Is Homosexuality a choice?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
MrFun nailed the answer, from my point of view.

I thought the agreement between you and me, was that we are never suppose to agree.

[SlowwHand]

Yeah, but I give up.
I'm getting too easy to get along with in my advanced years.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Yeah, but I give up.
I'm getting too easy to get along with in my advanced years.

Well you know in spite of the "krap" I give you sometimes, I like you here on Apolyton?

[SlowwHand]

[Japher]

aaahhhh, you two just had a moment

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Japher
aaahhhh, you two just had a moment

And then we forget all about it next time we discuss any issues of historiography and Civil War.

[SlowwHand]

I'm going to kick Japher's ass, I'll tell you what.






(says Sloww in his best Hank Hill impersonation)

[Japher]

Civil War: Is 'Gods and Generals' any good? If you've seen it of course...

As for the choice of homosexuality; I don't really care. I feel people sometimes can't help what they are and sometimes they can. Practicing homosexuality is obviously a choice, yet so is practicing anything. Is it genetic? I don't know. Probably just as genetic as someone being good at math or liking dogs more than cats. Maybe their is some social influences that it takes, maybe?

The one thing that makes me wonder is that in history it seems that there were societies were homosexuality was not as frowned upon. Almost all Romans, for example, were bi-sexual and kept lovers as well as a wife. Was this natural/genetic? If so then what changed some of us to be straight? Was it sociological? If so than what changed the attitude of the world, and what is changing it back again?

To me, I stopped caring sometime ago, but the question still haunts me. I think a better question would be; Is sexuality, in general, a choice? That way homosexuals are singled out as being the exception to the norm, as it seems the norm fluctuates...

[Agathon]

Again, does it really matter whether one's sexuality is due to nature or nurture?

What we have is a bunch of blokes who fancy blokes and the evidence that all the "reform poofs" campaigns have failed miserably. Those are the facts.

Even if homosexuality could be avoided by appropriate child rearing mechanisms, can someone offer me a good reason why we should care to do so? Gay people seem to like being gay, so what's the problem?

I have yet to see evidence beyond the fact that Boris is a subversive commie sympathiser and Fez being most likely Apolytoner to conduct a fascist purge, that homosexuality is a great danger to society and civilisation. In the absence of such evidence isn't homosexuality a non-issue?

[Japher]

I'm going to kick Japher's ass, I'll tell you what.

Please don't, I already have a headache, I couldn't handle another blow

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Agathon
Again, does it really matter whether one's sexuality is due to nature or nurture?

What we have is a bunch of blokes who fancy blokes and the evidence that all the "reform poofs" campaigns have failed miserably. Those are the facts.

Even if homosexuality could be avoided by appropriate child rearing mechanisms, can someone offer me a good reason why we should care to do so? Gay people seem to like being gay, so what's the problem?

I have yet to see evidence beyond the fact that Boris is a subversive commie sympathiser and Fez being most likely Apolytoner to conduct a fascist purge, that homosexuality is a great danger to society and civilisation. In the absence of such evidence isn't homosexuality a non-issue?

I agree for the most part. But there are serious problems and issues within gay society and these problems come from within the gay society, as well as from homophobia in the rest of society. None of these problems exist JUST BECAUSE some people are gay -- they are societal problems that can be resolved without the fantasy of changing people to become straight.

For instance, a gay couple raising a child of their own will experience many problems that straight parents do not experience, because of the toleration of homophobia in schools and communities. The problem is not with the stable, responsible gay couple.

Another example -- during the emergence of the AIDS epidemic, gay bathouse owners turned their heads the other way in the spirit of greed and calluous disregard to their patron's public health. They received information about how the disease was probably spreading early on, yet they refused to take any significant action. This is an example of a problem arising from within gay society.

Oh, and about Fez and Boris -- well, I think you might have to apologize to Boris for mentioning him in the same sentence as Fez.

[SlowwHand]

As soon as I finish reading "The Patriot", it's on to "Gods and Generals".

[Japher]

I was just going to rent the movie.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
As soon as I finish reading "The Patriot", it's on to "Gods and Generals".

The Patriot was lame IMO.

Now Gods and Generals -- much better.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon
Again, does it really matter whether one's sexuality is due to nature or nurture?

What we have is a bunch of blokes who fancy blokes and the evidence that all the "reform poofs" campaigns have failed miserably. Those are the facts.

Even if homosexuality could be avoided by appropriate child rearing mechanisms, can someone offer me a good reason why we should care to do so? Gay people seem to like being gay, so what's the problem?

