Rugby - See You In Ten! - Page 8

Andydog · August 25, 2003, 03:35

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We are pretty used to seeing Wilko underestimated by the SH or written off as a kicker only (funny given Mehrts was never anything else?). I’m surprised a Kiwi makes the mistake now though – try re-watching the November game and watch as he chips your defensive line when Blair drifted – tell me Spencer has better vision or skill than that and I’ll be calling you a big fibber. :P

Don't get me wrong mate, I'm not for a second writing off Wilko as a kicker only. I agree he has better vision than Carlos, he is also better on defence when just last week Carlos let George Smith run inside him to break the line in the first half.

I was more comparing the two and was coming from what Finbar summed up very nicely - Carlos is gifted and is capable of breaking through and creating all sorts of opportunities. The conditions will suit him for this but Wilko will be more inclined to kick me thinks. Don't for a second take you eye off Spencer, my gut says he will develop into one of the greats, so long as his head lets him.

Anyway Havak is away at the moment so bugger him, let's really start winding things up.

The difference between English rugby and NZ rugby is that NZ have always been a winning team and are constantly at or near the top of world rugby like it or not. And imho they play a far more exciting brand of rugby and score plenty of tries, in fact in four games they have scored more tries than England has in their last 10 or so. If England wins when it really counts they will get respect as a consistent rugby power. I am currently living in London and see too much pressure put on the England team to win this WC, and I can also see them playing beneath themselves.

The lesson that needs to be learned is to hope for the best but expect the worst. I won't be surprised if neither England nor the ABs wins the cup. I will be supporting SA if that’s the case.

Andydog · August 25, 2003, 03:40

Mitchell names the squad for the Cup today - I'm picking Andrew Merhtens will make it - he had a good NPC game on the weekend. I'm also picking Maling will keep Maxwell out and although they will take another hooker I don't think Oliver will be the one. Hard to pick who will be the extra loose forward.

Tamerlin · August 25, 2003, 09:44

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Originally posted by NeoStar
Ummm did anyone have the foresight to all their tickets last year? This latest round was a farce - I only managed to grab a couple to Argentina vs Romania

(I know they were once good but now its flogging after flogging). I really should have got more last year I think.

Anyone really benefit from last week?

As far as I am concerned Australia is too far away and too costly for me at this time.

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And another thing, Australia is no doubt in a slump of sorts but am I right in thinking they should be alright until the potential encounter with NZ in the semi finals? Even then...

The Wallabies should have won their last game, a good referee should have sanctionned the All Blacks scrum and should have given at least a penalty try.

The Australian players showed some good things though the most spectacular actions (which does not mean most interesting) came from the AB. Larkham still needs to recover but also displayed some promising things. The main problem of this team seems to be Georges Gregan who was never close to its good level: slow, lack of attacking and defensive pressure, lack of creativity, mediocre choices... very disappointing for a player that was a real pleasure to watch at these last years.

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I suppose we'll see how much of a plus the home advantage gives them. Finbar, you're good at analysing their ups and downs, despite the bashing in the media (and to the Kiwis not long ago

)they can regroup, can't they?

Very unpredictable, IMO they will struggle at the beginning of the competition (a bit like France four years ago) and will improve steadily until the final phases... provided Georges Gregan is raising his level.

finbar · August 26, 2003, 00:03

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Originally posted by NeoStar
And another thing, Australia is no doubt in a slump of sorts but am I right in thinking they should be alright until the potential encounter with NZ in the semi finals? Even then...well, I suppose we'll see how much of a plus the home advantage gives them. Finbar, you're good at analysing their ups and downs, despite the bashing in the media (and to the Kiwis not long ago

)they can regroup, can't they?

With luck, we'll make the semi-finals, but I wouldn't count on it.

1. Our front row isn't good enough to take on the top front rows.

2. We haven't settled on a partner for Giffen in the second row. Vickerman is strong in lineouts, Sharpe is more effective around the ground. Put the two in a blender, freeze the result, you would end up with Giffen's ideal partner.

3. George Smith, while improving as a blindside, is always going to be an openside playing blindside, costing us, amongst other things, someone with the clout to take the ball up, and a bona fide lineout-jumping option.

4. For whatever reason, our talented backline isn't being given an ounce of an opportunity, with the ball constantly being hit up, straight into the opposition defence, instead of worked outside to the backs. As one wit observed in the local media - "Why did Eddie Jones pay the backline's airfares to New Zealand recently if he wasn't going to use them?".

finbar · August 26, 2003, 00:08

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Originally posted by Andydog
Don't get me wrong mate, I'm not for a second writing off Wilko as a kicker only. I agree he has better vision than Carlos, he is also better on defence when just last week Carlos let George Smith run inside him to break the line in the first half.

I was more comparing the two and was coming from what Finbar summed up very nicely - Carlos is gifted and is capable of breaking through and creating all sorts of opportunities. The conditions will suit him for this but Wilko will be more inclined to kick me thinks. Don't for a second take you eye off Spencer, my gut says he will develop into one of the greats, so long as his head lets him.

IMHO, they wear the same number on their backs, and that's the end of the similarity. They are entirely different players. The fact is, Wilkinson has produced the goods at the highest level over a longer period than Carlos has. Only time will tell us how they rank against each other.

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Anyway Havak is away at the moment so bugger him, let's really start winding things up.

I like this man's style!

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I am currently living in London and see too much pressure put on the England team to win this WC, and I can also see them playing beneath themselves.

