Why shouldn't a profit be expected?
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:29
|
#6
|
King
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,394
|
SlowwHand, if the government mandated you to build a large housing project to house 500 people and gave you seventeen cents and a bottlecap to do it, would you be able to?
It's the same principle here.
__________________
meet the new boss, same as the old boss
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:30
|
#7
|
Deity
Local Time: 22:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,628
|
The market has already shown that rail can't compete against air travel. That's why the private companies went bankrupt. I don't see how Amtrak could possibly make profit.
__________________
Obedience unlocks understanding. - Rick Warren
1 John 2:3 - ... we know Christ if we obey his commandments. (GWT)
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am ... the truth." (NKJV)
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:30
|
#8
|
King
Local Time: 02:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: of Meridian Hill, Washington D.C.
Posts: 1,383
|
I doubt airlines will pick up that much money from a potential demise of Amtrack. The people who take the train will continue to do so.
Besides, the only routes that make money are on the DC-NYC-Boston Corridor. Amtrak will continue to operate that line for the foreseeable future.
I would favor regional rail setups, but people in America continue to have hardons for cars, regardless of gridlock. The trains that run into NYC and DC are a godsend.
__________________
R.I.P George Alexandru 9/8/07
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:30
|
#9
|
Deity
Local Time: 23:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
|
So how would I fix Amtrak? I would first nationalize all rail way lines in the country and create a new federal agency which would be something of an FAA but for trains. The federal government would then be responsible for maintaining all the nations rail way lines just like it is responsible for maintaining interstate highways, airports, sea ports, many canals, and the like. Next individual priviately owned companies would be authorized to oppurate trains on the rail way lines just like individual airlines are authorized to fly into certain air ports.
Such an approach would inject a great deal of competetion into the industry thus keeping down prices, but, it would remove the single biggest problem priviate rail companies have had in the past. That being how to continually pay for maintaining tens of thousands of miles of track.
What do you think? Is my idea workable?
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:31
|
#10
|
King
Local Time: 00:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,394
|
Sounds great. I mean, the car companies don't have to pay to upkeep the roads, do they?
__________________
meet the new boss, same as the old boss
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:32
|
#11
|
Deity
Local Time: 02:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
|
Amtrack SHOULD be gotten rid of.
Profitable railroads are indeed possible. But not under government control/mandate.
The absurd restrictions you mention (maintain all sorts of unprofitable routes) are government directives that a private company wouldn't have to deal with.
I'm not defending the idea of cutting funding + demanding improvement, and then crucifying Amtrak for failure. I am, however, saying that Amtrak needs to go. Pronto.
-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:33
|
#12
|
Deity
Local Time: 22:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,628
|
They use the same track as freight. How much maintainance do they pay?
__________________
Obedience unlocks understanding. - Rick Warren
1 John 2:3 - ... we know Christ if we obey his commandments. (GWT)
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am ... the truth." (NKJV)
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:34
|
#13
|
Deity
Local Time: 02:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
|
However, if you insist on government interference, then the government-funded track upkeep makes sense so that RR's can compete on a level playing field with other forms of transportation... though there are tolls roads out there...
-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:35
|
#14
|
Deity
Local Time: 22:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,628
|
If one RR can't make profit, how are many RRs going to make profit. No way.
__________________
Obedience unlocks understanding. - Rick Warren
1 John 2:3 - ... we know Christ if we obey his commandments. (GWT)
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am ... the truth." (NKJV)
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:37
|
#15
|
King
Local Time: 08:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Yuggoth
Posts: 1,987
|
There´s more to a functiuoning Railway System.
I think, Trains are much more cleaner from an Environmentalist Standpoint than Planes.
So it would be a reasonable thing to have a functioning Railway System.
It would even be reasonable trying to atract more customers to use trains for short Distances, so you can cut down the Numbers of Flights.
__________________
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe which strives to produce bigger idiots. - software engineers' saying
So far, the Universe is winning.
- applications programmers' saying
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:38
|
#16
|
Deity
Local Time: 23:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by SlowwHand
It doesn't matter, Azazel.
Why shouldn't a profit be expected?
|
Slow: Did you read the part about how Congress has made it illegal for Amtrak to cut service to unprofitable lines? If Congress doesn't want to provide the money then shouldn't they at least make it legal for Amtrak to decide which lines to run and which not to run based upon which lines make money and which lose money? Isn't it extremely disingenious to claim "They're unprofitable so we're closing them" when it continues to be the Congress which makes them unprofitable?
At the very least Congress should repeal the "Amtrak may never stop oppurating any rail line" statute and then see if they are profitable or not.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:39
|
#17
|
Deity
Local Time: 02:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
|
Quote:
|
If one RR can't make profit, how are many RRs going to make profit. No way
|
RR's can do it, if they aren't forced to run routes that lose money.
The track upkeep thing is an interesting topic, and one could certainly argue that it would be good public policy to have the government (and therefore the taxpayers) cover it, leveling the playing field.
-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:39
|
#18
|
Deity
Local Time: 01:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 27,637
|
Always people looking for a good excuse for failing.
They said, "Make a profit."
They DIDN'T give unrealistic guidelines, Mitchell.
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:43
|
#19
|
Deity
Local Time: 23:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by SlowwHand
Always people looking for a good excuse for failing.
