Indisputable Abortion FACTS: - Page 14

blackice · August 10, 2003, 17:45

Asuka yet another example of the lack of humanity in the human beast. I bet you belong to save the animals foundation? Again justify it as you will. An unborn human is just that, go kill a few feel the power. You just lead us back to parasites and animals...

st_swithin it takes two to tango it also takes two to raise the child, todays society would have us believe only one has the rights and or the ability to say live or die. One has to assume then if the male partner has no say what so ever then the female partner must then assume all responsibility. This of course is wrong and hopefully will change for the betterment of the children involved. Born or unborn.

DNA is a godsend for those close to 1 million men paying child support for children who are not thiers also...

yavoon · August 10, 2003, 17:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless

How far do you want to take this?

No medical assistance for the victims of car crashes. Let them stay trapped in the wreckage until they bleed to death or die of thirst. It's their fault for being on the road.

Abolish fire-fighters. Nobody should live in inflammable buildings, smoke, use gas for heating or cooking, own faulty electrical appliances, or light bonfires. Let these people burn.

Abolish the military and police. Anyone who can't defend his own property deserves to lose it. They shouldn't own so much stuff anyhow.

what inane examples. I know ur trying to just be argumentative. but like anyone would just give ur ass an F here.

do u really want me to respond? or is this just so we can get to 500 posts?

Gibsie · August 10, 2003, 17:56

st_swithin, what the Hell is your damn problem?! Whether a foetus is a parasite or not is immaterial, it still does what it does either way. You might find, however, that some people do not like foetuses insulted simply because of their nature- even if it technically a parasite or not, it's still offensive to refer to a foetus as a parasite, just as if you were to refer to the child of an unmarried parent as a bastard. You might want to grow up a little yourself and look beyond the black and white world your mind seems to live in.

And before you get all high and mighty because I called women "whores" who "spread their legs" you might want to actually take a look at my posts a bit harder because I put them in speech marks just like you did to express my disdain for those terms thrown around by pro-lifers.

I would add a joke about how it must be your time of the month, but instead I'm just curious why you responded so angrily to me when I am one of the last people here who would throw around blame to pregnant women.

yavoon · August 10, 2003, 18:02

Quote:

Originally posted by st_swithin
If it gets ratified that my embryo has the same rights I do, then it should get the fvck out of my uterus and get its own goddam apartment and get a job.

I'm REFUSE to support it - I'd want an abortion, but OOOOOooOOOOOh NOOOO - some a55hole decides that after he sticks his **** somewhere that everything that comes out afterwards is his.

Out of spite, I'd sh1t the little monster out and send it to live with its biological Dad.

Well, here ya go. *POOF!*

How's that prostate feeling now? Gosh, that sure is going to hurt on the way out, huh?

someone feeling a lil oppressed today?

Az · August 10, 2003, 19:04

I've always been rather split on this issue...
...after reading this thread, I am inclined to agree more with the anti-abortion arguement. maybe I'll pick it up next time the issue pops up.

Dr Strangelove · August 10, 2003, 20:08

Quote:

Originally posted by blackice

DNA is a godsend for those close to 1 million men paying child support for children who are not thiers also...

Wasn't there a recent court decision that a non-biological father might still be responsible for the support of a child whom he had effectively acted as the father for a certain period of time even?

Az · August 10, 2003, 20:11

Even if he didn't know it was not his son?

Dr Strangelove · August 10, 2003, 23:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
Even if he didn't know it was not his son?

Yep, apparently so. There is an old standard of law that you cannot voluntarily deprive a person of the standard of living they have become accustomed to. That's why when you marry into a wealthy family you are generally held to be entitled to a good chunk of the horde no matter what.

blackice · August 11, 2003, 01:10

Dr Strangelove: Yes can you imagine a decision like this? Picture this woman tells man they are your children. DNA test says they are not... who are the victims and who is the criminal? Yet no charges are laid and who suffers... 30% of the so-called "primary care-givers" perpetrate this fraud on thier children for the love of cash. The longer they can maintain this ruse the more likely they are to reap the rewards. What other crime towards children let alone a crime in general can you think of, where the longer you do it the more likely your chances of the law siding with you?

