Euros

[Pekka]

GePap, EXACTLY! It is just a concept, not a real thing. It is just utopia, and it won't work! So, Europe is just appearing to be all that, but in reality it is not!

[Velociryx]

Imran!

-=Vel=-

[GePap]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Quote:

No. Specially Eastern Europeans.

Racist.

Yes, for that very reaosn we can;t let them in. No good racist Eastern europeans!

[Drake Tungsten]

Drake: The preferred PC term for 'racist' is now 'Boddingtons'. Please adjust your vocabulary to take consonance with these recent changes.

Correction noted. My apologies.

[Velociryx]

What we *really* need is for Roland to come in and tell us how the EU is really a "country" but the US isn't....

-=Vel=-

[GePap]

Originally posted by Pekka
GePap, EXACTLY! It is just a concept, not a real thing. It is just utopia, and it won't work! So, Europe is just appearing to be all that, but in reality it is not!

No, Europe is a concept. Being a concept it is a "real" thing. At one point Finland was a concept, as was the Czech Republic, and so many other states. That they were once only concepts did not stop them, once enough people believed in them, from becoming more than concepts.

[Nubclear]

Ze euuurrooo peeeaaannnn yooonniiuuunn eeeezzz nnnoooozzziiinnngggg mooorrreee zzzaaannn eeeecccoooonnnoooommmiiiikkkllllyyyy deeeveeesteeteed kooonnnttrreeeeezzzz ccccrrrreeeettttiiiinnnggg a zzzzhhhhuuuunnnniiiiooooonnnnn. zzzzeeeeyyy arrrrr oooooolld!
zzzzzeeeeeyyyyy sssshhhhuuulllddd jjjuuuuiiiiinnnn zzzzeeee eeeecunooomoooc zzzzuuuuppppeeerrr aaalllliiiiaaannnzzzz oooofffff llliiiittttuuuuuania, eeeestoneeeeaa, llllaaaattttiiiivvviiiiaaaa, aaaannnnndddd bbbbyyyyllllleeeerrroooosssssssiiiiyyyyaaaa.

[Imran Siddiqui]

At one point Finland was a concept

.. and it should have stopped there

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Further, Pekka's point about inequality rings very true. The major players of the game are France and Germany, and the leaders of those two nations strut around like the **** of the block. That will get tiresome after a time to the "lesser members"--who collectively, out number the "greater members" by an impressive margin. Further, the formerly mismanaged economies will be growing by leaps and bounds once fully integrated into the system as it stands, and as their economic clout increases, so too will their desire for a stronger voice, which will, no doubt, be seen as a direct threat.

Please explain how the "major players" in the EU are opressing the poor small countries (and those poor underdogs still don´t even dare to go out of the EU). And I don´t speak of the new members here - how does Germany eg. opress Luxembourg? Or Portugal?

The EU is an institutional system just to avoid that simple power politics takes over. Sure it still plays a role, but not at all in the way you describe it.

[Drake Tungsten]

.. and it should have stopped there

You can't stop pure evil; you can only hope to contain it.

[Sandman]

I'd prefer to hear the opinions of other Finns, and see if they agree that they're so hard done by Europe.

With your talk of unity, equality, power, victory, you make it sound like the EU is meant to be some sort of *monstrous* Orwellian Borg-like collective.

Disagreement is good. It's healthy. It's why we have free speech.

First of all, Finland has a small popualtion. So do many other EU countries. But the smaller countries make up almost half of the EU population. With the expansion, they'll make up most of the EU.

I think you are overreacting to an absolutely ludicrous degree when you say that because a handful of people you've met don't know exactly where Finland is, that it is somehow 'unequal'. Do you know where every town is in Finland? Are the towns you don't know about somehow less than equal? Because the principle is exactly the same.

