Indisputable Abortion FACTS:

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
i personnelly believe in abortion like stated in the law. and i do not believe that babies become human until they get self aware. and with self aware I do not mean producing brain waves...every animal does that. but i mean seeing you as a person with memories. If you think back to your childhood...you first and oldest memory is the moment you start living. (i am not saying you dont have the same right before that time) but Before that time...you do not actively remember and live.

Yes, you do. It's just that before you learn language, the memories are stored using keys that you can't reproduce later, so you can't access the memories anymore. (This is from Discover magazine).

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Rex Little
Even if we agree that a fetus is a human being with full human rights, that does not include the right to live inside another person's body without her consent. If she wants it out, that is her right. If it's medically possible to remove it alive and keep it that way, it makes sense to require that instead of killing it. But before the 5th month or so (someone with actual medical knowledge is welcome to supply the correct time) this is not possible. Given that, the only way the mother can reclaim the use of her body is an abortion, and therefore she has that right.

I don't want another person in my house. I can't seem to get them out. I can shoot them?

Is it really the baby's fault it's in the mom? No.

[Zylka]

Even if we agree that a fetus is a human being with full human rights, that does not include the right to live inside another person's body without her consent. If she wants it out, that is her right. If it's medically possible to remove it alive and keep it that way, it makes sense to require that instead of killing it. But before the 5th month or so (someone with actual medical knowledge is welcome to supply the correct time) this is not possible. Given that, the only way the mother can reclaim the use of her body is an abortion, and therefore she has that right.

You have GOT to be kidding, right? I can respect one's right to argue that a fetus isn't yet human - but to admit that it is but then go on to justify MURDER to save NINE MONTHS of the woman who (%99 of the time) got pregnant on her own failure is absolutely batsh*t insane.

On another note, I've signed a contract with a tenant for 9 months who I am coming to hate living with after the third month. I was drunk/young/stupid when I signed the contract, so I think I have the just way out. While he/she sleeps tommorrow I will jam a metal rod through his/her spine and then throw IT out with the trash the next morning. Problem solved!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Zylka
I can respect one's right to argue that a fetus isn't yet human

Funny, I haven't seen anything in this thread so far that demonstrated you respected anyone else's opinion...

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Funny, I haven't seen anything in this thread so far that demonstrated you respected anyone else's opinion...

Well in my funny way, I do - I listen and I weigh each out before responding. After weighing this opinion out, however - I've arrived at my own that his value system is worth somewhere around 0 out of 10.

Though that's just the bigot in me - right, Mr. FreedomCakes?

[Geronimo]

Oh, one more thing for all you anti-choice social conservatives out there. Unless you are also anti-death penalty, you can shut the **** up on any "right to life". You obviously don't take seriously any so-called "right to life" if you are willing to execute people. This applies doubly to Catholics - since the Church has also called for the abolition of the death penalty.

Nice post Templar, but I sure hope you will agree that it's just as absurd to label people 'anti-choice' who often times turn out to be far more pro choice than the general public when it comes to issues outside the scope of reproductive rights. 'right to life', 'ant-choice', 'pro-life' and all the related terms are *really* bad labels for the involved ideological camps. They are *far* too general. People should stick to 'pro abortion rights' or 'anti abortion rights' as the labels in such abortion centered discussions.

[MrBaggins]

I think the title is inappropriate... they are being disputed, thus are not indisputable. That, and they don't raise to the level of being a fact.

[Spiffor]

Actually, my greatest pride in life is to have convinced a female friend of mine to abort.

Here's the story:
She used to have serious psychological problems regarding fecundation, and really, really wanted a child no matter the consequences. With her first boyfriend, she became pregnant once (at 18 or so) without agreement of the boyfriend. Since he was not going to marry her anytime soon, and since a continued pregnancy would mean for them to break up, she finally gave in and aborted. It was a trauma and she swore never to abort again.

At 20, she had a real dispute with the (same) boyfriend, and they broke up for 4 months. Completely depressive, she was sheltered by another (virgin) guy, with whom she had unprotected sex repeatedly. At last she could have the child she longed for. She refused to abort, and this girl and 'passerby' broke up in terrible circumstances. A beautiful daughter was born.
As of today, the 'passerby' refuses to think about his now born daughter because of the psychological shock it implies. It is likely the daughter will never meet her father. This guy is likely going to deny love for his daughter for the rest of her life (I had two years to notice this).

