Red Front suggestions

[mrtemba]

any questions as to why asked this man to playtest my scenario ?

[Captain Nemo]

Thanks for the excellent feedback Jim, I'll send you my E-mail address again, so you can correspond with me, without going through the Forum...

Several of the suggestions you listed are already implemented!

Note: Germans will not build any units whatsoever no matter what you do! I disabled all improvements and capitalization and they continue building capitalization. The AI must think he is so far ahead that he doesn't need units. (Is there an internal max ratio of units/city?)
We had the same problem when I helped Alex with Spartacus.

Your suggestion about the paratroopers was already implemented as of last night. I used "Commando" units but made them numerous. The text reads "XX overwhelms garisson of YY"

I also had made the third rules file, active in summer 1941 to simulate the early blitzkrieg capabilites.

It seems we think alike!

I'll address some of your other points in a detailed E-mail.

[DarthVeda]

I firstly want to say what a privelege it is to playtest your scenario, and even though I've been working on something similar for 9 months now, I was floored by your excellent work.

There were, however, a few things. But first let me comment on Jim's words of wisdom.

I played in Diety (a harrowing experience let me tell you) till Feb 1942.

1) Do not give Germans iZOC or any special abilities. They are deadly enough as is. If they have to be harder, tell the player to utilize diety mode.

5) Refer to the guides about this one. It's probably that you don't have the AI set to militaristic (either that or the AI can't build the units because they all nullify each other--see the advanced scenario design faq).

6) There are a few areas I would recommend placing rails for the player's sake.

• Trans-siberian railway
• Lvov to Kiev
• Through the Baltics
• Minsk to Bialystok
• From Berlin to Prague & other industrialized German cities (for AI's benefit)

7) I agree, the Russians made great use of the winter. It may be even better to have a "Freeze" icon for certain German tanks and completely immobilize them. For the first winter, you may wish to have a seperate rules.txt and crapify the German infantry to simulate the lack of uniforms and ammunition. The Russian player at least needs a certain breather during the winter to catch up in deity.

8) Perhaps a house rule that they can only be used to add population units to your cities in the rear?

9) There were far too few supply trucks to make hunting for them reasonable. Perhaps increase their numbers or give a more drastic effect (like money decrease for Germany?)

10) Woah, that's a great idea. Give them no attack and no defense, but a very high cost (60 perhaps) so that they disband into a LOT of resource. The player would get one per turn in London, and would horde them until they could be shipped.

12) I agree, there weren't any division sized SS units until late in the war.

13) Also a good point

15) Yes, every fortification I built was smashed by Me109s. How about bomber-style fighter units (2 turns out), so I can have MY fighters protect my forts under construction. (How about a Yak-3 too... waiting for Yak-9 is annoying. Or Lagg-5 even).

Now for my experience. On Deity, the Germans, by Feb 42, were able to take everything up to Bransk-Kursk-and basically all of the Ukraine (Odessa still remained in my hands). I have been fanatically defending Kiev.

I can't seem to organize any kind of counteroffensive (even in the winter).

Here are my points (some were already mentioned):

1) The T-34/76 is underpowered. This tank was feared by every German tank crew until the completion of the PzIVF2G in early 1942. It should have at least as much punch as a Panther (or the panther should be toned down, to about T-34/85 standard).

2) The KV-I was in production since 1940. Giving this to the Russians as a highly mobile defensive unit (it was tougher than the T-34 to kill--but not as mobile and powerful per se) would help greatly.

3) Where's Tula? This Russian city was a point as heavily defended as Moscow itself. The Germans tried to bypass Moscow for an encirclement through this city.

4) Warsaw is underpopulated. Before it's Jewish population was removed, it contained as many as 1.5 Million people. Afterwards, that total was closer to 900,000.

5) Me109 is a bit overbearing on my poor defenders. These things took out the majority of my units.

6) Your solidarity message is too long... it cuts of at "an..."

7) The huge defecit is interesting. I hope that was intended

8) Where's the Panzer 38(t)? This tank made up a large percentage of the German tank corps at the beginning of the campaign.

9) Your "Karl" has an awfully high defensive value. If you want to prevent it from being easily killed, give it a higher hitpoint value and a lower defensive value (it's invincible on deity).