I have yet to see evidence beyond the fact that Boris is a subversive commie sympathiser and Fez being most likely Apolytoner to conduct a fascist purge, that homosexuality is a great danger to society and civilisation. In the absence of such evidence isn't homosexuality a non-issue?

Wait, Agathon, aren't you a communist?

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Worthingtons



DOH! - That was my exact argument - IF it was Genetic Evolution would have taken it out!!

As for seeing a Female, yes, i would say I'm straight - But when i see that female it is Natrual to be attracted to them, i dont choose it. My Argument is that Gays Choose to be Gay, but not neccesarily based on pure attraction - I think it is sometimes down to bad experiences with Women, or misinterpreting feelings for other blokes.

Well DOH! It's obviously not a genetic issue...although some genetic combinations may lend themselves towards a disposition to being homosexual...the phenotype is obviously far more environmentally dependent - down to things that no one can attribute...

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Agathon
Again, does it really matter whether one's sexuality is due to nature or nurture?

Well I think it matters to some religious people.

There is a religious guy in GB, who is proud of converting Homosexuals into Heteros with the Power of faith, by letting them undergo some kind of spiritual purge which made them repent their "sins" and be heterosexual.

And I think there are a lot of people in other country especially in the religious sector), who claim the same.

So I think for them it might be important to make clear that Homosexuals made the choiceto be gay or lesbian sinners out of their own free will and so also can be brought back to being Hetero).

So on the other Hand it might be helpful for the homosexual Community, to get a proof, that Homosexuality is genetic and that there is no free will involved, just to take the wind out of the sails of those religious zealots.

btw. thats what Jack Chick (as an example for those ultrareligious people) made out of it
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0084/0084_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0273/0273_01.asp

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST

Well I think it matters to some religious people.

Who have already demonstrated that they aren't prepared to take empirical evidence into account.

So let's ignore those who will believe what they want, come what may, and focus on the reasonable people.

These people will oppose homosexuality whether or not it is learned or genetic anyway.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by skywalker
Nothing. Did I say it was? I have no problem with gay people (unless they start stalking me or something ).

I didn't realize this was a good/bad debate. I'm just answering the question in the thread title.

I have noticed this qualifier (as highlighted in bold) come in too many times. If it was a woman stalking you, you would be flattered...if it is a man it is something else. Why would it be any less flattering? At least you have an easier get-out (I'm not that way inclined, etc)...or is it for other reasons...I always get suspicious when people add that qualifier...

[Kuciwalker]

I would dislike it because it puts highly disturbing images into my head...

I know that some people do not find them disturbing but I personally do. I don't mind if other people do it, but I have no wish to have homosexual relations.

[Provost Harrison]

Nobody is expecting you to have a homosexual relationship, but why wouldn't you be in the least bit flattered by it? I mean, it is nice to know you are wanted...

[Kuciwalker]

Maybe I would be flattered if I thought about it, but my strong initial reaction would be to ask them to stop.

[Worthingtons]

[small] Originally Posted by Harrison[/small]
Well DOH! It's obviously not a genetic issue...although some genetic combinations may lend themselves towards a disposition to being homosexual...the phenotype is obviously far more environmentally dependent - down to things that no one can attribute...

But Many people in this thread, such as boris seem to think it IS a genetic issue, which explains me trying to reason it's unlikely.

There seems to be 3 factors

Genetic
Enviromental
Choice

My Argue is that each has a significance and therefore the answer to the initial question is yes, although it doesnt tell the whole story.
I would say each factor has the following significance

Genetic :- Very Small, but still possible
Environment :- Very Signifanct
Choice :- Slightly Signifacant.


As to how important it all is, I don't really know, I'm simply giving my views on Sava's question. I only thought Homosexual's and Homephobes actually cared.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Worthingtons
But Many people in this thread, such as boris seem to think it IS a genetic issue, which explains me trying to reason it's unlikely.

I absolutely said no such thing. I pointed out why your reasoning for ruling it out as an issue of nature was flawed, I made no case for it being genetic myself. I also pointed out that just because something isn't genetic doesn't mean it isn't biologically determined.

Ag: I am not now, nor have I ever been, a communist. Nor a sympathizer of communism. I am, at most, a Democratic Socialist, with a few libertarian social leanings. I happen to like stuff, and don't intend to let any commies change my materialistic ways.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Worthingtons

Genetic :- Very Small, but still possible
Environment :- Very Signifanct
Choice :- Slightly Signifacant.

