Rugby - See You In Ten! - Page 10

LDiCesare · August 31, 2003, 07:25

The point of these shirts is they are hard to grab. This supposedly makes tackling harder, but not at this level of play. It also probably makes it harder for the loose head prop to grab his opponent's arm.

finbar · August 31, 2003, 07:56

Yes, the All Blacks wore them a couple of times during the Tri-Nations. Or at least some of the players did. They're designed to make them harder to grab. I don't know what they'll be like to wear in the hot weather during the WRC, though. There will be little or no air circulation.

Havak · August 31, 2003, 09:28

Two man team Finbar? That side could have beaten any SH team.

Maybe.

Well I am sure that result went down quite well anyway?

Very disappointing to lose a game we should have strolled away with – but I can’t say I’m that bothered – it answered a lot of questions for our squad and raised a lot more for France.

Let me start by saying that I think France will be perhaps the biggest threat to England at the World Cup – the level of physical challenge they offered up front is beyond anything the big SH sides have thrown at us in years. Should we both reach that semi final clash it will be a huge game.

Now lets look at the bad. The referee. Not hard to see where he came from – typical SH - didn’t penalise the side in possession for anything all game. Totally at sea when asked to police the scrum (and consequently let Galthie get away with absolute murder). Weak and ineffectual when asked to make big decisions – if Finbar still has a thing about Luger then the second French try will live in infamy for the total lack of control the ‘scorer’ had over the ball.

Even so but for a fumble by Sanderson we would still have taken the game.

The big negatives for us – the line out was a total mess and almost certainly cost us the game – 50% does not cut it in the modern game. Borthwick is the lock that will miss the plane – Grewcock and Shaw will be there as back up to the Johnson/Kay axis. Sanderson was out of his depth at 8 and will miss the cut – the gulf in class between him and his (sadly on record as English hating) counterpart was far too evident. Sadly Moody had a very quiet game and I fear has done his chances no good at all. Both hookers had awful throwing games – but then Keith Wood aside there are no good hookers in world rugby right now?

On the plus side? Corry did enough to warrant a place. Healey – the odd howler aside – looks like he will travel as his performance under huge adversity (his scrum was not providing the platform an English scrummy should get) was solid. Gomersall will travel for sure. Any of the front row can make the cut.

Now we are all very familiar with the Kiwi claim, having left two forwards at home last November, that it wasn’t their first team right? Well yesterday England had three ‘first’ teamers in the twenty two – and came as close as anyone has to beating France in Marseille. It’s disappointing but it isn’t the end of my world.

I’d be very interested in Tamerlin and LDiCesares opinion of the truly bizarre extended victory lap the French team did in the stadium after the game – what did they hope to gain? Had they won a world cup or something? The first team will have seen that and it’s the perfect motivator for us for next week? It’s all very French…

To be honest i do not see this French side troubling the first team at HQ - but then you just never know with the French do you?

Tamerlin · August 31, 2003, 10:52

I don't know about any victory lap as we turned off the television just after the game. As far as I am concerned a 1 point victory over an English B-team is not really a victory to celebrate.

The backs are the real problem, IMO they are not playing the right way, they don't know when they should run or when they should create a maul or open scrum to find again their forwards and tigthen the defense. If you do not hold the defense in place you can't find holes to run through, in other words they put the cart before the horse (curiously enough the french colloquialism is "mettre la charrue devant les boeufs" which should be translated as "to put the plough before the oxen").

I think the game was poor in the sense that it was hardly constructed, there seemed to be nor forethoughts nor plan in the french actions.

LDiCesare · August 31, 2003, 11:27

Quote:

I’d be very interested in Tamerlin and LDiCesares opinion of the truly bizarre extended victory lap the French team did in the stadium after the game – what did they hope to gain? Had they won a world cup or something?

I think they were just happy to have beaten England, and that they like the people in Marseille.
I mean, if they had lost to England there, and a diminished England team to say the least, they would have kissed bye bye to any hope. So the lap was probably to show they still had an opportunity to do something in the Cup. But I don't think they fool anyone.

Tamerlin, I agree that the backs are the problem. The forwards were quite good, though the back row didn't manage to be as mobile as needed. The problem was the amount of knocks on and forward passes: All wingers' balls were wrong. The only thing the French did well was to send Traille hurl himself into his opponents to create a ruck. Hardly a match-winning tactic. I hope with a lot of work they will be able to do better.

