Indisputable Abortion FACTS: - Page 9

Spiffor · August 5, 2003, 03:14

That's what happens when you sleep 4 hours in the past 48h. G'night, and I hope it was fun

Zylka · August 5, 2003, 03:16

*Thread collapses*

Atahualpa · August 5, 2003, 03:30

Quote:

Originally posted by yavoon

abortion is a life saver. wow the diction of a giant.

u can certainly agree w/ the law. but u have to be able to support ur case out of more than convenience. u have to convince ppl that even if that weren't the law that would be the right way to go.

"Convincing" someone is very difficult if they just ignore what I said
Besides I am no freakin' missionary. Convince yourself!

ata

st_swithin · August 5, 2003, 03:38

I just realised why I never go out in public - you're held accountable for everything you do or say, whether or NOT you think anyone's actually paying attention.

Now I REALLY hate you.

Oh well, the moment's gone.

We're losing some GORGEOUS light, here, sweetheart!

See ya on the other side of the sky.

-sf, by which I mean the clever one.

yavoon · August 5, 2003, 04:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Atahualpa

"Convincing" someone is very difficult if they just ignore what I said
Besides I am no freakin' missionary. Convince yourself!

ata

k, just wanted to point out that the convenience of the law is not a good place to hide behind in a debate.

Atahualpa · August 5, 2003, 04:09

st_swithin would you stop posting nonsense and lend your hand to MrOgre who would surely need someone stripping of all the comments

Spiffor: about the story, well fine. Hmm I wont make up an opinion because if I dont know all the details myself I dont want to judge...

Nevertheless I think your feelings of pride are completely wrong here. Remember that, you are argumenting in a gray zone. There is no wrong or right here, or it is so close together its almost mixed. If you favor one descision over the other you just followed your opinion (belief) and thats quite an easy thing to do, in my eyes nothing to be "proud" of.

From what you have wrote I think you have acted wrong in that you have suggested a certain way to go. I think everyone here has a valid point. Zylka has, you have and when you are alone in a discussion with a woman I think you would have to bring all these points into a discussion, but not to confuse the woman, instead stabilize her so that she can make a choice as a rational fully aware human and you'd have to live with whatever her choice was.
Of course bringing in all these points doesnt sound like "you know its murder do you?". Its more like talking with her what it would be for her when the fetus gets "killed", so that she gets aware of that situation. If she cant accept the fact that the fetus gets "killed" she should not go for abortion. (killed in quotes as I dont want to decide here if its a own living being or just part of the mothers body; I believe the second, but I am not the ultimate opinion)

But well dont take me too serious, apart from what you wrote I know nothing about the story or the persons and therefore my position is a bit whacky to throw in arguments.

ata

Atahualpa · August 5, 2003, 04:11

Quote:

Originally posted by yavoon

k, just wanted to point out that the convenience of the law is not a good place to hide behind in a debate.

ok

but thats what spiffor said, my point was that I am satisfied with the law as it is and therefore would not change it. Of course thats just an opinion....

ata

yavoon · August 5, 2003, 04:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Atahualpa

ok

but thats what spiffor said, my point was that I am satisfied with the law as it is and therefore would not change it. Of course thats just an opinion....

ata

well then I would point that why you are satisfied is whats important. or less oddly phrased. ur reasoning.

Rasbelin · August 5, 2003, 05:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack_www

Many childless couples that would want to have a baby.

Good golly... You see, the couples that can't get children in a normal sexual intercouse usually choose to try expensive clinical methods, as they selfishly want to have a baby of their own, not an adopted one. Is that right then? Well, I can't say that, but at least think about how many children go unadopted already because of that. Now you would multiple that number.

And yes, I agree with Sava that would then have even 10 times more (or so) of unwanted babies waiting for adoption.

Rasbelin · August 5, 2003, 05:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Zylka

A human fetus is NOT AN ANIMAL.

W00t! Someone must have changed the evolution...

/me goes off to read Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.

Rasbelin · August 5, 2003, 05:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Rex Little
Even if we agree that a fetus is a human being with full human rights, that does not include the right to live inside another person's body without her consent. If she wants it out, that is her right. If it's medically possible to remove it alive and keep it that way, it makes sense to require that instead of killing it. But before the 5th month or so (someone with actual medical knowledge is welcome to supply the correct time) this is not possible. Given that, the only way the mother can reclaim the use of her body is an abortion, and therefore she has that right.

Exactly.

You hit on the nail, Rex Little. Just the same opinion as I have.

