The Glory of Manifestos - Page 2

UnOrthOdOx · July 30, 2003, 09:22

Quote:

Even from GoW's POV, I'm sure you had realized that the offers that you've made us were garbage.

Cheers.

Thanks for informing me that all my hard work was seen as nothing but Garbage in the eyes of GS. I for one thought that I had offered very respectable offers for all that were involved in those negotiations. Both before and after the gifting of cities. Before, I was looking for a compromise to what both GS and ND insisted on. It was not even given a second look before the gifting of cities. After, I sought a RoP, nothing more. This was scoffed at by claiming GS wished to advantage neither GoW nor RP in the war, despite the fact you had a RoP with RP in place.

So, my time as your ambassador was garbage in your eyes. Fine. You could have saved me allot of trouble and time if you had informed me of that long ago.

Arrian · July 30, 2003, 09:25

UnO,

On a personal level, I'm sorry you worked hard for something that didn't pan out. Seriously, I am. It wasn't your fault. The gap between ND & GS was too big for you to bridge.

-Arrian

Shiber · July 30, 2003, 09:37

Vondrack: I'm glad that you think so too.

In fact, I'm not surprised. You've been a sensible voice during the Vox-GS affairs as well. Though I'm afraid that I wasn't as sensible back then.

Panzer32 · July 30, 2003, 09:40

Just posting that I'm here and I frankly don't care for the accusations flying around. Lets all be (enemy-)friends.

Shiber · July 30, 2003, 09:42

I'm going to set up a petition or something.

UnOrthOdOx · July 30, 2003, 09:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
UnO,

On a personal level, I'm sorry you worked hard for something that didn't pan out. Seriously, I am. It wasn't your fault. The gap between ND & GS was too big for you to bridge.

-Arrian

We are now far beyond that Arrian. There are at least some that feel the entire thing was nothing but garbage it would seem. It has nothing to do with the little attitude problems you two had. The whole original deals have been called garbage. A waste of time. Not working out is something else all together.

I finally understand where I went wrong though. GS never intended to negotiate. GS does not negotiate. I see that now. You do it their way or no way, no middle ground is to be had. My mistake. I was obviously not the right person for THAT job, for I am a negotiator myself.

Tiberius · July 30, 2003, 09:52

Darekill:

Boys, don't let personal feelings get into this. If I remember with nostalgia something from the Vox-GS war, it is the fight, the great strategies/tactics and surprising moves, the trash-talk and the humour. The game, with other words. No one ever won an insult war.
So let's play

Shiber · July 30, 2003, 09:56

UnOrthOdOx, you are overreacting.
I called your middle-ground offers garbage, and I'd be happy to explain myself away from the public forum if you'd like to hear me out. But you have no basis to make allegations against the other members of GS, trust me! I was voicing my own opinion, and it hardly represents the rest of the team. I'd hate it if my friends had to take heat because of something I said that solely represented my own views.
I understand that things are hectic in GoW's private forum, and that this whole ordeal may be very emotionally exhausting. I do allow wild emotions to take control over me from time to time too; believe me, when it comes to self-restraint, I'm far from perfect.
Please, if you want to talk, take a few moments and then PM me. If you don't, I understand, and I won't pester you about this again.

Arrian · July 30, 2003, 09:58

That's not true, UnO (GS didn't intend to negotiate). You may choose not to believe me, but we were open to negotiation - within reason (ah, that's the rub).

What was offered us, however, simply wasn't viable. If you looked at it from our perspective, surely that's obvious.

Frankly, we found the original offer (hey, GS, send your army over, help us destroy RP 3 - 1, but you don't get to keep any cities on Bob) insulting, but agreed to listen further - largely because of you. But it became more and more clear that the gap was too big. Meanwhile, RP contacted us with a different, and ultimately better, offer.

Anyway, like I said, I'm sorry if you feel your efforts were wasted. From what I know of internal GS discussions, that isn't true, even if your mission ultimately failed.

-Arrian

GhengisFarb™ · July 30, 2003, 09:59

Deleted.

Shiber · July 30, 2003, 09:59

Panzer, Vondrack, Tiberius and anyone else who shares the opinion that bickering and bitterness have no room in the public forum: if I started a petition to object insult wars, mud slinging and any other unsportive behavior and to encourage good humor and friendly trash-talking, would you sign it?

FrustratedPoet · July 30, 2003, 10:05

Quote:

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Roleplay and Gathering Storm haven't been able to do this, they historically only negotiate for themselves and their deals have typically been extremely one-sided in their favor.

I don't see how GS and RP's current arrangement (whatever the hell that is) could be extrememly one-sided in both our favours. Clearly at least one of us is willing to compromise on something.