[Kull]

Excellent commentary, Jim & Darth! Actually left me itching to download the darn thing. I look forward to the release.

[Jim Winchell]

Captain Nemo: I don't have an E-mail address for you, so I'll post my observations here:

I played until the first winter turn. The Germans had captured the Baltic states (although they only took Tallinn in Nov), reclaimed the ceded parts of Romania (Chinisu? I forget the Russianized name) and took Odessa in October. They emptied Minsk of Russia units on the first turn but didn't take the city. The AI almost completely ignored Brest Litovsk. I still hold Minsk and Brest Litovsk (and can probably hold these cities forever). The German units are just milling about Poland, although a few tanks have infiltrated behind my lines.

Suggestions on how to make the computer-run German player achieve the historical advances into Russia:
1. Create a special rules file for the June-Nov 41 turns (you already have two special files already so this shouldn't be difficult). Make all German ground units ignore ZOC, have alpine ability, and ignore city walls (maybe even make them stronger in attack if necessary) for the summer of 1941.
2. The computer always captured empty cities with paratroopers, even when there were dozens of tanks nearby. It seemed like the AI waited until there was a paratrooper available before occupying a city. German paratroopers played a very small role in Barbarossa and should be removed. Instead, give German infantry the paratroop capability for the summer of 1941 and when they land in a city have the pop up text read something like "German infantry advance into the conquered city."
3. Eliminate partisans until the first winter (perhaps give the Russians the guerilla warfare advance through events on the first winter turn). Historically, partisan activity in the Baltic, Poland and the Ukraine wasn't significant in 1941. In your game, the partisans really slowed the Germans down. I had one fortified on a mountain in Romania which may last until 1945.
4. Take most of the ground units that are in Odessa and Brest Litovsk and deploy them in a continuous line along the Soviet-German/Axis border so the human player can watch them caught out in the open and destroyed on the first turn (like what happened in June 1941). Perhaps give the Germans some artillery at the start of the game near Brest Litovsk. Have lots of Rumanian infantry and artillery start on the border near Odessa (historically the Rumania army was decimated in the assault on Odessa, German divisions had to be diverted to help capture the city).

[Jim Winchell]

Other suggestions:
5. In cheat mode, I could not find one German city that was building units. Most of the large cities in Germany were using Capitalism to produce gold. Other cities were building useless structures like Sewer Systems. Disable the Germans from building most structures (except city walls) and Capitalism (see below) so they will build units. If the lack of Capitalism causes a drain on the German economy, give the German's Adam Smith (call it Winterhilfe instead of Civilian Donations).
6. The map is too big and rail lines can't be used. I for one am not going to inch units from the Urals to the front, and historically it didn't take three years for an infantry division to travel from Siberia to Moscow. Assuming that you are not going to start over with a map only depicting Russia just beyond the Volga, give the Russians Capitalism (call it Soviet Factories or Production) so I can have the cities in the Urals producing gold so I can BUY units in the cities near the front.
7. Give Russian units alpine movement during the winter.
8. Get rid of refugees. Reasons:
a. The units are all beautiful except for the refugees. It looks like the truck from the Beverly Hillbillies.
b. Russian refugees would not have motor transport (or settler capabilities).
c. Historically, the Russian peasant did not leave his home. I never read of refugees clogging the roads like they did during the Polish and French Campaigns. The population initially welcomed the Germans as liberators in the places where you have refugees appear.
d. Refugees take up valuable event space and use a unit slot that you could put to better use.
9. Get rid of German Ammunition trucks. I only saw one. Have partisans appear through events a different way (like when certain Soviet units are destroyed).
10. Lend lease is cute, but not accurate. If one convoy makes it you have an instant Army of the Arctic to advance into Norway. Instead of ground units, have a unit called "Raw Materials" (no attack or defense, lots of movement points) that can be shipped to Murmansk and disbanded to create units. Some of these could be initially disbanded in the UK to build escort destroyers. Give Freighters move movement points. If you have an extra unit slot, create a British patrol fighter (appears at start and through events) in the UK to keep the German subs and bombers at bay.

