Rugby - See You In Ten! - Page 13

LDiCesare · September 7, 2003, 04:24

Did that intellectual come from SouthWestern France? I bet he didn't come from Marseille or Lens.

Tamerlin · September 7, 2003, 04:32

Are there any intellectuals coming from these areas?

Alexander's Horse · September 7, 2003, 04:49

He seemed like some sort of aristocrat.

finbar · September 7, 2003, 05:04

Quote:

Originally posted by LDiCesare
Also could someone explain me why Merceron played both scrum half and fly half and what the jerk wearing a blue jersey with a number 9 on his back was doing on the field? Waiting half an hour for someone else to get the ball out of a ruck?

Damn good question. I just watched a replay of the match. Turned it on late, missed the England try barrage, thankfully.

I assume the #9 was a replacement?

I think you and Tamerlin summed up the French performance pretty well. I'm also wondering why they opted to kick for goal when down 3-38, followed by a drop goal? Very odd.

LDiCesare · September 7, 2003, 06:07

Yachvili is not the first scum half. This is Galthie.
Actually, I believe that, right now, our best choice of scrum half are, in this order and considering only the players selected for the RWC:
Galthie, Michalak, Merceron, Dominici, 25 others, Yachvili.

But then, noone ever listens to me as to who should play scrum half anyway. Maybe Yachvili would make a good hooker?

Quote:

I'm also wondering why they opted to kick for goal when down 3-38, followed by a drop goal?

The penalty kick was weird. Geting a lineout at 5 meters would have been much better in my opinion. I believe in almost everyone's opinion. Maybe Merceron wanted to show he could score points in-match?
The drop goal, on the other side, was not so bad, since it was unclear the French could attack from that ball and that position. They would have needed to regroup, create a new ruck or maul, and then redeploy the backs. Getting those points was not that bad an idea. And I like drop goals, too. They force the defense to consider an additional option.

Tamerlin · September 7, 2003, 08:38

Quote:

Originally posted by LDiCesare But then, noone ever listens to me as to who should play scrum half anyway. Maybe Yachvili would make a good hooker?

Maybe for the Biarritz Olympique but not for the French team. The fact is I have never seen Dimitri Yachvili at his advantage with the BO and the French team.

I don't understand why Jean-Baptiste Ellissalde has not been incorporated into the RWC French XV, he is used to play with Frédéric Michalack and having two players able to play either Fly-half or Half-scrum could be a great advantage. Whatever his position on the field he is far better than Dimitri Yachvili.

Quote:

The penalty kick was weird. Geting a lineout at 5 meters would have been much better in my opinion. I believe in almost everyone's opinion. Maybe Merceron wanted to show he could score points in-match?

The penalty was whistled just after a very long sequence of play as far as I remember, I think that Merceron also kicked in order to manage a pause for the forwards.

finbar · September 7, 2003, 08:56

Quote:

Originally posted by LDiCesare
25 others, Yachvili.

Quote:

The penalty kick was weird. Geting a lineout at 5 meters would have been much better in my opinion. I believe in almost everyone's opinion. Maybe Merceron wanted to show he could score points in-match?
The drop goal, on the other side, was not so bad, since it was unclear the French could attack from that ball and that position. They would have needed to regroup, create a new ruck or maul, and then redeploy the backs. Getting those points was not that bad an idea. And I like drop goals, too. They force the defense to consider an additional option.

In the context of the game - 30+ points behind - I thought the drop goal option was just as pointless as the penalty kick. England were obviously determined to keep them try-less. Why not go for the try regardless of how much more work it took? They had absolutely nothing to lose and tries would have been very important psychologically. I agree that drop goals can be useful in that they can force a defence to consider additional options, but it has less meaning when the defence is sitting on a 30+ lead. I suspect, unfortunately, that the England defence would consider both the penalty kick and drop goal victories for them.

Havak · September 7, 2003, 13:34

Well Clive used more than two subs - and only lack of finishing by certain 'girlies' prevented the second half being a masacre too.

Don't take too much comfort in the concept of a two man team.

The reason I have popped in - to let Finbar know that Healey missed the cut for the squad.

Cue Finbar and lots of

icons?

spartak · September 7, 2003, 14:28

The only thing that worries me is that he picked Catt as well

finbar · September 7, 2003, 19:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Havak
Well Clive used more than two subs - and only lack of finishing by certain 'girlies' prevented the second half being a masacre too.

Don't take too much comfort in the concept of a two man team.

Yeah, go on, deprive me of one of the few straws I have left to clutch at!

Quote:

The reason I have popped in - to let Finbar know that Healey missed the cut for the squad.

Cue Finbar and lots of

icons?

