Euros

[Pekka]

Ok, I had to start a new thread because I was threadjacking
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=93382 <- this one.

So, anyone care to continue the discussion of a myth called Europe?

[C0ckney]

i'm english first, last and always, not european

[JohnT]

I don't feel European either.

[Pekka]

C0ckney, music to my ears.

If someone is too lazy to read the other thread, I'll give a quick caption what it was about.

I claimed, that Europe is nothing but bunch of imaginery borders, and there is no unity in Europe. I claimed also, that TRUE EUROS are many times ignorant and uneducated claiming that they are Europeans, but still they don't know what is Europe. They don't even know where my country is for example, and last time I checked, it was part of Europe.

I claimed that EU is only a loose alliance, nothing more.
It is not equal, it is not unified, therefore it will fail and never succeed.

I claimed, that Europe is all about central Europe hegemony, few countries praising themselves and that's all there is to it, and so I must conclude that Europe sucks.

[C0ckney]

well i've always though of the EU in civilization terms, france and germany couldn't achieve a military victory against us, so they're going for the diplomatic one

[Sandman]

Your claims have no meaningful basis. Confirmation bias is what it seems like to me.

[reds4ever]

I even correct people who call me 'British'!
'European' is an even bigger stretch!

[Pekka]

Sandman, well.. explain how Europe is then unified. Trash my arguments even when they are poor. And while you're at it, can you tell what are the European values?

On which of my claims do you disagree?

[mrmitchell]

Odd. I don't feel European.

If this is a large problem for the EU, then there are two solutions.

Number one, realise that the European Union was not some kind of a consolidator that would create a United States of Europe--just a complex system of treaties and alliances.

Or, you can feel that Europeans are just sectionalist brats. I prefer the first reason myself.

[Pekka]

Europe is like Saddam Hussein. Claiming to have unity, claiming to be great and defeat any competitors. But when it's show time, the reality surfaces and everyone realizes that it was just talk. Straight from Sun Tzu. When you are weak, appear strong.

[Sandman]

I claimed, that Europe is nothing but bunch of imaginery borders, and there is no unity in Europe.

I don't really understand what you are on about with this sentence, so I'll ignore it.

I claimed also, that TRUE EUROS are many times ignorant and uneducated claiming that they are Europeans, but still they don't know what is Europe.

Your evidence for this consists of your own experience. And you strike me as highly biased. I bet you just ignore anything which doesn't fit in with your beliefs. For example, you exclude everyone in this forum who knows where Finland is and is European, in order to shore up your own point.

I claimed that EU is only a loose alliance, nothing more.

It is not a loose alliance, except, if by 'loose alliance' you mean an economic bloc with a system of common laws and a common currency.

It is not equal, it is not unified, therefore it will fail and never succeed.

Even if the premise is true, which it is not, your conclusion is not logical.

I claimed, that Europe is all about central Europe hegemony, few countries praising themselves and that's all there is to it, and so I must conclude that Europe sucks.

I suppose this is reference to Chirac's comments. In case you hadn't noticed, there is a hell of a lot more to the EU than him.

[Pekka]

Sandman, Yes I base some of my knowledge on personal experience. But if you lived here, you'd know no one knows about us, even in Europe. It's a regular joke even in here. This is common feeling.

No, I mean EU is loose alliance because it is not strong. If it is not unified, if it is not equal, it can not be anything else than a loose alliance at the very best.

How my conlcusion is not logical? How come it's not true?
It can't be equal if the big ones don't know about the small ones, and when the big ones drive their own things (granted, so are others doing too), and when the big ones concentrate on being the biggest dog on the hill, fighting each other who's the boss? We can throw all kinds of papers and laws about how we can guarantee that we are equal, but we can not ever be equal, if we are not know and recognized. We can not be equal as long as the rest of the world sees Europe as three to five countries. That is something no one can do nothing about, so I'm not saying it is someones fault. I am just saying that we are not equal.

And if it is not equal, then how can it be unified? And unified it is certainly not. We look for ourselves here, no one cares about how country x is doing on another side if the Europe. Some individuals might care, but not in nation level they don't. It's like saying UN is unified.
We disagree with everything all the time in ways, that things can not be decided. It is not a sign of unity?

And because there is no unity and equality, how can it truly succeed? How is it possible? Some countries might succeed, but how can the whole thing succeed? It might seem like it in UK or France for example, but how does it show here? Not in a single way. Because we are not equal nor unified.

Can you tell me our common goals? Sure, there can be some crap some old guy said that these are the goals because I am intelligent man, but we don't really have common goals. So where are we trying to go? To superpower? How is that possible? We need to be even more unified to do that, or else it's just few countries trying to success for their own. That doesn't mean it's the whole Europe getting victories?!

Can you name one key to victory, that Europe actually has? I mean Europe, not a single country. Or EU if you want something smaller to begin with? What are our keys to success?

[Pekka]

And many people here know, because we are almost as many as Americans here. So it's kind of hard to pass us here you know.