Even more depressive, the pregnant mother now comes back with the old boyfriend who had a rough time during these 4 months of separation as well. The boyfriend gets involved with pregnancy, and acts as a wonderful father. Sadly, last December, he had to leave the country for 6 months. The mother once again entered a period of unstability and anguish. That's about the time I become some kind of advidor to her.

So far, she has been a perfect and loving mother towards her daughter. She spent all her energy in raising her girl and in studying. Fortunately, she didn't have to worry too much about things like money or sentimental stability. But now she has to deal with all these problems alone.

She quickly turns to other men, and has sex with them. They're well aware of her habit of making babies, and they use condoms. OTOH, because of her unability to ponder pregnancy rationally (a family trait - they're all messed like that since her great-grandmother), she doesn't take the pill. Even when she tries, she forgets way too often.

She quickly finds another guy, an old friend of mine. Like the previous "passerby", he shelters her, he helps her, and he's a virgin. Their relation is mostly sexual, at least at the beginning. They always have sex with condoms. However, one night, there was some circumstance leading to have sex without. Obviously, she becomes pregnant and the morning-after pill has no effect.

So the situation at this point is:
- this girl spends her whole energy raising her 7 months-old baby and studying. She sleeps fewer than 6 hours a night, 7/7.
- this girl is in a sentimental wreckage. She longs for her old boyfriend as well as for the 'passerby' from two year ago, while ****ging another (manipulable because geeky and previously virgin) guy. She also ****s random men from time to time.
That doesn't require any energy: she revolves in a geeky circle of friends, and her openness attracted men to her, not the other way around.
- This girl is in serious financial trouble. She has an overpriced flat, but she cannot move in another cheaper suburbian town, because she'd lose her precious priority at the kindergarten. She has no time to look for practical solutions.
- This girl is exhausted and regularily cries on my shoulder. At that point, she barely eats to be able to feed her kid, because of money shortage.
- This girl is pregnant.

The few times I've slept at her home (nothing sexual ever happened between us), I could have seen the effort it requires to raise a kid when you're alone. In the many discussions I've had with her, I knew she was completely fecked up about how to deal with her daughter's father.

There was no way for me to allow her to throw her life, the life of her daughter, the life of the upcoming kid, and the life of her lover down the gutter.
After a long explanation of how dire was her situation (I merely repeated what she had told me for months), she came to understand she would never be able to give the love and attention to both kids. She understood she was going to destroy her lover the same way she destroyed the 'passerby'. She understood she was going to destroy herself, and more importantly, she understood she was going to destroy her kid(s).

She cried more than I have ever seen her cry. She aborted.

Since then, 6 months later, her life has now stabilized. She is finally able to be rational with the contraceptive pill. She and her first boyfriend definitely broke up while he was abroad, and he came back with a new girlfriend. This event made her much less messy about her feelings towards him.
Her relationship with the lover of that time has somehow stabilized (stability is what she needed most), and she has now a monogamous relationship with him. Besides, her studies are going correctly, and she wants to continue studying next year.
The baby is continuing to grow, and gets all the love she needs, especially since the lover helps taking care of her 1-2 days a week.
There are sure a few dark spots (like the continued **** between the kid's mother and father), but many of her problems have now been solved, because her burden was alleviated.

I am very glad this girl can now be successful in her studies, and can hope for a stable and income-rich career. I am very glad the bills can now be payed, and that everyone in the house can now eat correctly. I am very glad the kid wasn't taken away by social services because of the mother's unability to raise her. I am very glad her lover hasn't been destroyed than the previous 'passerby'.

I am very glad she aborted.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Zylka
Well in my funny way, I do - I listen and I weigh each out before responding. After weighing this opinion out, however - I've arrived at my own that his value system is worth somewhere around 0 out of 10.

Though that's just the bigot in me - right, Mr. FreedomCakes?

You've responded to all contrary opinions to yours with vitriol, smarmy smugness and sarcasm. That's not respectful in the least. Don't pay lip service to respecting the opinions of others when your actions clearly demonstrate otherwise.

I have no idea if it has to do with you being a bigot, Honeybuns, but I'd guess it has more to do with you being an immature jerk. Fair enough?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Geronimo
'right to life', 'ant-choice', 'pro-life' and all the related terms are *really* bad labels for the involved ideological camps. They are *far* too general. People should stick to 'pro abortion rights' or 'anti abortion rights' as the labels in such abortion centered discussions.