I heard the news on the BBC World Service at 4am via the Walkman plugged into my ear. Mrs finbar thought I'd won Lotto.

But I assume they picked Catt in order to boost the squad's average age that little bit closer to senior citizenship.

Andydog · September 8, 2003, 05:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Caligastia
Tamerlin - I agree with your points regarding slack refereeing, and I understand your reluctance to accept the SH style, but IMO both styles are legitimate and will at some point be combined more fully as soon as the refereeing problem is sorted out. It's not only the SH that builds it's style around what it can get away with, the NH also pushes the limits - only in different areas. Rugby Union cannot continue with inconsistent refereeing forever. For the sport to grow there must be a clear understanding of the game. I'm optimistic that the IRB will eventually realize this.

Yup, very well put. Has there not already been an attempt to highlight the problems of inconsistent refereeing to the IRB? You'd think they'd be aware of the problem and how it is adversely affecting the game. I hope that 'politics' isn't (or won’t) get in the way of setting a sensible policy.

Tamerlin · September 8, 2003, 05:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Andydog
I hope that 'politics' isn't (or won’t) get in the way of setting a sensible policy.

Unfortunately, you can bet on the contrary.

finbar · September 8, 2003, 09:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Andydog
You'd think they'd be aware of the problem and how it is adversely affecting the game.

Havak and I sort of came to the conclusion a while ago that the refs work to IRB directives. Earlier this season, the tackler rolling away was all the go. They were dynamite on it. Now, while still policed, the refs are nowhere near as trigger-happy as they were.

I'm still of the view that the speed of the modern game and the fitness and athleticism of the modern players make life just about impossible for a single ref. I recall either Tamerlin or LDiCesares reporting that two refs were tried in a French comp, but nothing came of it for many and varied reasons. Australian Rules football - which these days resembles basketball more than any sort of football - now uses three umpires.

Caligastia · September 8, 2003, 10:20

You could have two referees in a rugby game, one on the field and one off. The one off the field could have control of numerous cameras and could be in constant contact with the referee on the field. This way the referee with the cameras could watch the areas that the referee on the field is unable to. I think it could work if properly planned.

Andydog · September 8, 2003, 10:21

Quote:

Havak and I sort of came to the conclusion a while ago that the refs work to IRB directives.

If refs work to IRB directives then why would there be one set of directives for the SH and another for the NH refs?

You make an interesting point about the speed of the modern game making it more difficult to police. Perhaps make more use of touch judges? For example, give the touch judges the priority call on, say, forward passes. Perhaps there is a way to make more use of TV refs.

Andydog · September 8, 2003, 10:30

Ahh, just saw that Caligastia slipped a suggestion in there about TV refs. I think that could work, provided that today's ref can accept a lot of his power being stripped.

Caligastia · September 8, 2003, 10:52

It would require a lot of cooperation between the two refs...

Tamerlin · September 8, 2003, 10:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Andydog
If refs work to IRB directives then why would there be one set of directives for the SH and another for the NH refs?

The problem is that the NH referees are currently changing their way to police a game according to the IRB's directives based on Murdoch's... euh, no, sorry... on the Rugby played in the SH. But the games they are policing in the NH are different as they are still closer to the spirit of the original Rugby game (you know, scrums, mauls... etc). The SH referees are used to rule games like this when the NH referees must learn a different way of policing a game.

Quote:

You make an interesting point about the speed of the modern game making it more difficult to police. Perhaps make more use of touch judges?

The two we know today are already useless as it is well known they are blind. Adding more of them won't be very useful if they share the same flaws.

Quote:

For example, give the touch judges the priority call on, say, forward passes. Perhaps there is a way to make more use of TV refs.

This is a possibility, we could also imagine two referees on the field, each in charge of a different aspect of the game. Imagine a scrum (it should not be too difficult they have not yet disappeared in the SH), the behavior of the forwards could be very different with a referee looking for a foul under the scrum while the backs would think twice before putting themselves off-side with the other referee watching for them.

This was tested a few years ago during a Junior RWC in France and the results were great: game time doubled and number of fouls halved.

finbar · September 8, 2003, 20:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Andydog
If refs work to IRB directives then why would there be one set of directives for the SH and another for the NH refs?

The differences are disappearing. As Tamerlin observes in his typically unbiased, objective way.

Quote:

You make an interesting point about the speed of the modern game making it more difficult to police. Perhaps make more use of touch judges? For example, give the touch judges the priority call on, say, forward passes. Perhaps there is a way to make more use of TV refs.

But it's already the touchies' job to watch for things like forward passes. I think the touchies have the same problem as the refs - the speed of the modern game can leave them behind. In fact, having four touchies - each controlling a quarter - isn't a bad idea. Much easier to implement than a second ref, and, theoretically, it would guarantee two touchies always up with the play, ready to monitor forward passes and even offside.