Jack the Bodiless · August 5, 2003, 06:06

Quote:

Pro-Choicer: Yet even if she took measures to avoid the pregnancy - it still happens! Think rape or the ever brilliant and consistent "pulling out" contraception method!

Me: Unfortunately - these things do happen, but are in minority case. I would well tackle them before coming to complete terms, only when the majority is dealt with. So from now on, this point is seen as a smokescreen to the major issue, ok?

I am still waiting for some sort of evidence that the majority of abortions are a form of primary contraception for women who never intended to get pregnant but never even attempted to use either a normal contraceptive or a morning-after pill.

I find it incredible that women would rather have an abortion than swallow a pill. And I find it incredible that some men (and why is it always men?) actually believe that most women who have abortions feel this way.

yavoon · August 5, 2003, 06:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka

Good golly... You see, the couples that can't get children in a normal sexual intercouse usually choose to try expensive clinical methods, as they selfishly want to have a baby of their own, not an adopted one. Is that right then? Well, I can't say that, but at least think about how many children go unadopted already because of that. Now you would multiple that number.

And yes, I agree with Sava that would then have even 10 times more (or so) of unwanted babies waiting for adoption.

so to avoid the inconvenience of unwanted children u would rather just terminate them.

Rasbelin · August 5, 2003, 06:16

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...37#post2236137

Very good post, IMO, Spiffor.

Makes you think about the fact that such unwanted pregnancies could have actually been avoided all together in the first place. At least myself find it more efficient that way and at least care that much about my partner, so it's not an issue for me, but many men seem to think that only women should have to care about contraception.

Well, gets us back to the recent thread about sex education - i.e. something what is globally needed and should be improved. Especially in the "Third World" countries.

Rasbelin · August 5, 2003, 06:19

Quote:

so to avoid the inconvenience of unwanted children u would rather just terminate them.

You mean that I would become a craddle snatcher and suffocate all "unwanted" children?

And please use more well written English in order to make your message abit more clear.

Zylka · August 5, 2003, 06:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka

W00t! Someone must have changed the evolution...

* Asuka goes off to read Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.

You might want to look into a rather all inclusive concept known as "sprituality", in regards to what I said - smartass

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka

I agree with Sava

That says plenty. Next!

Zylka · August 5, 2003, 06:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka

And please use more well written English in order to make your message abit more clear.

Oh my. I guess we're not done here, then.

Rasbelin · August 5, 2003, 06:53

Still up and kicking, Zylka? I would have thought Prozac or Zyprexa would have taken care of you... Ack, life can be hard.

Zylka · August 5, 2003, 07:05

Why would you say something like that? Is it your inability to respond to or defend your ironically atrocious grammar - or do you honestly hold people who take medications of lower esteem?

Zylka · August 5, 2003, 07:08

Here it is again, in case you're still confused:

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka

And please use more well written English in order to make your message abit more clear.

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka

And please use more well written English in order to make your message abit more clear.

That's almost signature material, friend! Please don't change one bit...

Rasbelin · August 5, 2003, 07:10

No, but people who have drugged themselves aren't always on the clear side with all things going on. However I can't of course be sure you are drugged *right now*, but you can make a such assumption.

Plus the grammar comment was targeted to yavoon, not you. Sorry to disappoint you by not giving you more reasons to argue.

Rasbelin · August 5, 2003, 07:12

@ post http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...12#post2239612

Zylka, I suggest staying on-topic and not making such a big fuss about one sentence.

Zylka · August 5, 2003, 07:15

Ok, that's fair. Yet in case you missed it, I'll again point out the glaring defeat you brought upon yourself:

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka

And please use more well written English in order to make your message abit more clear.

Would you like it from another angle - or does the incompetent structure and irony make even you laugh, yet?

Rasbelin · August 5, 2003, 07:19

Yes, I did get the point. You don't have to fill my screen with those damn letters.

Zylka · August 5, 2003, 07:21

Well then don't dismiss someone as being drugged beyond ability after they've responded to your smart ass methods with a similar approach. Sorry you have to go through being intellectually beaten up by a manic/depressive on a gaming site - it happens to even the best of us!

Spiffor · August 5, 2003, 07:54

Of course, Z, you didn't even take notice of Asuka's points. It's much better to argue on one mere sentence irrelevant to the debate.