GhengisFarb™ · July 30, 2003, 10:14

Deleted.

vondrack · July 30, 2003, 10:27

Sure, I would sign a petition - but what would it change?

There will always be personal emotions involved. We all need to keep learning to distinguish between ingame treachery and/or "evil" vs. outgame personal attacks/insults - I do not really believe any petition will change much in this aspect.

What about starting every post in a "hot" thread like this one with: "I realize this is a game. The other guy I am responding to is a fine lad/lass and I know that whatever sounds insulting to me was quite likely meant only as an ingame "roleplaying" (Copyright © 2002-2003 The Roleplay Team ? - ask some lawyer if this suffices... ). My response, which follows, is also to be understood as an ingame roleplay:

And do not copy it! Woodpeck it every time! I guess many of the posts would not get posted at all, others might look different...

And as someone else noted few posts above - the whole problem is that many of us try to "justify" their ingame deeds, claiming moral high ground... which in turn inevitably casts bad light at the "other side", which in turn counters by showing how "immoral" the fist party actually is and...

I do not think any team in this game can claim moral high ground (not even Lego!). And after all, I do not think we WANT anyone to HAVE moral high ground - it is bad for fun...

Gee, I really hate these party smilies... they break the post formatting so badly...

Jon Shafer · July 30, 2003, 10:38

Bah... quit with the long posts and put up your dukes and pass on the save!

It will be glorious!

Tiberius · July 30, 2003, 10:54

Quote:

Originally posted by vondrack
Gee, I really hate these party smilies... they break the post formatting so badly...

Ahh, and I thought I'm the only one

ZargonX · July 30, 2003, 11:03

Quote:

Bah... quit with the long posts and put up your dukes and pass on the save!

It will be glorious!

We have all accepted that everything we do here is for Trip's entertainment, right?

Arrian · July 30, 2003, 11:15

Quote:

After this post I definitely feel the teams are well aligned. GS and Roleplay deserve each other, both of these teams have played the game and conducted negotiations with the view that THEIR team is the human player and all the other teams are the AI. This is why GoW has been viewed as a deal monster. Our negotiations were done viewing the other team as well, a team. We try to negotiate a deal that has benefits for both sides not just our side.

That's a steaming pile of BS. We most certainly do not see other teams as if they're the AI. They are dangerous human opponents trying to win the game, just as we are.

If GoW & ND were the AI, none of us would have been overly concerned about them splitting BOB. But you're not. You're a helluva lot smarter than the AI, and such a situation would have sunk any chance at GS winning the game. Accordingly, we could not allow it. That left 2 options: 1) negotiate an alliance with ND & GoW that allowed us to capture & keep some of RP's cities; or 2) work something out with RP.

Since ND came across loud and clear that a lasting GS presence on BOB was unacceptable to them, and the proverbial clock was ticking, we went with RP's much more generous (of course! they needed us more than you did!) offer. We did not, however, violate the NAP.

Not that it matters. The "audience" here is essentially Lego & Vox. Vondrack, has made it quite clear that he doesn't particularly care who is "right" or "wrong." Lego, like the other teams, will act according to their interests. Vox as well, within the constraints of their relationship with Lego and their current resettling operations. Everyone else is involved in the war, and the lines are drawn.

-Arrian

Jon Shafer · July 30, 2003, 11:19

Quote:

Originally posted by ZargonX
We have all accepted that everything we do here is for Trip's entertainment, right?

If not, then you should.

GhengisFarb™ · July 30, 2003, 11:23

Deleted.

Arrian · July 30, 2003, 11:29

Wow, that's almost Fezzian.

-Arrian

Master Zen · July 30, 2003, 11:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Darekill
I'm pretty sure that no one is as coldblooded in Real Life then he is here in this game so come on be as mean as you think you need to be but stopp telling lies that no one will belive!

I am.

I think most people are missing the whole point of legality here. Sure, Civ is a win-or-lose game where backstabbing and treaty violations are sadly part of the game. But if people make such a fuss about them, why are they even there?

For a simple reason. We as humans seek to add a new dimension to this game by playing online, not limited to the game mechanics or the AI's way of playing. That's why we do things like NAPs, carve out continents, etc which the AI can never hope to do. The issue of legality and morals comes off as a precedent for the future: if the teams percieve Team Benedict Arnold, er... GS to have broken treaties and violated their word, will GS be trusted in the future? Not likely. That has long-term repercussions (which apparently GS does not see...)

Should a PTWDG III game arise with a re-hash of teams appear, will GS or RP be trusted again like they were at first in this one? Perhaps in the long run but with initial reservations, in other words, people start to "get to know each other", not as individuals but as a team.

