Yang surrenders for no apparent reason

[AMD4EVER]

New game I started yesterday on transend. Decided to go Morgan for the challenge of playing probably the weakest faction in the game and put on max fungus.

I started out at the far south of the map but was on a very large continent consuming much of the center of the world. I discovered Yang to my North about 20 years into the game. He quickly declare vendetta against me so I figured the smartest thing for me to do would be to put the rover I discovered them with into a key choke point and upgrade its defense to synthmetal. That chokepoint was on rocks and right next to one of Yangs bases.

Yang refused to attack my rover throughout this entire war for some reason but did find another longerway around to get to my bases. He kept attacking the base that I had at the center of The Ruins. No big deal, I just defended that base with the latest technology.

After launching my ships about 150 years in, Yang is still hacking away at that Ruin base but has accomplished nothing except knocking over 2 of the monoliths. I take a look around our continent which is empty except for us. Yang could have held all the land to the North but he refused to focus on anything except me. Deirde and Santiago had become the two most powerful factions followed closely by myself and Lal had become world leader. My rover was still holding its ground at the choke point and it was supped up with a chaos gun and silk steel.

Finally about 200 years in Yang contacted me about a blood truce. At this time I was just beginning to get annoyed with Yang and started building some advanced rovers to go fight against him. They hadn't even been finished when he made this proposal to me. His factions power was about 1/4 of my power but neither of us had taken a single base in this whole 200 year war. So I refuse the blood truce and to my shock and surprise the next thing he does is offer to surrender. I've never been able to get the Hive to surrender easily in the first place so seeing this occur was an absolute shock to me. It was an extremely strange event that I cannot explain.

Anyways in another strange event afterwards, with most of his techs at 25% or less, he somehow managed to start studying Orbital Spaceflight and was the first faction to get this technology which he quickly handed over to me, and then he also managed to study Doctrine: Air Power before anyone else. I couldn't figure this one out either but since he was handing all his techs over to me I didn't mind.

[CEO Aaron]

Weakest faction in the game? Bleah. Utter ignorance. Have a look at some of Hendrik or Ogie's posts on Morgan's strategy, and you'll see just how mighty all that energy is. For weakest faction in the game, I give you the industry-crippled duo: Santiago or Svensgaard.

Anyway, this looks like a textbook case of how to get the mono-maniacal AI to cripple itself on a well-defended point. When the AI faction goes into Vendetta mode, it simply cranks out attack units to the exclusion of all else, and will fling them at you willy-nilly until one of you is dead. Once you had sufficiently powerful units, the AI obedient to it's programming counted your units and it's bases and decided it had no chance, and summarily gave up. Not too suprising, since it probably hadn't planted a base since you first plopped that rover in his backyard.

[AMD4EVER]

I've never had a problem winning with any faction except Morgan. Perhaps it is just my strategy that is weak when I use Morgan although my strategy often is to just sit back and grow instead of going to war.

Santiago can get Elites easily and once they have those running around, all other factions quickly crumble in front of a wave of land and air power. Santiago I rate as one of the most powerful factions although there is no debating that the University is by far the most threatening. A powerful technological nation is always going to defeat a powerful army nation IMO. The problem with Morgan though is that they can get technology but only while running FM and Research and of course this makes it difficult to have any army at all. Morgan is the only faction that has to decide whether to go after technology or military while all other factions can do both at once.

However, I never thought that my 9 bases in the current game I'm playing would stand up against 30+ Spartan bases when it came to technology and faction dominance. Currently our two factions are the most powerful, but my technology is expanding every 5 years while Spartan tech is every 21 years. In the end I doubt the powerful Spartans will pose a threat to me although the Gaians and their technology will pose a threat.

[Gufnork]

I disagree with Svensgaard being weak. They're hard to play, though. Santiago is hardly weak either. She kicks behind. So does her faction. It's hard to win when playing it though (I know that was pointless, but I refuse to call Spartans weak!). It's easy enough to get elite troops without their morale bonus, all that does is give them leeway in SE choices. No wealth and -1 industry means a crap start, however. I can't see how the comp can do so well with them compared to other factions.

As for Morgan, probes are your friends. Switch to wealth and buy any army they throw at you. FM too and you're unstoppable. Use your starting cash wisely to survive in the beginning though, that's when you're weak.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by AMD4EVER
The problem with Morgan though is that they can get technology but only while running FM and Research and of course this makes it difficult to have any army at all. Morgan is the only faction that has to decide whether to go after technology or military while all other factions can do both at once.

Morgan can get crazy energy while running Fundy/Green/Wealth, and still build very tough military units, provided you've built creches in every base. The 20% research penalty is more than compensated for by the extra energy per square, not to mention the commerce value of any submissive factions you've crushed underfoot with your clean armed forces.

You can also go on the offensive using Free Market quite easily, once you've built the requisite infrastructure. A base or two with a punishment sphere will handily take care of homing all your objectionalbe military units, or if that doesn't suit your taste, there's always Ascetic Virtues and Brood pits.