But I guess that's cool for you if you think you can wan arguments this way. This reminds me of Berzerker, who convinces himself he wins about every argument he takes on Poly

Zylka · August 5, 2003, 08:11

Quote:

But I guess that's cool for you if you think you can wan arguments this way. This reminds me of Berzerker, who convinces himself he wins about every argument he takes on Poly

I don't feel the need to wan arguments when my opponent hasn't the ability to even put them forth coherently

Spiffor · August 5, 2003, 08:26

@ pro choicers:

Have you noticed that every "debate" between us and the backwards camp has the same ring to it:

1. The only big argument of theirs is that "abortion is murder". No matter what, any anti-choicer will always want to approach abortion from the foetus (happy now Z?) perspective. The only references to mothers are talking about 'responsability of their actions'. They are also extremely dismissive as to what will happen to the unwanted child after birth, as well as to its other innocent family members.

There is a reason for that. Abortion objectively alleviates the suffering that everybody involved in an unwanted pregnancy will experience: mother, father, siblings, and the unwanted kid itself, you name it...

You'll notice there was only one anti-choicer in this thread (CyberShy) who did argue over the benefits abortion brings to people. You'll also notice his only argument on the matter was "unwanted children will continued to be loved". He did not adress the major economic and social impact an unwanted kid can have on your life and others. He dismissed parents badly raising their unwanted children as "0,5%".
Some people even dismissed the whole economic distress which an unwanted pregnancy can create as "inconvenience" (Yavoon). You'll also notice nearly no anti-choicer seems to think about the unwanted kid's future and suffering. Some way to "think of the children"

In other threads, someone gives a great deal of importance to the suffering of women. Or rather one kind of women's suffering: the post abortion psychologic trauma (Obiwan).

This leads me to believe the anti-choice crowd is hypocritically using human suffering as an ideological tool when needed, and dismisses or overlooks it when it goes against their little hoiler-than-thou values.

Debates about post-birth suffering are avoided by the anti-choice crowd because IT DESTROYS THEIR WHOLE ARGUMENT. That's why they'll stick with saying "abortion is murder".

2. We are stupid enough to enter their little games. They successfully shift the focus from what abortion is really about (preventing whole lifes of being ruined) to their pet issue, that is whether destroying foetuses is murder or not.

And in these kind of arguments, we sure look silly. Soem will argue foetuses aren't human at all, some will argue foetuses aren't living, some will argue foetuses are expandable etc.
Basically, taking part into these "debate" can only make us look like stupid people who can't understand what a foetus is, or like heartless baby killers.
Worse, taking part into this debate further puts the focus on embryoes, and even further away from born people.
It can only desserve our cause, because our cause is right only when you think of the real and constatable suffering abortion could have prevented. It can not be right if you forget why this difficult and painful practice has been introduced.

Mates, let's change the focus from the embryo to born people now ! Let's turn this sorry troll-thread into a thread which discusses the real issues behind abortion !

Spiffor · August 5, 2003, 08:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Atahualpa
From what you have wrote I think you have acted wrong in that you have suggested a certain way to go. I think everyone here has a valid point. I think you would have to bring all these points into a discussion, but not to confuse the woman, instead stabilize her so that she can make a choice as a rational fully aware human and you'd have to live with whatever her choice was.

Well, I was ome kind of advisor for a few months at that time, and my main advice so far had been consistently for her to take the pill. However, her problem was that she was unable to have a rational understanding of her fecundity - a trait she has taken from her mother, grandmother and great-grandmother who were equally fecked up and who gave young birth to plethora of fatherless kids.
That's why she didn't manage to take the pill even when she tried to. That's why she wasn't able to walk in the drug-dealer's shop to ask for a morning-over pill.
She knew very well a second baby would turn her really difficult situation into an outright impossible one. Heck, to convince her to abort, I merely had to repeat what she had told me over the months. She knew rationality dictated her to abort. She just wasn't able to listen to rationality.

While I still feel good for having done the right thing, I still feel sad when I'm thinking about her tears, when she understood that I was right (she knew it all along, I was saying her arguments) and that she'd have to kill once again her foetus. I'd have prefereed contraception method by far, cause abortion is most often a terrible yet necessary remedy

At least, she has learned at last. She now takes the pill, and seems to be much less fecked up about pregnancy (this may come back in the future though, as it happened to her mother). I sure prefer it that way

Rasbelin · August 5, 2003, 09:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
Mates, let's change the focus from the embryo to born people now ! Let's turn this sorry troll-thread into a thread which discusses the real issues behind abortion !

Are you trying to make us look like a group of feminists that take to the barricades and chant "GIRL POWER!"?