Indisputable Abortion FACTS: - Page 3

FrostyBoy · August 3, 2003, 21:12

I have found that some people have memories of when they were 0 (including myself).

If the mother doesn't want a baby, that doesn't give her the right to abort it. If she was raped, then the father must pay 100% of the cost of bringing up the child, but does not hold the child. If the baby is projected to have a severe mental disorder or physical disorder, there needs to be a goverment controlled organisation to take care of them.

Problem solved.

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 21:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Zylka
How convenient it is that they kill the baby while still in the womb, before evacuating. Anyone know why this is?

...because if they did it the other way around, the "undeveloped" child would STILL kick and move, struggle to breathe, and weakly protest as the instrument began to crush it's head! Do these sound like the actions of a being that is not yet "self aware"???

That's right, do the dirty work quickly and inside - so the fetus hasn't a chance to display the horror to other human beings as witness. I guess the doctors cope with their conscience a lot easier this way

Anyone care to actually address this? I didn't think any of you pro-choicers would take on such a task - so we've at least confirmed one crucial aspect of this debate.

Rex Little · August 3, 2003, 21:30

Even if we agree that a fetus is a human being with full human rights, that does not include the right to live inside another person's body without her consent. If she wants it out, that is her right. If it's medically possible to remove it alive and keep it that way, it makes sense to require that instead of killing it. But before the 5th month or so (someone with actual medical knowledge is welcome to supply the correct time) this is not possible. Given that, the only way the mother can reclaim the use of her body is an abortion, and therefore she has that right.

Ramo · August 3, 2003, 21:30

I don't particularly like watching, say, cows being slaughtered. Do you? Wanting to watch something die strikes me as an indication of sociopathic problems.

Spiffor · August 3, 2003, 21:31

I wouldn't lower myself discussing on whether an embryo is a human being at a 3 months pregnancy.

This issue has nothing to do with the real issue of abortion : whether the kid and the parents can live a good life after birth or not. It's pretty easy to oppose abortion when you have no chance of ruining your life because of an unwanted pregnancy yourselves. I'm sure that would be wholly different if you had to cope with the result of some accidental sex during the rest of your life.

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 21:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Rex Little
Even if we agree that a fetus is a human being with full human rights, that does not include the right to live inside another person's body without her consent. If she wants it out, that is her right. If it's medically possible to remove it alive and keep it that way, it makes sense to require that instead of killing it. But before the 5th month or so (someone with actual medical knowledge is welcome to supply the correct time) this is not possible. Given that, the only way the mother can reclaim the use of her body is an abortion, and therefore she has that right.

You talk as if the child is some impending PROBLEM that is at fault for burdening the mother! Was it the child's choice to be conceived? NO - SHE was the one spreading her legs!

...and don't even bother with the case of rape, as that is a minority exception meant to be tackled AFTER the vast majority issue.

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 21:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
I wouldn't lower myself discussing on whether an embryo is a human being at a 3 months pregnancy.

...because you can't prove a point on it and therefore dismiss it as "lowly"? C'mon Spiffy, you're better than that

Quote:

This issue has nothing to do with the real issue of abortion : whether the kid and the parents can live a good life after birth or not. It's pretty easy to oppose abortion when you have no chance of ruining your life because of an unwanted pregnancy yourselves.

A-D-O-P-T-I-O-N

Quote:

I'm sure that would be wholly different if you had to cope with the result of some accidental sex during the rest of your life.

Right, just as I would be equally indignant for making an "accidental" bank robbery in which I "accidentally" shoot a teller in the spine. Even if I fully and sincerely regret my actions down the road - I'd better damn well pay for the mistakes, with the rest of my life! THINK

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 21:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramo
I don't particularly like watching, say, cows being slaughtered. Do you? Wanting to watch something die strikes me as an indication of sociopathic problems.

Yeah - I agree with you. So you're admitting that you are indeed killing a human being? (remember, it's not a cow - it's a child!)

...yet if the murder is kept out of general view, hidden by a womb - it makes everything better? Hell - many institutional murder of full grown human beings which "are no longer wanted" would be ok on that logic, if you just smother them in a heavy synthetic sheet; so they can't move or seem human before shooting them in the head. That makes it all better, right?