When last I heard, the so-called "common currency" was simply being overlaid across the top of each country's "regular" currency. So yes, there is a common means of intrastate economic transfers, but each nation is still carrying the expense of minting its own coin for local use, each little state (and the bigger ones too) is so wrapped up in preserving its cultural heritage and claiming that every blessed little thing (yep, right down to continuing with their own currency) contributes to that culture.

This paragraph is startlingly wrong. The national currencies of the eurozone countries were phased out.

[Pekka]

GePap, but that's what TRUE EUROS do. All they do is believe. But sometimes that's just not enough.
You know, like communism. Good idea in theory maybe, but didn't work in reality. Good in paper, bad in real life.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Pekka
GePap, but that's what TRUE EUROS do. All they do is believe. But sometimes that's just not enough.
You know, like communism. Good idea in theory maybe, but didn't work in reality. Good in paper, bad in real life.

hhhhheeeeeeelllllllsssssseeeeeeeennnnnnnkkkkkkkkee eeeeee, rrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuusssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeyaaaaaaa!

[GePap]

INterestingly enough, one of the issue of the EU is that the little states have so much power. 6 countries make up 70% of the EU's people, Germany, France, UK, Italy, Poland, Spain. Yet they are on equal footing to much smaller states that can as a block stop this or that. No, the current EU mechanism does not allow the big state to run over the small ones, and the Eastern Europeans stand top gain by allying themselves with the French in fighting for big agricultural subsidies vs the Germans and UK.

[Velociryx]

The established players and prominent member states have set strict financial guidelines, including interest rate caps, deficit spending caps, and the like that apply to all member states. These caps (which even some of the established member states--France and Germany--have difficulty meeting are quite harsh to newly rebuilding economies, as they limit the power of these fledgling, recovering states to inject their economies (ie - the US spent her way out of the great depression via deficit government spending....such a remedy would be in violation of EU monetary policy, and thus, not an option for an EU hopeful). Further, by virtue of the strengths of their economies, relative to the smaller economies that make up the EU, we see the potential for bulldogging....the countries with the bigger economies will get their way....and of course, there's a built in incentive to help your own, so, if it's at the expense of the little guy....well, maybe he just missed another good opportunity to shut up....

-=Vel=-

[Drake Tungsten]

The established players and prominent member states have set strict financial guidelines, including interest rate caps, deficit spending caps, and the like that apply to all member states.

I remember that Ireland had an issue with this. The EU took them to task for breaking the economic guidelines, even though Ireland had one of the fastest growing economies in Europe.

[Pekka]

Sandman, Did I blame countries for bashing us? No I did not. I didn't claim with all the things I claimed that for example France is oppressing us! To be not equal does not mean someone needs to oppress you.

And by all the talk about equality and unity, I meant to say we don't have it. Some people so hard claim we do, like TRUE EUROS. And I base my belief on it, that they are one of the reasons why we will never succeed to anything great. Disagreement is healthy. But when it gets to a level of disagreing with every single little thing in nation level, it is not working for the good of the whole alliance or union. Some decisions should be able to be made.

Yes we are small. Yes so are many others. And because we are not unified either, we can not pull the rope together to mass against the big ones. Just like the big stock owner with 51% of stocks. He says what will be done. Or maybe he has 49%, but the rest of the small ones has to be massing with all their folks and not one of them can disagree with it, no one can fall under the big guy. In theory it can happen, but in reality it won't.

Handful of people? This is the common feeling in the whole country with few expections. To say otherwise is decepting yourself. I have friends here in Finland too, you know, who I said have the same feeling, as most of the nation does. I think that multiplies the experience and strengthens it.

And that was just one of my points what makes us unequal. It wasn't all the points, just one. If you don't know us, how can we be equal.

And actually I know the most towns in Finland and can point them on the map. But then again there aren't many towns in here. How many countries there are in Europe and EU? Is it fair to ask, that people would then actually know what Europe is and what kind of places it consists of? We're talking about nations here for Michaels sake!