Quote:

Men wage battle on 'paternity fraud'
By Martin Kasindorf, USA TODAY
An acid sense of betrayal has been gnawing at Damon Adams since a DNA test showed that he is not the father of a 10-year-old girl born during his former marriage.
"Something changes in your heart," says Adams, 51, a dentist in Traverse City, Mich. "When she walks through the door, you're seeing the product of an affair."

But Michigan courts have spurned the DNA results Adams offered in his motions to stop paying $23,000 a year in child support. Now, Adams is lobbying the state Legislature for relief and joining other men in a national movement against what they call "paternity fraud."

In almost a dozen states, men have won the right to use conclusive genetic tests to end their financial obligations to children they didn't father. But women's groups and many public officials responsible for enforcing child support are battling the movement, which they say imperils children.

Most states design their family laws to protect what they call "the interests of the child." That means siding with the child's financial and emotional needs and against supposed fathers who want to avoid paying for tricycles and braces.

Taxpayers also have a big stake in child support collections, which have grown to$18 billion annually and cover 20 million children. If men who are paying child support no longer have to and authorities can't find the real fathers, welfare agencies will get the bill for family assistance.

Many men who feel deceived by a woman are in no mood to accept a legal system that doesn't recognize DNA science in such cases. "It's like they are saying, 'Let your wife cheat on you, have children by other men, divorce you, and now you have to pay for it all,' " says Air Force Master Sgt. Raymond Jackson, 43. California judges won't consider tests he says prove that the three children of his former 10-year marriage were fathered by other men.

Fraud, mistakes

There are signs of substantial fraud or mistakes in identifying fathers in child support disputes. The American Association of Blood Banks says the 300,626 paternity tests it conducted on men in 2000 ruled out nearly 30% as the father.

The legal doctrines raising barriers to DNA testing on paternity questions are formidable. In 30 states, married men face a 500-year-old legal presumption that any child born during a marriage is the husband's. The concept, based in English law, is aimed at preventing children from being branded illegitimate. Nebraska's Supreme Court ruled last week that an ex-husband who is not a child's father cannot sue the mother to recover child support payments.

The law is more flexible for men who admit to fathering a child out of wedlock but then change their minds or who are named by the mother. But they have only brief opportunities to deny paternity. Florida allows a year after a child support order, California two years after a birth.

Many unwed fathers paying child support have never admitted paternity. A 1996 federal welfare law requires a woman to name a father — no questions asked — when she applies for public assistance. A court summons can be mailed to the man's last known address. Many men don't get the notice. The result: The paychecks of 527,224 men in California, for example, are being docked under "default" judgments of paternity that can't be contested after six months.

Men who urge use of DNA cite a precedent: DNA's increasing impact in murder and rape cases.

"Think of it. I can get out of jail for murder based on DNA evidence, but I can't get out of child support payments," says Bert Riddick, 42, a computing teacher in Carson, Calif.

Riddick is paying $1,400 a month for a teenage girl born out of wedlock whom he's never met. Strapped, he and his wife are living with in-laws. Their three children, ages 3 to 11, cram into one room. He lost his driver's license for missing support payments and rides a bus 75 minutes to work.

Families are more complicated than who's biologically related to whom," says Valerie Ackerman, staff director for the National Center for Youth Law in Oakland. "If there has been a relationship between a father and child, the man can't just abdicate the responsibility that he's taken on."

Supporters of current law say the interests of the child should trump a man's concern for his wallet. "The other guy is somewhere over the hill and long gone," says Jenny Skoble, an attorney at the Harriet Buhai Center for Family Law in Los Angeles. "If it comes down to whether the only (available) father is going to be on the hook to pay money or this kid is going to be in the situation of having no father, I'd say we have to put the child first."

The link

Quote:

"I don't mind helping this child," Connors says, "but I have no choice. And that, because someone lied to me and defrauded me many years ago, is not fair."

The link

He has paid 88,000 dollars to this time. The worst crime is when the parent has never seen or even be allowed to raise thier child, yet paid. The numbers, close to 80% of all cases...

We've come a long way baby....

st_swithin · August 11, 2003, 01:53

All humans with a penis and/or testicles should NOT be allowed to have an opinion on being pregnant, since it is still physically impossible for them to do so. So yavoon, ye may merrily fvcketh offeth.

I'll be so happy to watch your reaction as I slowly torture to death someone you dearly love, with you as the sole audience member.