My uncle comes from a very catholic upbringing. His father was your normal irish catholic father in the 50s (so assume what you will.) He lost his mother while he was in his 20s. He is VERY homosexual.

Now, first off, this is not the type of "environement" that would "produce" homosexuality in a person.

Second...he has 9 siblings, 6 of which are men. None of them are homosexual, and indeed each has a certain belief towards homosexuality (my father supports gays, one uncle is a catholic brother and takes the Vatican's stance, one is an extreme fundamentalist).

How, then, can it be environmental?

(Keep in mind, this is also the SAME uncle who said "Why on Earth would you actually think I would CHOOSE to be this way?")

[Sikander]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous


My uncle comes from a very catholic upbringing. His father was your normal irish catholic father in the 50s (so assume what you will.) He lost his mother while he was in his 20s. He is VERY homosexual.

Now, first off, this is not the type of "environement" that would "produce" homosexuality in a person.

Second...he has 9 siblings, 6 of which are men. None of them are homosexual, and indeed each has a certain belief towards homosexuality (my father supports gays, one uncle is a catholic brother and takes the Vatican's stance, one is an extreme fundamentalist).

How, then, can it be environmental?

(Keep in mind, this is also the SAME uncle who said "Why on Earth would you actually think I would CHOOSE to be this way?")

(Emphasis above is mine.)

Could your uncle have been molested by a priest, or by another boy who was acting out after being molested?
I'm not saying molestation is necessary for someone to become gay, nor am I saying that everyone who is molested becomes gay. We all know that this isn't true by a longshot. But might the introduction of the idea of homosexual sex and possibly imprintation of that idea in the mind of a molested boy have some impact on whether or not he later becomes gay or bisexual? More religious people tend to bury memories of molestation deeper than others, as it often destroys their world view thouroughly, especially when the molester is a priest. In such a case it is much more like incest in terms of damage done.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous


My uncle comes from a very catholic upbringing. His father was your normal irish catholic father in the 50s (so assume what you will.) He lost his mother while he was in his 20s. He is VERY homosexual.

Now, first off, this is not the type of "environement" that would "produce" homosexuality in a person.

Second...he has 9 siblings, 6 of which are men. None of them are homosexual, and indeed each has a certain belief towards homosexuality (my father supports gays, one uncle is a catholic brother and takes the Vatican's stance, one is an extreme fundamentalist).

How, then, can it be environmental?

(Keep in mind, this is also the SAME uncle who said "Why on Earth would you actually think I would CHOOSE to be this way?")

It doesn´t have to be environmental Factors your Uncle himself knows about.
Many thing influence people in their earliest childhood and, some things are even better acquired during childhood than later.
I mentioned the Imprint of Zebrafinches earlier during this Thread. They have a sensual Phase for Sexual Imprinting, which lasts from the 15s to 40s day of their Life. Any imprintings you make during this period (for example to show courtship behaviour on other species of Birds) remains stable for the rest of their Life and can´t be altered after the 40s day of their life.
I won´t say that humans could have the same mechanism as Birds, but just wanted to show, that Experiences in early childhood could have effects for a whole life.

So maybe, your Uncle doesn´t remember the events which lead to him becoming homosexual (if it is caused by environment) as they happened too early in his life, but their Effects had an impact on his whole life.

[MrFun]

If I went around asking all my straight family members and straight friends if they chose to be straight, they would probably look at me strangely, as if "What kind of a question is that?"

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


So maybe, your Uncle doesn´t remember the events which lead to him becoming homosexual (if it is caused by environment) as they happened too early in his life, but their Effects had an impact on his whole life.

He doesn't remember events because there weren't any events. According to him, he's had a very calm life. He just always knew he was different.

As far as child molestation goes, if it happened to one brother it happened to all of them, because they all attended the same highschool and same church. According to my father, there really wasn't anything. If there had been (remember, Irish Brothers), they would have "taken care" of it with the priest.

[Japher]

Mr. Fun

I chose to be straight. The same way I chose the color of my hair, eyes, skin, talents, skills, abilities, likes, dislikes, etc...

I use to hate the taste of sheit, but I learned to like it, and now I really like it, and my dog and I eat it all the time....

Oh Wait, That NEver Happened!!!

Sometimes people just are the way they are and like the things they like, because that is what they like and that is who they are.

Question: What's your favorite color? Is that genetic? My favorite color is Hot CHick COlor.