[Jim Winchell]

Nitpicking:

11. Finland should not be able to build tanks. The only tanks they had in 1941 were what they captured from the Soviets during the Winter War. Give the Finns a few tank units at the start of the game.
12. Too many SS units. Have Wehrmacht units appear through events rather than SS units until 1942-43. Give Einsatz-Commando units a Defense role in the rules so they will garrison Russian cities.
13. Give German units a Defense role in the rules during Winter turns.
14. Get rid of the events for the fall of Kiev, Brest-Litovsk, Odessa, Minsk in Events2, 3, 4+. The computer wasn't able to capture these cities during the Summer of 41, award yourself the Order of Lenin and restart the game.
15. Start the game with fortifications already built like the Stalin Line and where the Soviets (and later Germans) actually formed defensive lines (behind rivers, in front of cities, in good defensive terrain, etc.). It was impossible to build forts with the Luftwaffe overhead (and I'm sure the German AI won't build any, but they might garrison one already built).

[Miner]

I am really sorry to butt in on a thread devoted to a scenario I am not playtesting but I have to mention something.

DarthVeda wrote:

The T-34/76 is underpowered. This tank was feared by every German tank crew until the completion of the PzIVF2G in early 1942. It should have at least as much punch as a Panther (or the panther should be toned down, to about T-34/85 standard).

And this is correct, the superior sloping armour did put the fear of god into the krauts (apologies to any native Germans out there) but the Russians were crap tankers with lousy tactics. Implementing this would be easy by making the units non-vet.

Just my 2 pence worth, hope this helps.

[Jim Winchell]

In order for the German AI to achieve a historical high-water mark for the summer 41 campaign, it must reach the line Leningrad-Moscow-Kharkow-Rostov and be in the Crimea. There should be very little that the human player can do to stop this. The goal of the Soviets should be that the computer Hitler doesn't do any better than this and to prepare for a Winter counter-offensive. If you can consistently get the computer AI to advance this far, then you can plan your events files accordingly.

I tinkered with the various changes I proposed yesterday. Alpine movement and/or ignore city walls for panzers was too powerful, Ignore ZOC didn't really matter because the computer always attacked a nearby unit rather than go around it. What worked really well was to make all German and Axis infantry have a movement value of 2 and make them alpine for the summer of 1941. I also gave the Wehrmacht paradrop capability. Try it, you'll like it. "Army Group Centre" did very well, having taken Smolensk and Vitebsk by November. "Army Group North" was adjacent to Narva and the Luftwaffe had emptied Luga with lots of panzers a few hexes to the south. The computer also took the city north of Kallinn (D-something) with lots of tanks, which was better than historical.

The Ukraine is causing the AI fits. Because Brest-Litovsk and Odessa are holding out longer than they should (still full of units in Nov), Kiev and the other cities west of the Dnieper are getting mostly ignored.

More Suggestions:

1. Add "Daugavpils" (between Riga and Vitebsk) with a road from it north to Luga and Leningrad. You've got a big empty space here and I believe part of a Soviet airborne corps was stationed at Daugavpils and a reserve infantry corps just north. The road north to Leningrad will help the computer AI's advance.

2. Add "Velikie Luki" on the road between Vitebsk and the "D?" city north of Kallinn. Velikie Luki is the German highwater mark, not the D city.

3. Fewer units in Brest-Litovsk and Odessa. Brest-Litovsk needs to fall on the first turn, Odessa has to hold out for the first turn but not indefinitely. Give freighters enough movements points to be able to travel from Sevastopol and Odessa in one turn. Historically, the Soviets reinforced Odessa by sea until the Crimea was threatened. Remove the German destroyers and cruisers in the Black Sea. Add more destroyers and cruisers to the Soviet Black Sea and Baltic fleet (the Russians also had a couple of battleships).

4. A line of fortifications in each hex along the German/Rumanian border with a Red Army unit or two in each hex (cannon fodder for the first turn).

5. A line of fortifications (on roads and every other hex) along the prewar Soviet-Polish border and Soviet Rumanian border (the "Stalin Line"). Put a Red Army unit or two in each hex (more cannon fodder for the first-second turn).