I have a real problem with more use of TV refs. The more they're involved, the more interruptions to the game. I think their involvement in deciding on problematic tries is fine, but I'd prefer it left at that.

finbar · September 8, 2003, 20:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Tamerlin
The problem is that the NH referees are currently changing their way to police a game according to the IRB's directives based on Murdoch's... euh, no, sorry... on the Rugby played in the SH. But the games they are policing in the NH are different as they are still closer to the spirit of the original Rugby game (you know, scrums, mauls... etc). The SH referees are used to rule games like this when the NH referees must learn a different way of policing a game.

Sorry. What's actually happening at the moment is that no ref - regardless of his hemisphere - is policing things like offside properly.

Quote:

This was tested a few years ago during a Junior RWC in France and the results were great: game time doubled and number of fouls halved.

Ah, so it was you who reported that experiment. Frankly, I think it will eventually happen. With modern training methods and fitness levels, the game can only get faster.

Tamerlin · September 8, 2003, 22:01

Quote:

Originally posted by finbar
The differences are disappearing. As Tamerlin observes in his typically unbiased, objective way.

Impartiality is my trademark.

Quote:

Ah, so it was you who reported that experiment.

Yep!

Quote:

Frankly, I think it will eventually happen. With modern training methods and fitness levels, the game can only get faster.

I hope it myself...

st_swithin · September 8, 2003, 22:03

Here come the judge...

Caligastia · September 8, 2003, 22:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Tamerlin

Impartiality is my trademark.

finbar · September 8, 2003, 22:09

Hey, Tamerlin, I made a reasonably classic Daube last night. Well, we had it last night, but it took 24 hours to prepare. Beef cheeks marinated in a litre of red wine and 500ml of port with aromatic vegetables and herbs for 24 hours. Drain the cheeks, dredge them in flour, brown them and put them into an ovenproof dish. Fry the marinated armomatic vegies, add them to the browned cheeks. Reduce the litre and a half of red wine and port to a syrup, add it to the browned cheeks and vegies. Cover with veal stock, seal the lid on tightly, and put the dish in a 250F oven for 4 hours.

The meat just about melts. Truly sensational!

Tamerlin · September 8, 2003, 22:13

Quote:

Originally posted by finbar
Hey, Tamerlin, I made a reasonably classic Daube last night. Well, we had it last night, but it took 24 hours to prepare. Beef cheeks marinated in a litre of red wine and 500ml of port with aromatic vegetables and herbs for 24 hours. Drain the cheeks, dredge them in flour, brown them and put them into an ovenproof dish. Fry the marinated armomatic vegies, add them to the browned cheeks. Reduce the litre and a half of red wine and port to a syrup, add it to the browned cheeks and vegies. Cover with veal stock and put the dish in a 250F oven for 4 hours.

The meat just about melts. Truly sensational!

Finbar, you are proving everyday that there is at least one educated man in the Southern Hemisphere.

Caligastia, of course I am impartial, I have no involvement in SH Rugby... that which can not be said about many other posters in this thread.

Caligastia · September 8, 2003, 22:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Caligastia, of course I am impartial, I have no involvement in SH Rugby... that which can not be said about many other posters in this thread.

No involvement in SH rugby - a mandatory prerequisite for rugby impartiality....

finbar · September 9, 2003, 01:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Tamerlin

Finbar, you are proving everyday that there is at least one educated man in the Southern Hemisphere.

Why do you think I'm trying to escape from this sh*thole of a country!

Andydog · September 9, 2003, 04:42

Hey Tamerlin, I made a fantastic barbeque last night. Cut a 44 gallon drum in half and plonked a Safeways shopping trolley on top of it. Smashed up half the back fence and there's your charcoal. Whacked on the bangers, chops, steaks and mushies, hooked into the Grolsh, and washed the lot down with a few Tullamore Dews.

I'll wager you won't find recipe that in any of your French cooking books.

ravagon · September 9, 2003, 04:58

Now that sounds like my sort of gourmet cooking - particularly wrt ease and time of preparation.

Tamerlin · September 9, 2003, 07:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Andydog
Hey Tamerlin, I made a fantastic barbeque last night. Cut a 44 gallon drum in half and plonked a Safeways shopping trolley on top of it. Smashed up half the back fence and there's your charcoal. Whacked on the bangers, chops, steaks and mushies, hooked into the Grolsh, and washed the lot down with a few Tullamore Dews.

I'll wager you won't find recipe that in any of your French cooking books.

I already knew that there could be only one educated man in the whole Southern Hemisphere.

Ravagon, it's not Friday!