Tamerlin · August 31, 2003, 12:09

Quote:

Originally posted by LDiCesare
I hope with a lot of work they will be able to do better.

And a lot of time which France does not have before the RWC...

My main concern is that the lacks of this team are well known since a year, we see them playing like this over and over again and nothing is changing. I agree the forwards have made a good game, but once again they were playing against a B-team, they should have been used more often in mauls and open scrum but that is not their fault.

Another problem is that I see a complete lack of tactic or strategy in the game played by the French team, there is no tactical vision and thus no possibility to adapt the way of playing to the opponent of the day. The last game played against the AB in the Stade vélodrome of Marseilles was eloquent, they played the same way from the beginning to the end of the game though it was obvious since the middle of the first half that it was not the good tactic. I agree the AB were lucky to reach a draw but the French players proved they were, once again, unable to adapt themselves to their adversaries.

st_swithin · August 31, 2003, 14:27

They should do something about those shorts, though.

Tamerlin · August 31, 2003, 14:45

You are right, this new type of shirt is awful, give us back our good old ones.

st_swithin · August 31, 2003, 14:46

At the falconer's request...

LET IT BE SO.

finbar · August 31, 2003, 19:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Havak
Two man team Finbar? That side could have beaten any SH team.

Maybe.

Well I am sure that result went down quite well anyway?

I'm just cross that it wasn't shown here! One of the FoxSports channels was showing live s***** and the other one was showing live golf from Germany! I'll settle for the golf, happily, but the s*****!

I keep reading snippets about someone charging the French goal kicker trying to distract him. Who was it? What happened exactly?

Quote:

if Finbar still has a thing about Luger then the second French try will live in infamy for the total lack of control the ‘scorer’ had over the ball.

Sorry, but nothing will ever supplant Luger's fraudulent effort in the Pantheon of Sporting Frauds.

Quote:

Both hookers had awful throwing games – but then Keith Wood aside there are no good hookers in world rugby right now?

I've been saying that all season. The class hooker is an endangered species.

Quote:

I’d be very interested in Tamerlin and LDiCesares opinion of the truly bizarre extended victory lap the French team did in the stadium after the game – what did they hope to gain? Had they won a world cup or something? The first team will have seen that and it’s the perfect motivator for us for next week? It’s all very French…

Obviously I didn't see it, but I assume the players were thanking the crowd for their support. Fair enough. England has done the same thing, lots of teams do it. And if the England 1st XV is going to have as little trouble next week as you believe, they shouldn't need cheap motivation.

finbar · August 31, 2003, 19:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Tamerlin
in other words they put the cart before the horse (curiously enough the french colloquialism is "mettre la charrue devant les boeufs" which should be translated as "to put the plough before the oxen").

You serfs!

finbar · August 31, 2003, 19:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Tamerlin
My main concern is that the lacks of this team are well known since a year, we see them playing like this over and over again and nothing is changing.

Now you know how I feel. Exactly the same problem exists with the Wallabies. The only difference is in the detail.

Andydog · September 1, 2003, 04:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Havak
Now we are all very familiar with the Kiwi claim, having left two forwards at home last November, that it wasn’t their first team right? Well yesterday England had three ‘first’ teamers in the twenty two – and came as close as anyone has to beating France in Marseille. It’s disappointing but it isn’t the end of my world.

Cripes pull the other one, we had made 13, count them 13 changes to the side that won the tri nations that year. We had a new hooker and two new locks play their first test cap and it was Spencer's first game for the AB's in yonks. New caps included Regan King, Danny Lee, Daniel Braid, Andrew Hore, Brad Mika, Keith Robinson, Rodney So'oialo, Ali Williams and Tony Woodcock. Enough said Havak?

Actually my girlfriend and I visited Leicester this weekend. We were there for about half an hour and got bored, so we decided to visit Leicester Forrest, which turned out to contain about 1 tree, a speedway, and lots of farms. The sheep looked a bit slutty - not like the classy blonds you get back home.

Havak · September 1, 2003, 05:05

And yet the side that won this years tri-nations contained how many of that tour party?

And of those new caps who played against us did you say? We faced the core of the side that became this years ABs - minus Jack and McCaw.

And how many players were missing in June?

Do you think I'm wrong to be overconfident Finbar? I honestly think unless France improve enormously it will be a comfortable win on Saturday.