6. Reduce the time it takes to make minefields to one turn.

7. All Russian cities in the German path should have city walls at start to avoid complete destruction.

[Jim Winchell]

My mistake--If that "D" city is Demyansk, then the Germans did get that far, although they didn't approach the city the way the computer AI did (I would still add Velikie Luki to the map). A small German army (Totenkopf SS, 5 infantry divisions) was pocketed there during the winter of 41 and successfully supplied by air until relieved (which may have lead to the unrealistic expectations of supplying the 6th Army at Stalingrad the next winter). There was also the Kholm pocket nearby (8th Pz XX, 2 infantry divisions) which held barely held out, the survivors got to wear the Kholm shield on the sleeve of their uniform (the was also a Narvik and Crimea shield). This might be a cool event for the Winter 41--have a bunch of German infantry units pop up behind the Russian lines on the first winter turn.

[Captain Nemo]

Thanks for all the additional feedback...I am working full speed to implement the changes. I answered/commented on most of the above in a direct E-mail to all testplayers...

The relative strength of the T34 vs PzKw IV that is discussed is an excellent point, but I see it this way: The AI is the crappy tanker/strategist, not the human player so the real relative strengths of the units are not in the rules.txt numbers but in the actual kill statistics (Defense minister screen/Casualties) Human units must be weaker to avoid unrealistic results... If for example a T-34 kills a stack of 4 PzKw IV every time and can "retire" to a friendly city for repair you can end up with 10-1 kill ratios which are much too high. With weak T34s I still get 2-1 kill ratios...

Anyone who is intrigued by this scenario should take a look at the preview page on CSC hosted by Apolyton (Just click CSC site at the bottom of this page)

[Jim Winchell]

Captain Nemo--the e-mail I sent you came back undelivered. This is what I sent out yesterday:

>Historically, Brest should hold for a while even after being"encircled"

Brest Litovsk should be tough to take out, but it should fall on the first turn. [It held out for 4 days not 4 months]

>German AI seems to have an internal "limiter" as to the number of cities he
>will capture in a turn(3?) (He still leaves empty cities unoccupied, even
>with about 120 "paratroopers" in the vicinity).

When I changed German infantry units to have paradrop and alpine capabilities, the Germans took seven cities on the first turn. The computer then moved all of the damaged units into the conquered city the next turn, rested until fully "healed", and then moved on. This is how my game went last night with the modifications.

June: Riga, Lvov, Minsk, Kaunas, Vilnius, Kishinev, Byalostok
July: No cities taken, but tanks pounding away at Odessa, Gomel and Smolensk
August: Tallinn (reduced to a size one city due to no city wall), tanks pounding away at Kiev, Odessa, Smolensk and Bryansk
September: Gomel was almost taken (reinforcements made in just in time, plus built a city wall--the city went to a size 3), infantry arrives at Kiev, Odessa, and Smolesk
October: Tanks adjacent to Narva; Smolensk, Vitebsk and Demyansk taken, Luftwaffe empties Luga of units
November: Lots of tanks south of Leningrad, Narva fended off adjacent tanks with no problem, Kiev still holding out but with only a few units, Odessa and Brest-Litovsk well defended with 2-3 arty units that wipe out any stack of Germans left adjacent to the city each turn (Germans can't seem to destroy the NKVD troopers); the city behind the Dnieper was wiped out of existence due to no city walls, the other cities just west of the Dnieper were still Soviet, but had German infantry (SS) adjacent

In my Fire in the East/Scorched Earth game, NKVD units prevent Russian units from retreating and the Soviet player only gets a handful of them to defend crucial cities. Keep your NKVD trooper a toughy, make them unbuildable, and give the Soviets a few at start (and maybe more through events, such as the defense of Stalingrad, Leningrad, and Sevastopol). Put one in Brest-Litovsk (to be destroyed on the first turn, but taking out quite a few tanks in the process), Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev, Kharkov, Rostov--cities that shouldn't be destroyed by mere tank assaults and where you hope the Germans will be stopped by the Winter events.

>I couldn't get the Partisan not to pop up... I deleted Guerilla warfare
>from the Soviet side and still got partisans. There must be another
>criteria for them "appearing" rather than building them. Do you know what
>it is? Somehow the German cities don't form guerillas when they are
>conquered... Is it something to do with communism??