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 01:58

Quote:

Originally posted by st_swithin
All humans with a penis and/or testicles should NOT be allowed to have an opinion on being pregnant, since it is still physically impossible for them to do so. So yavoon, ye may merrily fvcketh offeth.

I'll be so happy to watch your reaction as I slowly torture to death someone you dearly love, with you as the sole audience member.

u just circumvented the language code on this forum.

that and ur seething hatred for men is anti climatic. I have no need to argue w/ someone who is as emotionally biased as that.

st_swithin · August 11, 2003, 02:06

Tell you what - you can have my ENTIRE childhood from the day I was born until the day after my 16th birthday, and we'll see how 'biased' you get.

Wanna buy the rights to that?!?

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 02:09

Quote:

Originally posted by st_swithin
Tell you what - you can have my ENTIRE childhood from the day I was born until the day after my 16th birthday, and we'll see how 'biased' you get.

Wanna buy the rights to that?!?

hate urself as well as all men. I'm not too big on the self loathing(I'm libertarian after all). I also fail to see what point u r trying to make besides drumming up sympathy for wutever gender induced atrocities u suffered.

st_swithin · August 11, 2003, 02:16

FVCK YOU. I've NEVER tried to gain sympathy from ANYONE, EVER. I DO know that my life has given me the unique perspective that I may call MY OWN, just as you call your opinion YOUR OWN.

But honestly, you're not worthy of knowing anything about me. You shall never know me, and you shall always pine after me. Why else would you so pointedly provoke negative responses? You can't have my hatred, so instead you get INDIFFERENCE. Bye bye!

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 03:28

Quote:

Originally posted by st_swithin
FVCK YOU. I've NEVER tried to gain sympathy from ANYONE, EVER. I DO know that my life has given me the unique perspective that I may call MY OWN, just as you call your opinion YOUR OWN.

But honestly, you're not worthy of knowing anything about me. You shall never know me, and you shall always pine after me. Why else would you so pointedly provoke negative responses? You can't have my hatred, so instead you get INDIFFERENCE. Bye bye!

that was amusing.

Az · August 11, 2003, 03:44

Quote:

Originally posted by st_swithin
All humans with a penis and/or testicles should NOT be allowed to have an opinion on being pregnant, since it is still physically impossible for them to do so. So yavoon, ye may merrily fvcketh offeth.

chill, st_swithin.

Atahualpa · August 11, 2003, 06:43

Azazel what convinces you that the anti-abortion side has the better arguments?

All they are saying is that it is murder blahblahblah. Refering to an ethical code that they **** up completely everywhere else in their lives. What is with support of underdeveloped countries? Africans dying because of war, yet weapons are sold to those countries, do you support it? Collateral damage - a necessary thing - right to life? Still agree with republican or democratic bigotry. Dont you smell some hypocrisy here?

I dont think any ethical argument is valid from such persons. Those people I cant really take serious. Besides there are always more important things to raise ones voice than in a stupid abortion discussion (where the sole argument is MURDER vs. CHOICE).
Its a really nice position anti-abortionists put themselves into. Sit in their big chair and cry murder not thinking at all the "consequences" an anti-abortion would be like. It takes two people to **** and I guess more often men have turned down women than vice-versa. But then again nobody has made an outcry yet that a man MUST live with the woman he made the child with and devote his whole life in raising this child. But of course we expect that behavior from a women whose child isnt even born.

Nah people thats where I say: NO!

ata

Atahualpa · August 11, 2003, 06:48

Or the best response was when someone suggested forcing to give birth to children and then releasing them for adoption.
It's so sad I can't even laugh about it.

Az · August 11, 2003, 07:13

This post just convinces me more, Ata. You've branded all the anti-abortionists as a bunch of rednecks/conservatives/whatever, and then proceeded to make this question a non-issue.

For example, I am for support of undeveloped countries, but not in form of giving them money, but in offering them the introduction of norms of government and society which have worked for the better for us. This would include financial aid, as well, but only if given in the form of a package deal it would work.

But let's not go there, since it would be threadjacking.