GoW has made no rambles of upholding an unbreakable "honor code" or such. We have been labeled the opportunists of this game for this game and have openly expressed (and offered) our mercenarial nature more than once. Then why is it we went to such lenghts with RP and now with GS? Because we don't want to give the impression that despite being opportunists, we are traitors, and that we break deals at will. We violated no NAP against RP and our NAP with GS was violated the very moment they started impeding our advance in Spain.

If you compare what GoW has done to GS during the last 3 turns compared to what GS has done to GoW, it is quite obvious who has been inteferening and acting hostile to one another, and no matter how much you turn on the issue. If you also compare what had been going on between GoW and GS during the days before the war started it would be even more obvious. In fact every single action GS has taken as of late has been hostile to GoW and with the explicit intent of impeding our advance in Spain, their intent was obviously to hamper us as much as possible to the point where the NAP ran out when they would have most likely intervened directly, owning most of the non-conquered RP lands by then. As for negotiation, during the last 3 turns it has been like negotiation with a brick wall and it is no surprise why UnO quit as their ambassador. It is impossible to deal with people who have no intention whatsoever to take a middle ground. We were willing to ignore those hostile acts at first with the vain hope that GS's policy would change. It didn't and know we were forced to take the actions necessary to our own interests, and take them NOW.

There is no UN or similar body to say you are right and you are wrong, it is up to people to decide and then mold the foreign policy of their teams accordingly.

Aggie · July 30, 2003, 11:56

I feel that these arguements serve little purpose. Lets be honest we all came this game to fight and find excuses to fight. So we have finaly suceeded and created our first real world war. Congratulations all, well done. I for one hold no personal anger towards our game opponents, in the end it is just a game, and know that next time they might be on my team or allies. Now lets fight, I was getting bored. So may the best(or sometimes luckiest) team win.
Aggie(Consul of War for GOW)

Master Zen · July 30, 2003, 12:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Wow, that's almost Fezzian.

-Arrian

You are wrong. That argument is BS. You are a jewish fascist liberal commie.

Now THAT was Fezzian!

Shiber · July 30, 2003, 12:01

Aggie

Arrian · July 30, 2003, 12:06

edit: crossposting happens

MZ, you can't be serious. I mean...

Go back and re-read the "GoW you are the best allies ever!" thread and then read your [second to] last post - see if you can keep a straight face. GoW made it very clear to the world how they see agreements with other teams. GS heard you, believe me.

Furthermore, it is clear that we have a disagreement about what constitutes "hostile activity." GS has not attacked you. We have not violated your borders. We have accepted cities that were gifted to us, and we have denied your team a RoP.

The way I see it, a NAP is not a RoP. Nor, for that matter, is it a promise to do ANYTHING, besides not attack the other team.

We didn't attack you. Impeding your invasion is not an aggressive act. It isn't the act of an ally, but we didn't sign an alliance, we signed a NAP. As soon as it was no longer in your interests, you discarded it.

COME GET SOME!

-Arrian

History Guy · July 30, 2003, 12:10

Too bad, O too bad! Well, I hope that China remembers that anything it takes can be built up again, but once Imperial City burns it stays burnt!

Arnelos · July 30, 2003, 12:13

This thread is amazing.

...

The reasons why this war has worked out as it did are painfully simple.

Glory of War, blinded by their lust for vengeance against RP Team for bad relations in the past in the distant past (I'm more than WILLING to admit that RP Team had as much to do with the souring of relations as GoW... GhengisFarb and Togas did that one TOGETHER... it's a pity that few from GoW have ever had the rationality to overcome it in the months since, however) along with having people just bored of not fighting on their team, decided to attack RP Team in a particularly irrational move.

Neu Demogyptica, having long lusted after Spanish lands, was more than willing to accept the assistance of Glory of War in finally taking those lands.

GoW and ND tried to convince GS to help them, but in typical GoW fashion, offered them nothing substantial as compensation, apparently believing the communal hatred of RP Team would be enough, and indeed seemed to fully believe (as though GS were the AI) that they could ally with GS in this war, then backstab GS and conquer them in the next and GS would never be the wiser for their plans. GS not only doesn't want to HELP GoW and ND become more powerful at RP's expense (only an idiot of a GS leader would want that...), but rightly fears that a much larger ND and GoW become larger threats to GS.

GoW and ND move their forces into position for the war.

RP Team, clearly seeing that we cannot hope to survive against such odds, decides that the time for desperate measures is at hand. Arnelos and NYE begin negotiations for GS to aid RP Team.

The RP-GS aid agreement takes quite nearly a week to negotiate, but the deal is inked and ratified before the first ND blow even falls. As part of the agreement, RP transfers initially two cities to GS.

ND sees the GS city and attacks it, declaring war on GS. GoW sees the GS city and becomes spooked. As with the Spanish army, they decide to move around rather than attacking.