I heard that partisans first appear with communism, but more appear with communism and guerilla warfare. However, I changed my mind about taking out the partisans--they look too cool and with German infantry having alpine movement they don't slow things down too much. Make them a strength point weaker on defense for the Summer 41.

>I CANNOT make the AI build units.

One thing that I have never seen done is "upgrade" existing units when you change the rules files. For example, when you switch from the Summer of 41 to Winter 41 rules file, change the Me 109e to Me 109f, Me 110c to Me 110e (you don't have this), short barrel Pz III would be upgraded to long barrel PzIII (e?), etc. You also mentioned you needed an intermediate Russian fighter--the fighters that survive the summer blitzkrieg can be "upgraded" with the Winter 41 rules. The unit graphic stays the same but the unit values slightly improve, and the same unit stays in play throughout the game. Until the Russians thin out the German units so that the AI starts building new, "upgrading" may be the only way to keep the Germans competitive.

I don't how detailed you want this game to become. A separate rules file with each event file wouldn't be difficult to do--you already have one for the Summer of 41 and you should have one for the Winter of 41 to reflect the adverse effects that exceptionally horrible winter had on the Germans. If enough German units get killed off so that the Germans start building after the Summer 42 events, then you wouldn't need any further special rules files.

However the really deluxe scenario would have separate rules files AND separate units files (where PzII & Pz38(t) get upgraded to Hummels & Wespes, etc).

>But I think I get the point: Too much micro-management?

I prefer the idea of using the Urals to produce $$$ (through Capitalization) to speed build/buy units near the front. Airlifting tanks and infantry divisions from the Urals is not realistic and I hate moving units. Also it shouldn't take two months to move a tank unit from Sverdlovsk to Moscow (and another month to move it into battle).

>Point 7. I will give SOME Russian units high winter mobility by the winter
>of 1942. But in 1941 I wanted the Finns to have a clear advantage...

With no rail lines, how can the Soviets launch a counter-offensive when the infantry is creeping to the front at 2 hexes a months (less if its Red Army or Artillery)? By the winter of 1941, the Finns had reached their objectives and parked it until 1944.

>Regarding the truck it is a "ZIS" 1.2 ton truck, "polutorka" - the most
>common used russian civilian vehicle of WW-II (This is Alex's feedback, he
>wanted refugees in trucks not on foot!). ...Does anyone else think the
>Refugee graphic needs to go?

From what I've read (the defector Viktor Suvorov), all Russian motor vehicles were subject to being impressed into military service in time of war. I doubt "Refugees" would get very far in a truck before it was grabbed by the Red Army. But then you expect the refugee unit to travel all the way to the Urals and settle in a city or mine the surrounding hexes (which takes 20 turns?).
Get rid of the refugees and slave labor units (the computer will probably use them to create new cities). This is a war scenario, use these two unit slots for a combat unit (like the Pzkw38t--a Czech tank). Depict refugees by having laborers pop up randomly in the Urals.

>Maybe make UK freighter capacity of 2 units, build one armored infantry
>with 0a capability (Can't be used for conquest) and one freight per turn?

I used the first 3 armored infantry to garrison the UK to keep it from revolting. If they have a 0a then I can't do this and I'll end up with Red Army units in the UK. I like the idea, because the Soviets got a lot of halftracks from the U.S. However I was not successful in getting any freighters to the Soviets--you've got too many Battleships, Bombers, and subs. Since the AI cheats and always knows where units are, I doubt if any freighters will get through.

BTW, there was another Lend Lease route through Persia to the Caucasus, you might have a "freight" unit randomly appear at the south edge of the map.

>Point 13. The Einsatz-Kommando historically roamed the country, which they
>will not do if the defense role is set, but with the 2 wehrmacht units
>(attack/defense) garrisons should not be a problem anymore.

If they are set to attack then they will be in the front line. They should be lumped in with all the security units the Germans used in the rear areas. The Wehrmacht units should all have attack roles for the Summer of 41 and 42 or they'll never leave Germany. The German infantry should be the primary assault force to take cities (however with a slight modification, your paratrooper graphic could be an assault engineer).

>Point 15. Did you ever get to the Labor unit that can build minefields?