Ramo · August 3, 2003, 21:58

Quote:

Yeah - I agree with you. So you're admitting that you are indeed killing a human being? (remember, it's not a cow - it's a child!)

...yet if the murder is kept out of general view, hidden by a womb - it makes everything better? Hell - any state murders would be ok on that logic, if you just smother them in a heavy synthetic sheet; so they can't move or seem human before shooting them in the head. That makes it all better, right?

It's not a child. It's not a human being (as per my definition of being - a sentient form of life). It's a human fetus.

I never said that hiding the killing of anything makes the killing morally better or worse. I'm simply saying that killing the fetus inside the womb is practiced for the same reason that [sane] people don't watch cows being killed for entertainment.

Mordoch · August 3, 2003, 22:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Zylka
Yeah - I agree with you. So you're admitting that you are indeed killing a human being? (remember, it's not a cow - it's a child!)
?

No. He's saying its unpleasant to watch animals being killed, and its also unpleasant to watch fetuses being aborted. I will personally aknowledge that fetuses resemble humans to a great degree at that point of their development than animals, but I would argue the difference is supercifical.

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 22:03

I'd just like to ask one question before continuing pointing out the obvious:

Do any of you pro-choicers plan to admit that a HUMAN FETUS is NOT an animal???

Ramo · August 3, 2003, 22:03

A human adult is an animal.

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 22:05

Well then, can we kill a human adult too?!

Ramo · August 3, 2003, 22:05

I never said that killing any animal is ok.

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 22:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Mordoch

No. He's saying its unpleasant to watch animals being killed, and its also unpleasant to watch fetuses being aborted. I will personally aknowledge that fetuses resemble humans to a great degree at that point of their development than animals, but I would argue the difference is supercifical.

Ok - then please define a human being, that has gained the right to not be aborted from the womb. Please, go ahead and define, on any concrete level - I'm asking this favour of you

Ramo has clearly stated that any human being is equal to an animal is equal to an unborn fetus - so if an animal can be killed for reasons of comfort, so can an unborn fetus as with an ADULT person!

How compassionate.

Ramo · August 3, 2003, 22:09

Where did I say that?

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 22:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramo
I never said that killing any animal is ok.

Then what are you saying, if anything? What do these comparisons mean, at all? Is there any specific reason you are indeed bringing them up?

Mordoch · August 3, 2003, 22:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Zylka
I'd just like to ask one question before continuing pointing out the obvious:

Do any of you pro-choicers plan to admit that a HUMAN FETUS is NOT an animal???

Other than the fact it can theoreticly be a fullgrown human, I don't see a difference.

This is actually true from a personal religious perspective as well. As a Reform Jew, during confirmation class the Rabbi at our temple advised us that according to his interpretation of passages in the Kabballa, abortions are not objectionable from a religious perspective. The reason for this is when several Rabbis are providing commentary on whether a baby being born can be killed in order to save a mothers life, one Rabbi argues that it is permissible because the baby has no soul until it draws its first breath. Since the key distinction between animals and humans is the posession of a soul, there is therefore no difference between fetuses and animals.

Ramo · August 3, 2003, 22:12

Quote:

Then what are you saying, if anything? What do these comparisons mean, at all? Is there any specific reason you are indeed bringing them up?

Watching something die is unpleasant to me. Whether it's a cow or a human fetus or a human adult. The same is probably true for most people. That's why people generally prefer to kill fetuses inside the womb. That's why people generally prefer not to watch cows being slaughtered when they buy a hamburger.

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 22:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Mordoch
the baby has no soul until it draws its first breath.

Thank you for your honest reply... I as well as others know where you stand now, and can't expect to change that view. In curiosness, where did your religious upbrining take place?

Mordoch · August 3, 2003, 22:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Zylka

Thank you for your honest reply... I as well as others know where you stand now, and can't expect to change that view. In curiosness, where did your religious upbrining take place?

In Denver, Colorado at Temple Sinai Religious School if you want the details.

