The whole wide world

Knecht · July 30, 2003, 14:26

I have always played on the largest map possible both with Civ II and Civ III (and in Civ III, I really like Pangaean maps). The slow discovery of distant lands and peoples beyond my borders has, for me, always been a central part of the Civilization mystique. I also enjoy games that last for a week or more as this gives me a greater feeling of historicity, each game having a unique character and a past that soon becomes distant. I really like the feature at the end of Civ III that lets you replay the whole game - I like watching the cities appear (and disappear) and saying "oh yeah, I remember that" about something that (since it actually happened last week, I had all but forgotten). Anyway, while I'm sort of addicted to the big maps, it does raise a problem or two for me (or seems to, at any rate). While the REXing strategy so often recommended in these forums works just as well on big maps, early rushing of other civs is more of a problem. More often than not, there are large distances and obstacles between you and your nearest neighbor. Even using horsemen or other fast movers, the likelihood that they will have to traverse jungles or mountainous terrain erases their advantage. It often takes so long for an expeditionary force to reach even the nearest Civ that by the time they get there, even your own tech advances have rendered the units obsolete and your army of horsemen is up against swordsmen or even pikemen and generally outclassed. My first question would be (to those that also like big maps), do you still try and rush your neighbors in ancient times and, if so, how do you go about it? Or, alternatively, do you wait until the middle ages by which time you usually have Chivalry and you and your neighbors have expanded into each other (and many of the advantages of hitting them when they're small are lost)? Another issue with large maps is the problem of resources. Very often those precious iron deposits are so far away that it takes forever to nail them down and thus to gain a tech advantage over your neighbors. The third problem I have is deciding when to quit REXing. On huge maps, you often have so much time and space in which to expand that you can really spend all your time building settlers and workers (who spend most of their time just building roads to connect all those cities) that you never get around to building city improvements, defensive units, etc. Is there some finite number at which you say "I've got enough cities" and turn to other things or do you just keep doing it until there's no more room? Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Arrian · July 30, 2003, 14:43

I've only played 1 huge map game, and it wasn't a mega map (largest possible), just the regular 'ole "huge" available at startup.

I suspect from your description that I haven't played anything that resembles your favored settings. So though I'd like to help, I'd have to make all sorts of assumptions that are probably wrong... and you know where that gets us.

-Arrian

ChrisiusMaximus · July 30, 2003, 16:51

I love the big maps too and all the points you make concerning the distance of neighbours in the early game and distance of resources are all to familiar to me.

To answer your question I usually build until theres no space left, but to make it easier to connect all those cities I tend to play an industrious civ to build the roads faster when playing a huge map. Sometimes I use the increased production option as well to help speed up city development, but not every game.

If its a pangea map Ill focus on getting the Lighthouse and search for those islands you always seem to get with an isolated civ on them, and usually try to take over their cities outright. Its one way of expanding your civ still further when the rex phase on the mainland has finished. I always try to gobble up any islands to prevent the other civs from settling their but with varying levels of success, they make good staging posts for gathering invasion forces in the later game.

One thing true about the larger maps is that wars are much tougher and take much longer especially when facing an opponent with access to all the late game units but I love the immense scale of it all.

Sitting Bull · July 31, 2003, 05:48

I don't play huge maps because rexing takes forever, as you pointed out, instead I usually play large maps with only 7 opponent civs. This usually avoids excessively early war (by intent), but mid/late ancient war is usually possible. I have found it a better balance. Try it.

Knecht · July 31, 2003, 15:22

Thanks for your reply, ChrisiusMaximus. Based upon the dearth of replies to this thread, I'm guessing that we lovers of big maps are few. It also seems that the problems I noted go with the territory and must be tolerated. I might do as Sitting Bull has suggested and try the next notch down but I still like the big maps, which brings me to you, Arrian. I appreciate your honesty and reserve but I'm afraid that your mention of a mega map has intrigued me. I have been playing the original Civ III with the 1.29f patch and, as far as I can tell, the largest map size is huge. If there is a random map larger than huge I'd love to try it. Can you point me in the right direction? Does it come with Play the World? Huger than huge? Absolutely. You betcha. I wannit.

Panzer32 · July 31, 2003, 16:26

In the editor, you can generate an amazinly huge map (like more than 300 x 300).

Jaybe · July 31, 2003, 18:07

Quote:

... I also enjoy games that last for a week or more as this gives me a greater feeling of historicity, each game having a unique character and a past that soon becomes distant. ...

I scoff at your quick week-long games! Mine are months-long (ya know, 60+ hours).

Though you've got me on the size department. Haven't played a Huge map lately, and I definitely haven't played a mega-huge game where you run into the 512-city limit. I do prefer a couple of continents.

Knecht · July 31, 2003, 18:43

Quote:

I scoff at your quick week-long games! Mine are months-long (ya know, 60+ hours).

Thanks for putting things in perspective, Jaybe. To what do you attribute the great length of these games? I see that you live in Las Vegas, could it be the lack of clocks?