This is true and sensible Geronimo. But the issue is highly emotional, as you can see in this very thread. People will use these labels (and I belong to these people ) to show their agenda, or the alleged position of the other camp. It's political, and that's why it'll continue to be used.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Even if we agree that a fetus is a human being with full human rights, that does not include the right to live inside another person's body without her consent. If she wants it out, that is her right. If it's medically possible to remove it alive and keep it that way, it makes sense to require that instead of killing it. But before the 5th month or so (someone with actual medical knowledge is welcome to supply the correct time) this is not possible. Given that, the only way the mother can reclaim the use of her body is an abortion, and therefore she has that right.

--

Spiffor: Was that post just a REAAALY long troll to the pro-choicers .

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


You've responded to all contrary opinions to yours with vitriol, smarmy smugness and sarcasm. That's not respectful in the least. Don't pay lip service to respecting the opinions of others when your actions clearly demonstrate otherwise.

I have no idea if it has to do with you being a bigot, Honeybuns, but I'd guess it has more to do with you being an immature jerk. Fair enough?

Not at all, IMBO *added a bigot in there!*

BY EXPERIENCE - YOU ARE HEREBY CHAMPION OF THE PROGRESSIVE FUTURE, I BOW TO YOUR LACK OF SMARMY RETORT!

BZ

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Spiffor: Was that post just a REAAALY long troll to the pro-choicers .

Huh ? This is not a troll. This is a sad and true story of a messed up mother who'd have plunged 4 lives into suffering if she hadn't aborted.

When I say I'm overly proud of having her abort, that's because I think I saved 4 lives from a hideous fate.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Not you too! Does my abstract comparison not hold weight in your legal opinion?

...I've signed a contract with a tenant for 9 months who I am coming to hate living with after the third month. I was drunk/young/stupid when I signed the contract, so I think I have the just way out. While he/she sleeps tommorrow I will jam a metal rod through his/her spine and then throw IT out with the trash the next morning. Problem solved!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Huh ? This is not a troll.

When I say I'm overly proud of having her abort

---

I've signed a contract with a tenant for 9 months

Before 'viability' (when the fetus can live outside of the womb either by machine or on its own), it is not a person.

Secondly, you never made a contract with the fetus. It decided to live within you without express approval. You approved the sex, but that doesn't mean that you signed a contract with the baby that would begin to take up residence. To take your tenant example, just because you threw a WILD party, doesn't mean you consent to having partygoers stay the week.

[Zylka]

You sure as hell do consent to the growth of life inside of you when you allow semen into your body and onwards to inseminating a present egg. Whether or not the woman is "knowledgeable" of this viability beforehand is about as grey area as whether or not that nurse's aid was "knowledgeable" that leaving a crippled bleeding man on the hood of her car for several days would kill him. C'mon, Immy!

[Imran Siddiqui]

You sure as hell do consent to the growth of life inside of you when you allow semen into your body

No you don't. Consent for one thing isn't the same as consent for all that comes after it, even if that which comes afterwards is foreseeable.

Like my example, consent to throw a party does not lead to consenting to have drunk partygoers hang out at your place for a week.

As for the nurse, there was no 'consent' involved there at all. After all, the guy did not ask to lay on the woman's hood. Her act led to a duty to call for help because she injured an pedestrian.

In contrast, in an abortion setting, there is no duty to allow your body to be used as an incubator. You are simply removing the offending tenant. If it can't survive outside, then tough. It did not have permission to be there anyway.

[Zylka]

So you're for abortions up until the fetus leaves the womb - by decision of the mother's consent?

[Spiffor]

Imran, you should read the story. I wrote the whole thing down for people to understand why I'm proud. It is not a troll, but my sincerest feeling.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Imran, you should read the story. I wrote the whole thing down for people to understand why I'm proud. It is not a troll, but my sincerest feeling.

so ur covering up her mistakes by slaughtering her children...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by yavoon
so ur covering up her mistakes by slaughtering her children...

Do you have any idea of what would have become of both children if she gave birth a second time. I actually didn't think about her future at first, because she has looked for trouble, and should deserve some punishment. I was mostly looking for [b]the kid(/b](s)' future. Hadn't she aborted, their future was grim. Bigtime.

I too happen to think the kids are innocent in this whole story. Should they suffer from their mother's mistakes during their whole lives ? Should they be punished for their mother's mistakes ? I don't think so.
The born daughter is likely never to know her father (or even worse, she might meet a hateful father later in her life), and this is punishment already. Did you want to inflict more punishment to this baby, with malnutrition, mother's bitterness and the like ? I sure didn't.