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Velociryx
The established players and prominent member states have set strict financial guidelines, including interest rate caps, deficit spending caps, and the like that apply to all member states. These caps (which even some of the established member states--France and Germany--have difficulty meeting are quite harsh to newly rebuilding economies, as they limit the power of these fledgling, recovering states to inject their economies (ie - the US spent her way out of the great depression via deficit government spending....

While you are at mentioning that even France and Germany have trouble you could also mention that they can face EU sanctions for this like any other members. So their control over the union doesn´t seem so strict, hm?

Then, with evil Chirac, and those measures which are (according to you) a problem for "newly rebuilding economies" - why do they still want to be in the EU where they are opressed and controlled? Or is that just another evil Franco-German plot?

...such a remedy would be in violation of EU monetary policy, and thus, not an option for an EU hopeful). Further, by virtue of the strengths of their economies, relative to the smaller economies that make up the EU, we see the potential for bulldogging....

That could be the case with or without the EU. Within the EU, there is at least a set of rules to avoid this. I don´t say these problems do not exist, but they exist much more between other states that compete which eachother without a common institutinal background (like the EU).

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Quote:

The established players and prominent member states have set strict financial guidelines, including interest rate caps, deficit spending caps, and the like that apply to all member states.

I remember that Ireland had an issue with this. The EU took them to task for breaking the economic guidelines, even though Ireland had one of the fastest growing economies in Europe.

Yeah, and to a good part this growth was due to EU money.

[Velociryx]

Bebro....we actually agree on more points than we disagree on. My main point was that it is false, at this stage in its development, to refer to the EU as a "unified economic entity." It is not.

That's apparently on the drawing board, but it is quite some distance away. For it to become a reality, the member states will NEED TO (not optional) give up a measure of their individual soveriegnty to the governing body. Till that happens, and we see barriers beyond tarriffs come tumbling down, it's a thin veneer stretched over a dozen plus different economies who (most of the time) act with a common purpose. That's not the same thing as a unified economy. Far from it.

As to EU membership, yes....those struggling nations will still want in for the easy access to the market, hoping that access TO those markets will help offset the limits to their economic controls that being a member mandates. That's hardly a sure thing, but is seen as the lesser of two evils, and in the long term, rightly so, however, in the short term, it is GOING to cause further economic hardship, and a delay in getting those nations on a truly paying basis.

And yes, on paper, France and Germany are subject to sanctions just like the rest, but as I recall (thread here recently?), there was a big battle brewing with France and Germany vs. the rest about that very thing (meaning, they're seeking an "exemption" from all that--memory is hazy here, but then, it's late and I'm on the way to bed.

The EU has some potential. Right now, it's largely a paper tiger, and will remain so until the members stop playing at being a truly unified economic force and get serious about it, but that is still some ways off, and faces NUMEROUS challenges along the way, not the least of which are Germany and France themselves.

-=Vel=-

EDIT: and the added layers of burocracy don't come free, either. Someone has to pay all the government yahoos, and for the minting of the common currency--in addition to the homegrown varieties, etc., etc.

[Pekka]

Keep the debate going on fellows. I'm going to Sleepolandia. And I'll be doing some dreaming about that Britney too.











USA! USA! USA!

[Velociryx]

You can put six guys together in a horse costume and prance him around a track, calling him a "unified race horse."

Odds are exceedingly good, however, that a real race horse will beat the pants off of him every time.

True?

-=Vel=-

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sandman
Disagreement is good. It's healthy. It's why we have free speech.

Is that why Chirac told the nations that disagreed with France and Germany's stance over Iraq that they should shut up?

[BeBro]

This is now the second or third time brought up in this thread. Chirac is not the big boss of the EU

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Is that why Chirac told the nations that disagreed with France and Germany's stance over Iraq that they should shut up?

We could get into how the US plans to and is punishing countries for their anti-war stance.