They said, "Make a profit."
They DIDN'T give unrealistic guidelines, Mitchell.
|
Slow: If Congress told the airlines they couldn't cut unprofitable routes then how long do you think the airlines would last losing money on every plane they flew? This is exactly what the Congress has done to Amtrak; they require Amtrak to maintain and oppurate every single line in the country including the interstate route into Ceyyan (spelling), WI that only gets about 100 people per month.
Allow Amtrak the freedom to eliminate the lose making routes and you will find Amtrak will make money.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:45
|
#20
|
King
Local Time: 08:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Yuggoth
Posts: 1,987
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by SlowwHand
Always people looking for a good excuse for failing.
They said, "Make a profit."
They DIDN'T give unrealistic guidelines, Mitchell.
|
If the things Oerdin posted are right,
i.e. they get only small funds which aren´t even enough to buy new (faster) trains or to properly upkeep their Tracks and not even are allowed to close their unprofitable routes,
how can you then expect them to make Profit?
__________________
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe which strives to produce bigger idiots. - software engineers' saying
So far, the Universe is winning.
- applications programmers' saying
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:45
|
#21
|
Deity
Local Time: 23:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
|
The bill hasn't passed yet and we might be able to change it if we all write our congressmen and tell them to stop it.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:47
|
#22
|
Emperor
Local Time: 09:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
|
Oerdin is a closet commie! nya nya nya nya.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:48
|
#23
|
Deity
Local Time: 23:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Kidicious
The market has already shown that rail can't compete against air travel. That's why the private companies went bankrupt. I don't see how Amtrak could possibly make profit.
|
The reason the priviate companies went bankrupt was because of the huge expense of maintaining the rail lines when cars and planes both had their infastructure paid for by the state (in the form of state owned roads and airports). If we have state owned rail lines and priviately owned companies oppurating on those rail lines then we will have a level playing field were the economics are very favorable.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:49
|
#24
|
Emperor
Local Time: 02:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 4,264
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Oerdin
So how would I fix Amtrak? I would first nationalize all rail way lines in the country and create a new federal agency which would be something of an FAA but for trains. The federal government would then be responsible for maintaining all the nations rail way lines just like it is responsible for maintaining interstate highways, airports, sea ports, many canals, and the like. Next individual priviately owned companies would be authorized to oppurate trains on the rail way lines just like individual airlines are authorized to fly into certain air ports.
Such an approach would inject a great deal of competetion into the industry thus keeping down prices, but, it would remove the single biggest problem priviate rail companies have had in the past. That being how to continually pay for maintaining tens of thousands of miles of track.
What do you think? Is my idea workable?
|
So you want to nationalize the track, but keep the railroad cars private?
I could go for that.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:49
|
#25
|
Deity
Local Time: 23:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Azazel
Oerdin is a closet commie! nya nya nya nya.
|
I've told everyone I'm a Centrist Democrat but no one believed me.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:51
|
#26
|
Deity
Local Time: 23:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Timexwatch
Besides, the only routes that make money are on the DC-NYC-Boston Corridor. Amtrak will continue to operate that line for the foreseeable future.
|
70% of all Amtrak lines are profitable. I know here in California the Coaster (Amtrak's train which goes from San Diego to Santa Barbara and back 4 times a day) has broken all ridership records and is very profitable.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:53
|
#27
|
King
Local Time: 06:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: soon to be a major religion
Posts: 2,845
|
 problem with american is that they rather take the car for a +3 hours drive than sit in a train for +4 hours.
in the netherlands a lot of people take the train everday....and it is (partly) goverment owned.....oh no wait...it is private now....anyways....the trains are in bad shape and always to late....so turning from Government owned to Private companies is not always succesfull
__________________
Bunnies!
Welcome to the DBTSverse!
God, Allah, boedha, siva, the stars, tealeaves and the palm of you hand. If you are so desperately looking for something to believe in GO FIND A MIRROR
'Space05us is just a stupid nice guy' - Space05us
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 16:54
|
#28
|
Deity
Local Time: 23:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by JohnT
So you want to nationalize the track, but keep the railroad cars private?
I could go for that.
|
Further once priviate rail companies are up and running we could charge them a user fee just like we charge a per plane fee which the airlines have to pay. This will help to off set the cost of maintaining train stations and rail way lines.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 17:02
|
#29
|
Local Time: 02:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
|
Interesting BBC article, especially this part:
Quote:
|
The plan would split Amtrak into operating and maintenance companies and open both to competition from outside contractors.
|
I like this idea. Have Amtrak face the private sector. After all, they have a monopoly on running service between cities.
The maintainance company would be seperate and be the one that gets state funding for upkeep on the railroad network... if they do a good job.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
|
|
|
|
July 29, 2003, 17:19
|
#30
|
King
Local Time: 07:31
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Just one more thing
Posts: 1,733
|
Privatising the train operators whilst keeping the track state-owned sounds like a good idea, but it sounds a lot like the utter fiasco that is Britain's experience.
The railways are now costing the taxpayer more money than when they were state-owned. Safety has declined, due to engineers being replaced by accountants obsessed with profit.
Your current system sounds fine, if you just had a more interested government.
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is On
|
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:31.
|
|