Sorry, I couldn't resist that. But, really, you must micromanage the hell out of those games to make them last so long. My hat is off.
To Panzer32, thanks for the tip. I've just started a game with a 256 X 256 map (that's the max). I may regret it, but I just have to see what it's like.

vmxa1 · July 31, 2003, 19:55

I have played a number of huge and even one mega. I am not fond of them, because if it takes 80 hours to play, I will try to get it done in 5 days.
Anyway, I do not rush in ancient age in those maps as it hurts me as much as them. The reason (IMO) for a rush in std maps, is I will need that land and it buys time, if I kill them right away. This is not the case in huge maps.
I will expand and grab all the land I can, this is anoher boring aspect in a huge map, as this phase is too long.
I want all I can get, because it may have resources and I will want to get to any luxs quickly.

Sitting Bull · July 31, 2003, 21:45

The last time I tried a huge map I played Iroqouis and popped so many huts I was getting stuff like map making and polytheism while I still had like 2 or 3 cities.
Let us know how it goes. It will be interesting, though I wouldn't want to do it, lol.

Jaybe · July 31, 2003, 23:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Knecht
Thanks for putting things in perspective, Jaybe. To what do you attribute the great length of these games? ...

Yes, I DO micromanage, manually control my workforce (like any good player does

), strategize, contemplate, ... and I'm not that quick of a thinker in the first place!

As to clocks, WHO looks at a timepiece while they are playing Civ!?

vmxa1 · August 1, 2003, 01:04

Well if the turns are taking 10's of minutes, you can't help looking at the time.

Cort Haus · August 1, 2003, 05:44

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
To answer your question I usually build until theres no space left,

But after a while you don't get anything from those cities, surely. They'll never serve up more than a single shield/gold, so are they worth the expense of a defending unit & maybe temple?

I noticed the AI calls it a day on new cities once the ?OCN? limit is reached.

ChrisiusMaximus · August 1, 2003, 05:54

Cort youre right that they are pretty much useless in the early game those far flung cities but when developed and large in the late game they pull their own weight, not all of them but a fair percentage.

Ive also seen the AI continue to build way past the OCN on some maps, again not every time but yes occasionally.

On a large map its more to do with control of the area more than vastly increasing youre production.

badman · August 2, 2003, 19:16

You don't need to REX until you have every free tile occupated.
It's enough to claim some good land. You can stop REXing when you share a border with your neighbour.
Then I usually attack with Swordsmen or Horsemen. Archers are useless on huge maps.

I don't often play on huge maps due to my slow computer.

Mountain Sage · August 4, 2003, 08:10

Knecht,

Some useful threads. (I know, those are mine

)

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=88300

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=85124

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=86750

Good luck and enjoy it.

Knecht · August 4, 2003, 20:27

Many thanks to Mountain Sage. Great thread Mr. Sage. As my grandaddy used to say, you done druv it into the ground and busted it off. By chance, I am playing the Chinese in the mega game I started a few days ago and you're right, the 3 square range of those riders is a big advantage - ditto the industrious workers. The GA worked just like you said too. Even though I opted for a Pangaean map, I wound up on the smaller of two continents (this sometimes happens with Pangaea - don't know why but it doesn't always live up to the definition). This left me alone with three other Civs and I think maybe that with so many Civs in the game, this was an advantage. I'm still hovering between 2nd and 3rd place out of the eleven total I started with which, considering my skills, isn't too bad. I already wiped out the Greeks and am gearing up to take over my little continent. Hopefully that will put me in first place. I might even have time to stage a channel invasion if things go well. I don't know if I balanced things out correctly when I set this thing up though. Because this mega map was about a 60% increase over the huge maps I usually play on, I bumped everything else up by 60% too, i.e., 11 civs instead of the seven I usually play with, 32 instead of 24 for the distance between civs, 50 for optimal number of cities, and 640 for the tech rate (I have no idea what tech rate means but I figured it has something to do with map size so I amped it up). Do you think I gave myself too much of a break (I'm playing on Regent), or was that the right way to go?

Mountain Sage · August 5, 2003, 07:03

Knecht,

Looks fine, but I never tamper maps. But 11 civs with a mega map means HUGE empires (40+ cities). Are you going to take them by military conquest? If so, send us a pic of your 300+ military and good luck. See you in your next game around Xmas

Another piece of advice: don't worry about your rank. I won many games by being in the middle of the pack but won either a diplomatic or a space race victory.
Also keep in mind that you don't have to destroy the other civs on your island. Check Vel's thread about 'Vassal States' and/or the Civ 3 glossary (a separate thread).
Have fun and keep us posted.

Knecht · August 5, 2003, 19:33

I thought I read someplace that there's always at least one of every resource on every continent. Maybe I dreamt it. Anyway, I'm stuck on a continent with no oil. Four Civs on this continent and nobody has any oil! Now I have to mount an amphibious invasion. #%@!*#
Yeah, an another thing. I set this game up as Pangaea but there's two continents. When I order one continent, I only want one! I wanna talk to the chef! There's two continents and I'm on the one that doesn't have any oil! I mean, what good is it being a god if you can't have your way?