And I can also tell the difference between thanking a crowd and triumphalism.

Havak · September 1, 2003, 05:19

Andydog - there is plenty to see in Leicester but the council make very little of the city's history so I can see how a visitor would fail to find the interesting things.

I bet you never even made it to Welford Road?

But then I'll not defend the city too much - I live in a far more exclusive part of the county myself (much classier sheep).

finbar · September 1, 2003, 07:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Havak
Do you think I'm wrong to be overconfident Finbar? I honestly think unless France improve enormously it will be a comfortable win on Saturday.

Thanks to FoxSports, I didn't see the game!

So I have absolutely no idea.

Quote:

And I can also tell the difference between thanking a crowd and triumphalism.

Oh look, les grenouilles like a parade, you know that.

finbar · September 1, 2003, 07:23

Quote:

And yet the side that won this years tri-nations contained how many of that tour party?

And of those new caps who played against us did you say? We faced the core of the side that became this years ABs - minus Jack and McCaw.

Here's the AB team that played England at Twickers last November:

Prop Joe McDonnell
Hooker Andrew Hore
Prop Kees Meeuws
Lock Keith Robinson
Lock Ali Williams
Flanker Marty Holah
Flanker Taine Randell (c)
No.8 Sam Broomhall
Scrum Half Steve Devine
Fly Half Carlos Spencer
Right Wing Doug Howlett
Centre Keith Lowen
Centre Tana Umaga
Left Wing Jonah Lomu
Fullback Ben Blair

Reserves:
Danny Lee
Andrew Mehrtens
Brad Mika
Mark Robinson
Keven Mealamu
Carl Hayman
Rodney So'oialo

I'd call it very much a 2nd 22.

Andydog · September 1, 2003, 07:30

Quote:

And yet the side that won this years tri-nations contained how many of that tour party?

And of those new caps who played against us did you say? We faced the core of the side that became this years ABs - minus Jack and McCaw.

The NZ starting 15 against England at Twickenham on 9 Nov 02 was as follows:

15. Ben Blair, 14. Doug Howlett, 13. Tana Umaga, 12. Keith Lowen, 11. Jonah Lomu, 10 Carlos Spencer, 9. Steve Devine, 8. Sam Broomhall, 7. Marty Holah, 6. Taine Randell (c), 5. Keith Robinson, 4. Ali Williams, 3. Kees Meeuws, 2. Andrew Hore, 1. Joe McDonnell.

Merhts replaced Spencer at half time.

The NZ starting 15 against Australia for the Tri-Nations/Bledisloe final on 16 Aug 03 was:

15. Mils Muliaina, 14. Doug Howlett, 13. Tana Umaga, 12. Aaron Mauger, 11. Joe Rokocoko, 10. Carlos Spencer, 9. Justin Marshall, 8. Jerry Collins, 7. Richard McCaw, 6. Reuben Thorne, 5. Ali Williams, 4. Chris Jack, 3. Greg Somerville, 2. Keven Mealamu, 1. Dave Hewett.

So, as can be seen, only 4 players are common, Howlett, Umaga, Spencer and Williams. Mate, just accept it. Our second rate team came within 3 of your full strength side at Twickenham.

Andydog · September 1, 2003, 07:37

Ah Finbar got in there just before me I see!

Quote:

there is plenty to see in Leicester but the council make very little of the city's history so I can see how a visitor would fail to find the interesting things.

I bet you never even made it to Welford Road?

No didn't make it that far, there was nothing in the Lonely Planet about it. I take it there is a disgusting amount of bitter to be drunk there?

Havak · September 1, 2003, 08:19

Last time I looked the ground had at least eight bars.

Well if that was a 2nd 22 it did make beating it and your first 22 rather enjoyable regardless.

Noit that io think you can count the ever changing front row as being different to be honest - Mitchell has tried every inadequate beefy boy who qualfies in the last year.

Did I mention we have beaten you twice in less than a year by the way?

finbar · September 1, 2003, 08:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Andydog
Ah Finbar got in there just before me I see!

When it comes to proving Havak wrong and jamming it up him, you have to get up very very early to beat me!

finbar · September 1, 2003, 08:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Havak
Last time I looked the ground had at least eight bars.

Call me a pedant, but presumably you're always looking from within one of them, meaning you can only see at least seven.