Originally posted by Gufnork
Santiago is hardly weak either. She kicks behind. So does her faction. It's hard to win when playing it though.

Here's my arguments for Santiago as the weakest faction, you can accept them or refute them as you desire:

1) Industry. This is really the biggest, IMO, but Santiago has an innate penalty to industry, meaning she loses critical turn-advantage in the early game, usually lagging 1-2 turns behind in early builds of colony pods and formers. As the game progresses, those lost turns stack up as a cumulative loss of turn-advantage takes effect. As any of the vets here can tell you, turn-advantage is most critical early on, and you can usually tell who's going to be in charge during the midgame by discovering who plants their first expansion bases in the early game.

2) Morale. You said it yourself, with the right SE choices and/or facilites, it's not too hard for anyone to start fielding elite troops, so all her innate morale bonus gives is a bit more flexibility. Also, the only really useful aspect of high morale is the extra square of movement elite units enjoy, and smart play and above all higher production can easily overwhelm that advantage.

3) Free prototypes? Please. An ability that mimics a fairly useless midgame facility, especially one you only ever need to build one or two of, is hardly anything to write home about.

4) Police. Okay, now we're getting somewhere, having a high police rating can seriously help with drones, allowing you to forego building expensive, but to make best use of this you need to run a police state, and if your troops are at home keeping rioters out of the streets, they can hardly be out in the field crushing your enemies. Besides, what's the point of quelling drones if your craptastic efficiency makes more of them for you, and keeps your energy income low to boot?

Originally posted by Gufnork
Use your starting cash wisely to survive in the beginning though, that's when you're weak.

Read this: http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_buildprimer.shtml

[Gufnork]

Hmm... I thought I was completly obvious in that I thought Spartans is the faction that has the worst odds of winning. I will just not call a Spartan weak. You said exactly what I said in other words.

As for that link, I disagree that Morgan shines in the beginning. Any faction close to Morgan can just gobble him up, RTs or no RTs. They can't support an early army. Plus, their lack of planned and early FM means their RTs puts them at best on par with other factions expansionwise. And their extra income goes to the RTs. If Morgan is left alone early, however, they can whoop some arse.

[Rubin]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
3) Free prototypes? Please. An ability that mimics a fairly useless midgame facility, especially one you only ever need to build one or two of, is hardly anything to write home about.

I find Skunkworks very useable at bases where I need the most flexibility. In addition to free prototyping you are also able to switch production at any time without the retool penalty - provided the switch is kept within the category.

The Spartans cannot build Skunkworks (well, I've never managed to build these with the Spartans). And are thus penalized even further by a possible lack of flexibility.

[AMD4EVER]

Rubin, Spartans get free Skunkworks at all their bases


Anyways, I maintain that Morgan is the worst. During the game that I mentioned in this post, I finally got to the end of the game and I was vastly superior in technology and energy. When the Gaians and Spartans turned on me, it took only three planet busters to bring me to my knees. I couldn't get any momentum behind me after that point. The only thing that saved me was my technological lead. I went into a flat sprint towards trancendance and used all my energy to achieve it before anyone else. A few more turns and I was doomed.

I just find it very difficult to play Morgan and actually try to win decisively. My wins with Morgan always result in me fighting off my foes and taking economic or trancendance victories just moments before Morgan Industries falls. I'll take the Spartans any day over the Morgans.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Rubin
In addition to free prototyping you are also able to switch production at any time without the retool penalty - provided the switch is kept within the category.

Are you certain of this one? I've never heard of or noticed that feature before, though I'll admit that I've rarely built many if any Skunkworks, since I wanted more flexability in where I would produce my prototypes.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by AMD4EVER
Rubin, Spartans get free Skunkworks at all their bases


Anyways, I maintain that Morgan is the worst. During the game that I mentioned in this post, I finally got to the end of the game and I was vastly superior in technology and energy. When the Gaians and Spartans turned on me, it took only three planet busters to bring me to my knees. I couldn't get any momentum behind me after that point. The only thing that saved me was my technological lead. I went into a flat sprint towards trancendance and used all my energy to achieve it before anyone else. A few more turns and I was doomed.

I just find it very difficult to play Morgan and actually try to win decisively. My wins with Morgan always result in me fighting off my foes and taking economic or trancendance victories just moments before Morgan Industries falls. I'll take the Spartans any day over the Morgans.

If one were a believer, one could derive a very religious meaning from that

[Rubin]

Originally posted by AMD4EVER
Rubin, Spartans get free Skunkworks at all their bases

I ran a test and I haven't yet succeded in getting free Skunkworks for the Spartans. They do get free prototyping, but NOT the retool lifting! AMD4EVER, if you are able to have the Spartans retool for free, please let me know.

Archaic: Yes, I'm certain of this one. At least in my SMACX v2.

[AMD4EVER]

Oh, strange. I always assumed because of the color of non-prototyped items that the spartans had skunkworks free. But I guess your right, they only get free prototyping, not a free skunkworks.