Okay, I needed that. I feel better now. Think I'll take a nap now.

vmxa1 · August 5, 2003, 21:00

I hear a lot of complaints about the pangea maps not being done well. They say the larger the map, the more likely it is to be accurate to your design.
Anyway I don't think that there is any guarntee of resources being on all continents and have been without some often. It can be be painful. Good luck on your invasion.

zorbop · August 5, 2003, 23:43

i always play large or huge maps. i find standard boring. you can conquer so many enemies so fast, your score is about twice that of any opponent, even on the highest difficulties.

one thing i find with larger maps is that i often find an ai opponent or 2 that become immensely powerful- and it is a real challenge being at war with them.

Mountain Sage · August 6, 2003, 03:11

Invasion?
You should read my threads more carefully.

Trade for the oil, stay at home and improve your empire.
Oh! and join the PP club. It's free of charge.

georges bonbon · August 6, 2003, 05:16

Hail to the lovers of huge maps.

TheArsenal · August 6, 2003, 11:49

I generally play on huge or large maps, depending on how "quick" I want the game to be. I haven't played but a very few number of games on the standard map, but find it a little too stunted and claustrophobic for my taste. I feel the games lose the "epic" quality.

That said, the other day I cursed my ever wanting to play huge maps. I was on a large island alone, on my way to completing the Great Library. To make use of the wonder, I went on suicide runs to establish contact with other civs. The RNG gods laughed in my face as I lost ten - ten - galleys before giving up and waiting for them to come to me.

Mountain Sage · August 7, 2003, 06:52

TheArsenal,

Good to know I'm not the only one who faces the wrath of the RNG gods.
When I am alone on an island and since I play commercial civs with Alphabet as a free tech, I always go for the GLibrary AND the GLighthouse;
My first 2 cities build these two wonders and my lonely 3rd settler is in charge of founding my 3rd city and having babies. Your REX is slowed but since you are all alone...

Knecht · August 7, 2003, 14:39

Well, Sage, in my own defense, I did think of swapping for the oil myself though I had to give up a whole tech for it. Trouble is, out of all those civs, only one had an extra oil and wouldn't take anything but Atomic Theory for it. Still, I am in first place (just barely) and I already have the Hoover, so I figure let 'em have it because soon I'll own my whole continent and can then jump those punk Indians on the mainland and get their oil. I am doing better in this game than usual and I think it's because all the other civs are fighting each other and nobody is attacking me (that's a genuine first). Wish I knew how I pulled it off. Now, about these acronyms. You guys keep driving me crazy with the dogbone acronyms. I have to keep looking them up in the abbreviation thread and now you come up with two that aren't even there. Okay, so what's the PP club? Penny Pinchers? Party Poopers? And also, who the heck are the RNG gods? Really Nice Guys? Real Nasty Girls? And while I'm on the subject, there's an acronym for "Kill mother-effing Depeche Mode" As far as I tell, this is French for "fast fashion" (whatever that is) and the only other reference I can find is to some rock band by that name. Are Civ players opposed to this band for some reason?

Theseus · August 7, 2003, 22:32

Perfect Peacenik.

Random Number Generator.

KDM? Do you mean ADM... attack-defense-move?

Knecht · August 7, 2003, 22:40

Thanks for the translation, Theseus.
The other one I asked about was in the abbreviation thread in the Civ III General forum:

"KMFDM Kill mother-effing Depeche Mode"

???

Mountain Sage · August 8, 2003, 03:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Knecht
Now, about these acronyms. You guys keep driving me crazy with the dogbone acronyms. I have to keep looking them up in the abbreviation thread and now you come up with two that aren't even there. Okay, so what's the PP club? Penny Pinchers? Party Poopers? And also, who the heck are the RNG gods? Really Nice Guys? Real Nasty Girls? And while I'm on the subject, there's an acronym for "Kill mother-effing Depeche Mode" As far as I tell, this is French for "fast fashion" (whatever that is) and the only other reference I can find is to some rock band by that name. Are Civ players opposed to this band for some reason?

Read the top-thread 'Glossary for Civ 3 Startegy' for the acronyms. Many of them have even a sound explanation.

Theseus: thanks for the help, you were ahead of me (time zones again!).

Knecht · August 8, 2003, 14:08

Thanks for the tip guys. The glossary thread also has the best explanations I have seen of some of the basic Civ strategies. However, it doesn't mention "depeche mode" which is mentioned twice in the abbreviations thread in the general forum, specifically the killing thereof. Further research reveals that Depeche Mode is not only a rock band but also a French fashion magazine the literal translation of which is, I think, Fashion Dispatch, or maybe just Fashion News. Kill the fashion news? What the heck does that have to do with Civ? Can't wait to hear the explanation.