Andydog · September 1, 2003, 09:04

Havak is clearly someone who recognises pubs by the colour of their roofs. Eight different colours either means eight different pubs or he's managed to spew that accursed pork pie into his eyes again.

Havak · September 1, 2003, 10:37

A pedant you may be - but in this case accurate you most certainly are.

And I never waste good food - once eaten it stays eaten.

So that XV from November - how many figured in the tri nations this year that didn't play in that very last game?

You guys are trying to paint me in a very bad light methinks.

lightblue · September 1, 2003, 11:06

Quote:

Originally posted by finbar
Yes, the All Blacks wore them a couple of times during the Tri-Nations. Or at least some of the players did. They're designed to make them harder to grab. I don't know what they'll be like to wear in the hot weather during the WRC, though. There will be little or no air circulation.

I saw the game highlights on Sunday Grandstand (not a rugby fan, but it was after the rowing coverage). The tops look slightly out of place on 19st guys

Air circulation should not be trouble any trouble though. Rowers, cyclists, track athletes, italian football team and the australian women's basketball team all wear skintight lycra based outfits and (at least for rowing, which is the only one i got experience with) the summer material cools the skin by the same tactic as the Nike Dryfit soccer tops (it draws the sweat through the material). In winter I assume they'd slap some Coolmax in and then they're fairly hot.

Problem they seemed to have with the numbers and tearing are slightly more worrying probably.

finbar · September 1, 2003, 19:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Havak
And I never waste good food - once eaten it stays eaten.

I wonder what the collective noun for regurgitated pork pies might be. A "reappearance" of pork pies? A "here's looking at you again" of pork pies? A "Christ, did I eat that many!" of pork pies?

Quote:

You guys are trying to paint me in a very bad light methinks.

"Trying to paint"? I think you meant "succeeding in painting". Obviously a typo on your part.

finbar · September 1, 2003, 19:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Andydog
Havak is clearly someone who recognises pubs by the colour of their roofs.

Okay, call me a pedant again, but given that he's more often than not flat on his back on the bar floor, I'd've said ceilings rather than roofs.

ravagon · September 1, 2003, 20:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Havak
Did I mention we have beaten you twice in less than a year by the way?

This is starting to sound more and more like your " AB's haven't beaten England in almost 4 years" arguement, knowing full well that it'd been almost 4 years since they'd last faced off.

Here's a rather delightful comment from an Englander regarding the recent game vs France ...

Quote:

"After reading all the Sunday newspapers [and your review] I found the first thing mentioned was that in fact this was not the full England side. As I remember correctly the ABs have not fielded full strength sides in their last two defeats to England and the mere mention of this was met with derision from the great white hopefuls , and rightly so.

And now that the size 14 rugby boot is on the other foot the great white hopefuls are perhaps a little more accepting of the concept of losing after electing to field a second string side ... ?

finbar · September 1, 2003, 20:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Havak
So that XV from November - how many figured in the tri nations this year that didn't play in that very last game?

Okay, because I've just finished 10 months non-stop work, and I'm now on hols, I've done the exercise for you. Here are the players who figured in this year's Tri Nations who weren't in the team last November:

Prop - Dave Hewett (started all 4 matches)
Hooker - Keven Mealamu (started 3, reserve once)
Prop - Greg Somerville (started 3, reserve once)
Lock - Chris Jack (started 3, reserve once)
Lock - Brad Thorn (started once, reserve 3)
Flanker - Richie McCaw (started 3)
Flanker - Reuben Thorne (started all 4 matches)
#8 - Jerry Collins (started all 4 matches)
Scrum Half - Justin Marshall (started 3, reserve once)
Centre - Aaron Mauger (started all 4 matches)
Left Wing - Joe Rokocoko (started all 4 matches)
Full Back - Mils Muliaina (started all 4 matches)

And there are various other players who started on the bench during the Tri Nations who didn't appear last November.

To quote Ming - "Case closed!"

finbar · September 1, 2003, 20:31

Quote:

Originally posted by ravagon

This is starting to sound more and more like your " AB's haven't beaten England in almost 4 years" arguement, knowing full well that it'd been almost 4 years since they'd last faced off.

Here's a rather delightful comment from an Englander regarding the recent game vs France ...

And now that the size 14 rugby boot is on the other foot the great white hopefuls are perhaps a little more accepting of the concept of losing after electing to field a second string side ... ?

Hang on, it's only Tuesday. You're not ravagon, you're an imposter!