[AMD4EVER]

The best thing about this game has to be that at the end of every game there is a very interesting story to tell. I've not seen a game yet that didn't have a unique story of diplomacy, war, and achievement attatched to it by the end of the game. I wish there were more games like this!

[Jac de Molay]

As for that link, I disagree that Morgan shines in the beginning. Any faction close to Morgan can just gobble him up, RTs or no RTs. They can't support an early army

I think this is biggest problem I have- the support just kills me. In the early game, having even one garrison and one former per base really stifles base productivity, even after rec. tanks are built.

It seems like some ideal conditions need to be present for morgan to thrive - no nearby enemies, and relatively little surrounding fungus. The most success Ive had with faction is on a small island where I relied exclusively on tidal harness and sea crawlers.

Jac.

[CEO Aaron]

The support is a non-factor, in my opinion. Yes, you'll pay a mineral to support a second unit. The answer: Build infantry probes to garrision your bases, and upgrade them to synthmetal with cash. Now you've got your garrision and your former, to no loss in productivity.

Besides, most times I'll build multiple formers and live with the upkeep, since the value of additional formers far exceeds the cost of paying for their upkeep, and once I've gotten IA, I can crawl minerals to make up the difference.

The advantage of Morgan is that you get those extra FOPs from RT's almost instantly (by 2106, typically), which in turn allows much faster expansion. If I've got 8 bases producing 2 minerals per turn, and you've got 4 bases producing 3 minerals per turn, who's producing more?

Morgan's REAL penalty is the reduced hab limits, capping your population at 11 once you've got Hab complexes built. In order to compensate for that, you NEED to make sure your energy production is going to cover the difference those 3 extra specialists will make. If you're not making it up in trade, you need to go out and conquer yourself some trading partners.

[Gufnork]

I just tried Morgan again and I saw that they were stronger than I remembered them. There are a few features with 3+ economy that isn't mentioned on the SE page. Economy 3 gives besides extra commerce rating a +2 energy bonus in each base, in addition to the economy 2 bonus. With economy 4 it's 2 more. So your base squares produce 7 energy each for a FM/Wealth Morganite. No, they're definetly not the worst faction.

[Rubin]

Originally posted by Gufnork
There are a few features with 3+ economy that isn't mentioned on the SE page. Economy 3 gives besides extra commerce rating a +2 energy bonus in each base, in addition to the economy 2 bonus. With economy 4 it's 2 more. So your base squares produce 7 energy each for a FM/Wealth Morganite.

This is VERY interesting, Gufnork. I ran a test with Morgan. Here are the results:

• 1, +1 energy each base
• 2, +1 energy each square!
• 3, +1 energy each square; +3 energy/base; +1 commerce rating!!
• 4, +1 energy/sq; +2 energy/base +5 energy/base; +2 commerce!!!
• 5, +1 energy/sq; +4 energy/base +5 energy/base; +3 commerce!!!!

Is this a bug or just another example of misinformation in SMAC/X? Or have I done something wrong?

[Lazerus]

Morgan is a good faction if you can survive intact upto bio-engineering, if you're hit before you've got a good supply of crawlers out then its goodbye
The AI military factions normally surrender once they realise they're no longer a military power.

As for Yang surrendering i just lost my first ever game to the AI ...
I've won the 1 city challenge on a large map, wheres its all nice and easy to sit alone until you've got a few dozen clean choppers so i thought lets try it on small, i'll prob start between santi and yang and have a good old fight (was playing as the drones)
Well Yang started off on the monsoon jungle so you can guess what he did to the other AI well Lal actually hadn't been hit yet, ocean between them, and he was the only reason Yang didnt get elected supreme leader. Even though i'd been running demo most of the game Yang kept a treaty with me until just after Lal signed a truce with me (damn pk's instantly declared war on me as soon as we met !!!) and in comes 8 jets wipes out most of my coastal crawlers, then 4 choppers rake my base of units and i watch as 2 transports unload around 10 units which i scream "NOOOOOOOOO" to as they move into my base 4 turns before i completed a PB to remove those big jungle bases where they were sitting.

Come to think of it, thats either the usual treacherous AI or the smartest thing i've ever seen it do ...

[Gufnork]

I've lost a game against the AI trying my best. When Miriram starts in the monsoon jungle right next to you and rover rushes you're in trouble. I had no way to counter Miriam with AI bonuses with laser rovers. I had four bases when she swarmed me.

But I agree, Morgan is a great faction if you can survive up to bio-engineering. I don't even feel you need to go that far, considering the insane amount of basesquare energy they apparently get. If they manage to preserve the peace in the world they're unstoppable.

[Chaos Theory]

Rubin: the +base energy and +tile energy from high economy stack, so your chart should really look like this:

1, +1 energy each base

2, +1 energy each square!

3, +1 energy each square; +2 more energy/base; +1 commerce rating!!

4, +1 energy/sq; +4 more energy/base; +2 commerce!!!

5, +1 energy/sq; +4 more energy/base; +3 commerce!!!!

And, actually, without the bug, +3 economy is trivially better than +2 economy for most of the game.