[Dauphin]

I have never really understood the argument for European federalisation. I don't see the need to hand over power to a 'superstate' unless it is beneficial, and I also wonder why so many fear that that is going to happen. If we don't want to sign up to an act of federation then we won't.

Also, recently, I've come to the view that the EU should never emphasise political unity, except where it is tied to pan-european issues and economics. Else why do it? It seems perverse to increase devolution within most European countries only to do the exact opposite withou European countries - with government powers going to Brussels.

I think where the EU comes into its own is the free movement of labour, goods etc. Basically the core reason why it was founded. I can get a job anywhere in Europe, whereas its very hard to emigrate to say the US, or even other commonwealth countries.

Co-operation is the key to the future of Europe, not unification. If we benefit by unifying branches of government departments or socio-economic policies or whatnot, then by all means do it. Wholesale transfers seem silly, case by case bases seems more logical to me.

And I am English at all times, I'm not a European - I'm from Europe.

[HershOstropoler]

This thread is amazingly stupid even by poly standards.

Pekka, what's your beef? Why do you feel so poor and discriminated?

Vel:

"As it stands now, the EU is doing slightly more than "playing at" being a unified economy. Sadly, it takes more than a lack of tarrifs and a "common currency" to create economic unity."

We're not a free trade zone like NAFTA.

"When last I heard, the so-called "common currency" was simply being overlaid across the top of each country's "regular" currency."

I have no idea what "overlaid" is supposed to mean. You refer to the transition phase? Ended at the end of 2001.

"For it to become a reality, the member states will NEED TO (not optional) give up a measure of their individual soveriegnty to the governing body."

No really. You don't think that has happened?

"Till that happens, and we see barriers beyond tarriffs come tumbling down, it's a thin veneer stretched over a dozen plus different economies who (most of the time) act with a common purpose. That's not the same thing as a unified economy. Far from it."

Like what? Non-tariff barrieres? Been in since 1958. State aid control? Competition law? Single market harmonization? Indirect taxation - never heard of the VAT directive, I suppose? Free movement of goods, people and capital?

Tell me, which barriers have come down in the US that still exist in the EU? You'll only find a few, and I can think of some where it's the other way round.

[Atahualpa]

Actually I do feel european. Not when thinking inner EU but when being confronted with the world.
Being confronted with EU members I feel austrian. Being confronted with the US, Canada, Asia, Africa I feel more european.

And I know very well the location of Finland and the name of its capital city as well.

My opinion about the EU is that in some terms they are more in favor for the people than the states are. Plus there is the european court where you can go even after the highest national court. Also the free movement in EU states is another plus.

Overall I am all positive about it. Plus you can rant what you want that wont make it better. I believe the EU is the only way for europe to go in the future.
The unified currency thing for example has convinced me. Even if people used that as excuse for upping the prices I think it was a good move and I fully support it.

About the British. I dont know what they think and personally I do not care much. They got their tick that they are so special and such and they need that obviously.
I guess this is what years of isolation have done to them. Or they are still pissed because they are not the great British empire they used to be.
Nevertheless I like them because they are funny. For example if you run on the side of a public bath pool there are like 5 watchman who turn to you and ask you if you are completely crazy
Or the tiny hills they warn you not to go up there because its sooo dangerous.

ata

[Pekka]

hershostopoler, I didn't have any beefs. I'm just here to brake some old myths. I only claimed, that Europe is not unified, I only said that we are not equal, and that we will not succeed because of that. As single countries we can succeed, but not in as a whole.

I don't know why people started crying about ecomonic things. I never claimed anything that has to do with economics.

[HershOstropoler]

"I'm just here to brake some old myths. I only claimed, that Europe is not unified"

"unified" is always a matter of degree.

"I only said that we are not equal"

"equality" is always a matter of degree.

"As single countries we can succeed, but not in as a whole."

Much better together.
As for identity, I have my state, my nation, Europe, and the world. Fail to see why I should eliminate a single one.