[Velociryx]

As it stands now, the EU is doing slightly more than "playing at" being a unified economy. Sadly, it takes more than a lack of tarrifs and a "common currency" to create economic unity. You get that by allowing economies of scale to be created, across nationalistic borders and stripping "national" government agencies of redundant departments, and a whole host of other things that simply aren't happening.

When last I heard, the so-called "common currency" was simply being overlaid across the top of each country's "regular" currency. So yes, there is a common means of intrastate economic transfers, but each nation is still carrying the expense of minting its own coin for local use, each little state (and the bigger ones too) is so wrapped up in preserving its cultural heritage and claiming that every blessed little thing (yep, right down to continuing with their own currency) contributes to that culture.

Under those conditions, Pekka is exactly right. It won't work. It will remain little more than a largely ineffectual, shallow veneer, pretending to be a "unified body."

-=Vel=-

[Pekka]

Even if Europe wrote a paper and everyone signed it saying 'we shall be all equal' it doesn't mean we really are. It's just words. To be honest, I don't even see how that is possible. How can you make us all equal?
Really equal, equal in action. I don't see that is possible.

Europe is splitted at least in two, maybe even more.
We should be pulling one rope to succeed. But in action and in real life, everyone is speaking other things and against each other.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Pekka
No, I mean EU is loose alliance because it is not strong. If it is not unified, if it is not equal, it can not be anything else than a loose alliance at the very best.

You seem to think that the EU should be like a big nation state, but that isn´t at all the goal, at least not in the near future. it is a union of nation states, no new superstate. That those nations (which were at war with eachother most of the time in earlier centuries) who form the EU still have other interests is hardly surprising, and it will still be that way for quite a long time. Still they have enough common ground to form the EU, and share a lot of things. Sandman mentioned eg. law and currency, but these achievements are rooted in common values and interests. The EU is btw the first project of its kind and noone can expect that this goes all without problems.

Still, with all these problems it is quite attractive for new members, otherwise nobody would join the EU.

[Velociryx]

You mean, with phrases like "the Eastern European countries....EU entrant hopefuls, missed a very good opportunity to shut up?"



-=Vel=-

[BeBro]

One stupid comment doesn´t change the fact that those countries want to be (and will be, if they aren´t already) EU members.

[Pekka]

BeBro, Well what are the goals of Europe and EU, if not a superpower? To be mediocre? To have few common laws and same looking money? To me that still sounds like an alliance or union, but they don't make us unified or equal now does it? And that's why I see it won't succeed. That is why I see it only consisting of borders we have made up, and a word European that means you are from the area of Europe. To see anything else I do not understand. Some see potential, but potential is not a synonyme for unity, equality and success.

[Velociryx]

Of course they want to be....members get the no-tarrif treatment. If your economy had been REAMED by seventy-odd years of Soviet mismanagement, you'd want the no-tarrif treatment too! (especially given the alternative of being largely shut out of Euro markets).

But at this stage of its development, it would be false to refer to the EU as a "unified European economy." It's just not there yet.

-=Vel=-

[Drake Tungsten]

I feel bad for the Eastern European countries, so desperate for economic success that they'll take the **** Old Europe dishes out. We need to help those guys. Anyone else think America should accept applications for a few new states?

[Velociryx]

Further, Pekka's point about inequality rings very true. The major players of the game are France and Germany, and the leaders of those two nations strut around like the **** of the block. That will get tiresome after a time to the "lesser members"--who collectively, out number the "greater members" by an impressive margin. Further, the formerly mismanaged economies will be growing by leaps and bounds once fully integrated into the system as it stands, and as their economic clout increases, so too will their desire for a stronger voice, which will, no doubt, be seen as a direct threat.

And Britain is another matter entirely....powerful in her own right, she will not be the silent lapdog of the strutting players on the stage now.

-=Vel=-

[Pekka]

Drake, don't worry.. when they are part of the new superpower EU, they will become part of something special and they can join the central Europe hegemony, and that'll keep their hungry stomachs quiet for a moment.

[GePap]

There has been a concept of the "European man" for centuries now and a beliefe that all such men should end up under one leadership brought about peacefully for decades. nietzsche spoke about himself as a European, not German (he did not have too many nice things to say about germans). the thing is Pekka, including Finns into that category is brand new..after all, for a long time you were heathens, and then under the rule of eastern Barbarians... You could not possibly have become full Europeans by now.

[Drake Tungsten]

they can join the central Europe hegemony

I doubt it. France and Germany run the EU, as Velo said, and I doubt they'll start treating the other members as equals anytime soon.

[Pekka]

BUt sure, new members will benefit and their economies will benefit greatly I believe. I believe they will do better when they get to be part of it.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I feel bad for the Eastern European countries, so desperate for economic success that they'll take the **** Old Europe dishes out. We need to help those guys. Anyone else think America should accept applications for a few new states?

No. Specially Eastern Europeans.

[Pekka]

Drake, that's exactly what I meant . But they can join hailing the kings. It's good to see someone from the same team doing great .

[Drake Tungsten]

No. Specially Eastern Europeans.

Racist.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Drake: The preferred PC term for 'racist' is now 'Boddingtons'. Please adjust your vocabulary to take consonance with these recent changes.

Thank you .