Yes, the world would be all nice'n clean if children didn't suffer from the consequences of their parents' mistakes. However, the world is not a faerie tale. From the dawn of time, there have always been children who had to suffer from misfit parents, whether they were alcoholic, bitter, too poor to feed them etc. Your claim for parents to "take responsibility" is morally all good, but it is sadly not realistic.
However, with abortion, there are now two ways to deal with the problem of parents unable to raise children:
- the old way. Give birth to the children, have them live a terrible childhood (with all the consequences it could have on their whole life, if the kid ever survives to childhood), and most likely let them repeat the same mistakes.
- the new way. Avoid to give birth, avoid the baby to live a life of suffering.

I like the new way best.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So you're for abortions up until the fetus leaves the womb - by decision of the mother's consent?

I'm for abortion until the fetus/child can live outside the womb. At that point, then you take the child out and let it live. Before that point, you can't have the child live, so you take it out and it dies.

Imran, you should read the story. I wrote the whole thing down for people to understand why I'm proud. It is not a troll, but my sincerest feeling.

Since it's so long, you think anyone will read it?

Anyway, if you want my opinion, it isn't anything to be too proud about. She was irresponsible, and even if you did the right thing in the end, it ain't a badge of courage.

[Zylka]

When is the average age for a fetus able to survive outside of the womb, exactly? I've heard 5 months here, but that doesn't seem right, at all

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ask a doctor . I believe it is closer to 6 months, but I'm not sure.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
it ain't a badge of courage.

Indeed, it's a badge of doing the right thing. I'd have been exactly as proud if I saved a baby from drowning in a swimming pool: definitely not something difficult or brave. But the right thing to do.

(BTW, it wasn't as easy as it looks: she was very hostile to abortion at the beginning, since she pledged never to abort again 3 years prior. Her lover at that time was too affected to have the courage to go through her resistance, and to make her cry. Maybe in the end he'd have convinced her anyway before the time limit, but that's very far from being sure, since he was fragile at the time, and especially uncomfortable with this pregnancy)

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Since it's so long, you think anyone will read it?

I hope some people will read this story, and will understand that abortion can be a great thing, because it can prevent much forseeable misery.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Ask a doctor . I believe it is closer to 6 months, but I'm not sure.

Right. If so - ANY woman who would decide not to go the extra THREE months plus labour, and instead risk the child severe developmental problems via early evacuation...

THAT woman would be deserving of "being sent to Saudi Arabia". I also have a very special name for someone like that, that I have decided not to use for fear of being labeled a misogynist. I think it's "c*ntrag", actually (whoops)

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Do you have any idea of what would have become of both children if she gave birth a second time. I actually didn't think about her future at first, because she has looked for trouble, and should deserve some punishment. I was mostly looking for [b]the kid(/b](s)' future. Hadn't she aborted, their future was grim. Bigtime.

I too happen to think the kids are innocent in this whole story. Should they suffer from their mother's mistakes during their whole lives ? Should they be punished for their mother's mistakes ? I don't think so.
The born daughter is likely never to know her father (or even worse, she might meet a hateful father later in her life), and this is punishment already. Did you want to inflict more punishment to this baby, with malnutrition, mother's bitterness and the like ? I sure didn't.


Yes, the world would be all nice'n clean if children didn't suffer from the consequences of their parents' mistakes. However, the world is not a faerie tale. From the dawn of time, there have always been children who had to suffer from misfit parents, whether they were alcoholic, bitter, too poor to feed them etc. Your claim for parents to "take responsibility" is morally all good, but it is sadly not realistic.
However, with abortion, there are now two ways to deal with the problem of parents unable to raise children:
- the old way. Give birth to the children, have them live a terrible childhood (with all the consequences it could have on their whole life, if the kid ever survives to childhood), and most likely let them repeat the same mistakes.
- the new way. Avoid to give birth, avoid the baby to live a life of suffering.

I like the new way best.

so u decided to play god? u foresaw a future that YOU wouldn't want to live in. and then decided that instead of letting the child live u would simply kill it. isnt that a lil beyond a persons scope?

[Zylka]

You forget, Yavoon. Spiff is unwilling to commit to whether or not this is murder. That's a lowly topic for the rest of us mortals

[yavoon]

to lay it out simply. there are two issues at stake. one, u can reliably foresee the future. and two, u have the moral authority to decide for the child that being killed in the womb is preferable to that future.