Basically, I am a utilitarian. I don't believe in rights, not even in the right for life. But, this also includes the happiness and the utility of humans, even if it is in the future. If you do think that a person has some right over their body, than I sure you wouldn't oppose the organ tranplant trade, the use of all substances, prostitution, etc. ( I am actually pro-prositution legalization, but for reasons of utility. )

So, now, we have to figure out, what's the best way to achieve utility. would abortion on demand be the utilitarian approach? I don't think so.

About the rights and obligations of men and women over children, I believe they should be equal. Obviously, the expectant mother is unable to work, so temporary disability must be granted for the period of expecting birth, and some time after that, as well. from that time, and afterwards, rights and obligations must be the same.

Am I about to be labled a fascist/conservative/religious zealot now?

Zylka · August 11, 2003, 07:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Atahualpa

All they are saying is that it is murder blahblahblah. Refering to an ethical code that they **** up completely everywhere else in their lives. What is with support of underdeveloped countries? Africans dying because of war, yet weapons are sold to those countries, do you support it? Collateral damage - a necessary thing - right to life? Still agree with republican or democratic bigotry. Dont you smell some hypocrisy here?

I dont think any ethical argument is valid from such persons.

That's really great that you've entered this debate with a pre-determined characterization/stereotype for your ENTIRE opposition. Well done generalizing the opinions of a huge portion of the population in one fell swoop!

Zylka · August 11, 2003, 07:53

Quote:

Originally posted by st_swithin
All humans with a penis and/or testicles should NOT be allowed to have an opinion on being pregnant, since it is still physically impossible for them to do so. So yavoon, ye may merrily fvcketh offeth.

I'll be so happy to watch your reaction as I slowly torture to death someone you dearly love, with you as the sole audience member.

Darling, this has nothing to do with the creep(s) who made you miserable, or the fact that (they were) male. Not all men are evil simply because of your experiences with them.

Furthermore, the anti-abortion argument does not simply stem from wanting you to suffer. It most often arises out of the genuine fear or outright belief that this is possibly (or) murder, and that nothing justifies the murder of an innocent.

It takes one to spread the legs, another to stick it in - yet apparently only the former has a voice in the possibility of murder? Why do you label all men as unworthy to this basic cry?

tinyp3nis · August 11, 2003, 07:57

I'm bored so I'll ask.

Quote:

So, now, we have to figure out, what's the best way to achieve utility. would abortion on demand be the utilitarian approach? I don't think so.

Why? Who will be unhappy? You?

Its MURDER!!!

Rasbelin · August 11, 2003, 08:28

Thank God I don't live in a country where the legislation regarding abortions has been dictated by Zylka/Azazel/Cybershy/whoever-being-against-abortions. Now if we just could get rid of those Christian Democrats...

Az · August 11, 2003, 08:32

Quote:

Why? Who will be unhappy? You?

no, the child. The fact that he misses the joys of life counts, as well. death while sleeping is painless, too, but killing people in their sleep is still unethical.

Az · August 11, 2003, 08:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka
Thank God I don't live in a country where the legislation regarding abortions has been dictated by Zylka/Azazel/Cybershy/whoever-being-against-abortions. Now if we just could get rid of those Christian Democrats...

tinyp3nis · August 11, 2003, 08:51

Quote:

The fact that he misses the joys of life counts.

You think we should make as much people on this planet it can hold and none less? There are people missing happiness if there is still room. Do you think it's wrong to of me not to have any children, I don't want to.

Rasbelin · August 11, 2003, 08:54

This planet is anyway getting overpopulated, so at some point we may anyway start seeing restrictions on who may have children and how many per woman. That's also one of the realities. So after all the whole abortion issue is quite easy solvable, if looking at it like an Ecoist. We have to limit the number of people born. Very simple fact.

Zylka · August 11, 2003, 08:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka
This planet is anyway getting overpopulated, so at some point we may anyway start seeing restrictions on who may have children and how many per woman. That's also one of the realities. So after all the whole abortion issue is quite easy solvable, if looking at it like an Ecoist. We have to limit the number of people born. Very simple fact.

LMFAO - Who's the one trying to control women, here???

Rasbelin · August 11, 2003, 09:12

I was just stating facts about how the future could very possibly look like. Not my personal opinions.

Rasbelin · August 11, 2003, 09:13

Quote:

Who's the one trying to control women, here???

That's what you are doing too, Zylka. Preventing abortions and free choice by sane people.