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramo

Watching something die is unpleasant to me. Whether it's a cow or a human fetus or a human adult. The same is probably true for most people. That's why people generally prefer to kill fetuses inside the womb. That's why people generally prefer not to watch cows being slaughtered when they buy a hamburger.

Ok - so let me ask you, on a personal level:

-Is it ok to kill an animal for reasons of our own comfort?
-Is it ok to kill an adult human invalid, for not wanting to care for it?
-Is it ok to kill a human fetus, for not wanting to raise it?
-If yes for the previous, at what point is it NOT ok to kill a human fetus, for not wanting to raise it?

Thank you...

Geronimo · August 3, 2003, 22:22

Sava are you certain that there is a surplus of babies waiting for parents to adopt them? It seems obvious that the opposite is the case. Just look how competive the adoption process is for babies. Couples who are technically qualified still end up waiting for years and never getting to adopt. If all abortions were outlawed supply would almost certainly widely surpass demand and we'd have a lot more kids growing up in orphanages but as things stand essentially 100% of all healthy infants put up for adoption in this country are immediately snatched up by loving parents. The reason we still have kids waiting to be adopted is because these couples are often vastly less willing to take on the enormous responibility of adopting a child with health problems, or a child who became 'orphaned' later in life than infancy through circumstances.

From the standpoint of unwanted children I think it's safe to say that the numbers of healthy infants available for adoption could increase 10 fold or more before we would have anything but a baby shortage.

Ramo · August 3, 2003, 22:26

Quote:

-Is it ok to kill an animal for reasons of our own comfort?
-Is it ok to kill an adult human invalid, for not wanting to care for it?
-Is it ok to kill a human fetus, for not wanting to raise it?
-If yes for the previous, at what point is it NOT ok to kill a human fetus, for not wanting to raise it?

Thank you...

Yes (depending on the animal's intelligence and the specific circumstances), no, yes, and after the second trimester.

Oops, misread the first question.

monolith94 · August 3, 2003, 22:40

I believe in reincarnation, so for me, an abortion doesn't really matter - the soul will just go to some other place instead.

Does that sound whacked and new-agey? I hope not.

FrostyBoy · August 3, 2003, 22:51

That's kind of silly, you somehow have a soul when you first breath.

I find it typical that people would argue when is a baby a baby and not argue that killing anything for no good reason is justifiable.

monolith94 · August 3, 2003, 22:55

no, no, it always has a soul, it's just that it just goes to a new host body...

I really only think of bodies as glorified vessels, anyway.

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 22:55

Quote:

-If yes for the previous, at what point is it NOT ok to kill a human fetus, for not wanting to raise it?

Quote:

…after the second trimester.

Why? What differences define this? Please explain. Thank you

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 22:57

[quote]-Is it ok to kill an animal for reasons of our own comfort?[/qoute]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramo

Yes (depending on the animal's intelligence and the specific circumstances)s

Quote:

-Is it ok to kill a human fetus, for not wanting to raise it?
Yes

Another interesting point! So a dolphin’s life is worth more than a human fetus’ existence. Can I put that in my signature?

Zylka · August 3, 2003, 22:57

Quote:

-Is it ok to kill an animal for reasons of our own comfort?

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramo

Yes (depending on the animal's intelligence and the specific circumstances)

Quote:

-Is it ok to kill an adult human invalid, for not wanting to care for it?

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramo

No

Oh – so a human invalid with less intelligence than a cow (which is a burden to society) can not be killed. Yet cows are always killed to feed. Yet wait:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramo

A human adult is an animal

So there are two animals, one less intelligent than the other. The smarter animal is routinely killed for comfort, and you say that is ok. Furthermore, you have clearly defined that this is on a basis of intelligence and circumstance. Circumstance provided, taking care of an invalid for his/her entire life will cost society more than the benefits of the food provided by a single cow. Yet the cow is somehow intrinsically worth more on an intelligence level (the invalid can not even eat, communicate, or defecate according to proper situation). Yet the cow is ok to kill, and the invalid is not. Wait a second!

Whoops! Game over, you’ve defeated yourself. Submit any defensive adjustments you deem necessary to the people who just saw that.