I think you had it taking 5 turns to make a mine field--change it to 1. You need to already build fortifications and put a Red Army unit where the Soviets formed defensive lines. Then it will be up to the human player to decide whether or not to reinforce and defend on that line, evacuate, or let the Red Army unit die. It takes just too long to build forts AND get units there. Plus the Germans will eventually use these forts when they are on the defensive (and you don't have to worry about stacks of units getting wiped out).

>Counter offensive... The first effective one was in the winter of 1942....a minor one in the >winter of 1941
The Russians pushed the Germans back from Moscow, Rostov, and Kharkov. In every wargame I've played the first Russian Winter is payback time.

>That's where the real picture is. One T34/76 counterattack takes out 3-4
>PzKw IV in a stack!
The computer can afford to take a wallop now and then. Historically, German panzer divisons were at 25% strength after the summer blitzkriegs (although a lot of panzers broke down rather than were destroyed).

[Kull]

A couple comments on "City Walls": (I haven't playtested the scenario -- or even seen it, for that matter -- so hopefully I'm not suggesting something which has already been done.)

Yes, they are essential for almost all cities! One of my pet peeves is scenarios which don't use them in important cities. It's not hard to wipe out even a size 8 city, believe me! But rename them. Someone (Petroski or Jeszenka, I think), called them "anti-tank" defenses and simply gave ignore-wall power to infantry. This was a GREAT idea, IMHO. I'd incorporate the concept and simply give credit where credit's due.

[Captain Nemo]

Great suggestion!
Exactly what I had done, used John Petroski's anti-tank defense idea, ignored by all infantry units and gave him credit (This is also how it's done in "2194 Days of War")

[MagyarCrusader]

John Petroski was the first to do it. I originally had most units ignore city walls, because of the reasons Kull mentioned. But that included tanks. In retrospect, I think the anti tank defense is better. In Third Reich, i didn't make my armor units way more powerful than the inf. because it would be loopsided. But the anti tank defense allows you to do that and have infantry still be important.

The only problem is when a tank is defending behind city walls... Anyone know of a way of preventing that situation from turning heavily in favor of the defender?

[Kull]

MJ: I haven't really thought this through, but there MAY be a way to do it using the "X2 vs. 2X movement" feature. If only your armor has MP of 2X, then it would minimize their defense in a city RELATIVE to that of every other unit. Here's an example:

1) Infantry (8A) attacks non-fortified tank (2D) in a city w/AT defense. Relative value = 8vs6 (4-3)

2) Tank(8A) attacks non-fortified tank (2D) in a city w/AT defense. Relative value = 8vs6 (4-3)

3) Infantry (8A) attacks non-fortified infantry(2D) in a city w/AT defense. Relative value = 8vs6 (4-3)

4) Tank (8A) attacks non-fortified infantry(2D) in a city w/AT defense. Relative value = 8vs12 (2-3)

Now, without the X2 vs 2X defense, 1,2,& 3 stay the same, but 4 reverts to 4-3 odds. The big question of course, is can you live with infantry who only have 1MP?

Note: When X2vs MP2 and City wall defense both apply, are the effects additive or multiplicative? In this example that would be either (2X3)+(2X2)=10 or (2X3X2)=12

[MagyarCrusader]

It may just be me, but I've never seen the x2 vs. move 2 units ability work properly except on pikemen. I tried expermenting with this while making my Rising Sun scenario. I had 2 different units do several test attacks on a Pillbox with the dx2 ability. Of the 2 other units, one had move 1 and the other had move 2. Other than that they were exactly the same. After several trial attacks, the results were relatively the same. I even email Jesus Balsinde about it. He said it was probably my huge unit values that was messing things up. So I toned the attack and defense values back to values around 10, but it still didn't make a difference.

[Miner]

The *2 defence vs Move2 units DOES work in all cases (I did a test for units with varying HP/FP move etc etc) but, unfortunately the effect gets 'washed out', as it were, when the values go up, (esp. HP).
Which goes to show, it is more effective to have an advantage in HP rather than this flag.

[mrtemba]

i'm drooling....i want to play this now!

[techumseh]

Temba, have you been taking mind-altering substances again? First ToT and now a WWII scenario. Who are you and what have you done with Temba?