GS gifts Inchon to RP Team and RP Team gifts it back, moving troops about. RP Team and GS are quite pleased that no-one seems to notice this at the time.

GoW is incredibly pissed off at GS for doing the logical thing and agreeing to aid RP Team to fend off GoW and ND from becoming too powerful. GoW begins flaming GS, only serving to piss them off and cement the foundations of an RP-GS Alliance. Furthermore, GoW is apparently very pissed off and frustrated that their perfect "evil plan" isn't working out quite as they imagined it.

MasterZen of GoW starts making desperate pleas to Togas and Arnelos of RP Team to PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE not gift cities to GS or help GS win the game. Togas informs MasterZen that this is a situation of their own making - they chose not to accept ANY form of negotiation with RP Team, even when RP Team was willing to give them EXACTLY what they wanted in terms of splitting the continent 50/50. If GoW is really THAT concerned about RP Team doing something to help GS potentially win the game, GoW can always turn their riders around and go home rather than invading Spain.

RP Team does not actually expect GoW will turn around and go home. They've spent far too much time contemplating how they will exact their "vengeance" upon RP Team to have rationally considered that gang-banging RP Team just might not be in the interests of non-Bobian civs and they might have something to say about it. Even in the face of that potential knowledge, they won't turn back now... the war was always too personal for rationality to have overcome the desire to fight RP Team.

ND and RP forces engage in battle. GoW forces keep dilly-dallying about rather than attacking anything.

The number of GoW flame and whining PMs sent toward GS reaches "fever pitch" and it becomes apparent that GoW may finally declare war, though we certainly are not rushing them along.

More ND-RP engagements. GoW finally razes Bilbao and declares war on GS as well as posting a very long whining post in the public forum. No surprises there.

Flame war commences

-----------

Now, let's face it. The reason GoW is in this war, despite it being contrary to things that would better serve their rational interests for potentially winning the game, is that many on their team still have a huge chip on their shoulder regarding RP Team.

They've been so completely focused on taking down RP Team and believing that everyone on the planet must hate RP Team as much as they do that the idea that we might actually be able to work out an agreeement for GS to aid us was apparently not even considered.

In effect, GoW was blinded by their own irrational fixation on destroying RP Team.

Now that they've been blindsided due to their own self-imposed form of blindness, they are whining and crying about it rather than just putting up their dukes and agreeing to a far more fair fight than the unfair fight they had planned.

By complete contrast, while ND has been very non-negotiable in terms of their desire to take over Spanish lands, their desire is respectable as both RATIONAL toward potentially winning the game and they have NOT WHINED in the public forum or in PMs regarding RP Team and GS efforts to defend Spain and present a FAIR FIGHT. They have taken the additional difficulties as new challenges to be overcome and have done admirably at presenting a foe.

So... GoW:

Stop the whining already and just fight the fair fight. If you win, you'll get far more bragging rights than you could have ever possibly received from defeating RP Team 2-on-1 with your UU's and GA's. There would have been no glory in that victory.

So just put on a stiff upper lip and deal with it. You've taken every hit you've received in this game far too personally.

Master Zen · July 30, 2003, 12:18

of course a NAP is not a RoP

that's why we still had hope you would allow passage through the now-unrecognized rebellious Spanish territories.

It is plain that the term "hostile activities" was apparently poorly worded and did not have the same meaning to you than to us. That is understandeable being it such a vague wording, yet despite the fact it meant nothing specific, it also encompassed a broad variety of actions, many of which we felt you did in fact breach.

There are many things short of war one can do in this game which can be hostile: How would GS have felt if Vox in its last act gifted northern Estonia to Lego right before GS was about to take it? How would GS have felt if another nation sent enough ships to blockade any and all GS ports without actually touching your borders? How would GS feel if another nation landed a huge stack of troops in a tile in your continent just outside your borders?

See what I'm getting at? If you think GS did not do anything hostile to GoW, just put on a pair of Glory of Shades and see the world in a different light.

And for the record, this whole trash-fest is not meant to convince GS of their wrongdoing, or for GS to convince GoW of their own PoV, it's here to convince everyone else...

Arnelos · July 30, 2003, 12:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
edit: crossposting happens

MZ, you can't be serious. I mean...

Go back and re-read the "GoW you are the best allies ever!" thread and then read your [second to] last post - see if you can keep a straight face. GoW made it very clear to the world how they see agreements with other teams. GS heard you, believe me.

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is why I started that thread to begin with. I knew someone like Master Zen would be unable to resist the temptation to make a post just like the one he made. The fact that I actually agree with much of what he said (and even dared to say so) is irrelevant. GS did care.

The whole point of the thread was accomplished when Gathering Storm got the message I wanted sent, not from RP Team (understandbly an unreliable source), but straight from the horse's mouth at Glory of War.