I think that bothers Havak a bit, too. He's made more than one reference to their capacity for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Look at their cricket team.

finbar · August 26, 2003, 00:11

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Originally posted by Andydog
Mitchell names the squad for the Cup today - I'm picking Andrew Merhtens will make it - he had a good NPC game on the weekend. I'm also picking Maling will keep Maxwell out and although they will take another hooker I don't think Oliver will be the one. Hard to pick who will be the extra loose forward.

No Mehrtens, no Cullen, no Jonah, no Randell, et al. Entirely unsurprising. The only absence of that lot I really question is Randell, but I've banged on about that before.

Mitchell's choice of locks bothers me, but I've also banged on about that before, too. The bottom line is Mitchell has made his decision, and now has to live with it.

finbar · August 26, 2003, 00:20

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Originally posted by Tamerlin

As far as I am concerned Australia is too far away and too costly for me at this time.

Hitchhike here! I've got a spare room for you!

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The Wallabies should have won their last game, a good referee should have sanctionned the All Blacks scrum and should have given at least a penalty try.

The Australian players showed some good things though the most spectacular actions (which does not mean most interesting) came from the AB. Larkham still needs to recover but also displayed some promising things. The main problem of this team seems to be Georges Gregan who was never close to its good level: slow, lack of attacking and defensive pressure, lack of creativity, mediocre choices... very disappointing for a player that was a real pleasure to watch at these last years.

The point is, mon ami, they could have won it, regardless of the ref, but didn't. They had enough of the ball in enough good positions in the second half but weren't good enough. They completely ignored any option that included their backline. They didn't win, and didn't deserve to. The only question is whether they will learn anything from it. The fact that they've done the same thing pretty constantly this season leads me to think they won't.

Andydog · August 26, 2003, 09:22

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I think that bothers Havak a bit, too. He's made more than one reference to their capacity for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Look at their cricket team.

Aye, I saw a bit of this weekend's cricket game. SA were always going to win with the sort of attitude they took to the field this weekend. You could see their heads were determined and they played as a unit. It's always nice to see 3 slips racing each other for a ball running down to third man.

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No Mehrtens, no Cullen, no Jonah, no Randell, et al. Entirely unsurprising. The only absence of that lot I really question is Randell, but I've banged on about that before.

I thought Merhts had a shot, but oh well. He is after all a proven goal kicker, scoring close to 1000 points, and we all know how Spencer is lacking in that department. I suppose if you put Merhts back in there you are going to change the entire patterns of the backline and render such players as Howlett and Rocko useless.

finbar · August 26, 2003, 19:15

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Originally posted by Andydog
Aye, I saw a bit of this weekend's cricket game. SA were always going to win with the sort of attitude they took to the field this weekend. You could see their heads were determined and they played as a unit. It's always nice to see 3 slips racing each other for a ball running down to third man.

I think you nail it rather well. The Boks were more hard-headed. The Poms still look like what they are - the soft product of a largely second-rate domestic competition. Splitting the comp in two has done nothing. There are still too many teams, meaning too many players making up the numbers, meaning the standard isn't competitive enough. That's the beauty of our domestic Sheffield Shield comp - six teams, competition for spots in the teams is ferocious, the ability to perform under pressure is paramount.

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I thought Merhts had a shot, but oh well. He is after all a proven goal kicker, scoring close to 1000 points, and we all know how Spencer is lacking in that department. I suppose if you put Merhts back in there you are going to change the entire patterns of the backline and render such players as Howlett and Rocko useless.

I don't think they'd quite be rendered useless, but I know what you mean. As I observed once before, Mitchell has gambled, chosing Carlos' capacity for inspirational play but dodgy goal kicking in front of Mehrtens' solid, more predictable style and immaculate goal kicking. If Carlos' goal kicking costs them in a vital match, Mitchell will suffer the consequences.

What's interesting, though, is how Mitchell has recast the team. Last season the ABs were basically the Crusaders in personnel and style; this season they're the Blues in style if not personnel. A result of following the form, I suppose

finbar · August 28, 2003, 08:05

One of the Bok players - Kronje, now there's a name to conjure with - booted out of the WRC squad because he wouldn't room with a black player. Old habits die hard over there.

Tamerlin · August 28, 2003, 20:33

Here are the players of this week's France - Angleterre test match:

THE GOODS,

France:

15 Nicolas Brusque (Biarritz Olympique)
14 Aurelien Rougerie (Association Sportive Montferrandaise)
13 Yannick Jauzion (Stade Toulousain)
12 Damien Traille (Section Paloise)
11 Christophe Dominici (Stade Français)
10 Frederick Michalak (Stade Toulousain)
9 Fabien Galthie (Stade Français, capt)
8 Imanol Harinordoquy (Section Paloise)
7 Olivier Magne (Association Sportive Montferrandaise)
6 Serge Betsen (Biarritz Olympique)
5 Jerome Thion (Biarritz Olympique)
4 Fabien Pelous (Stade Toulousain)
3 Sylvain Marconnet (Stade Francais)
2 Yannick Bru (Stade Toulousain)
1 Jean-Jacques Crenca (Sporting Union Agenais)

Replacements: 16 Raphael Ibanez (Saracens/Eng), 17 Olivier Milloud (Bourgoin), 18 David Auradou (Stade Francais), 19 Sebastian Chabal (Bourgoin), 20 Patrick Tabacco (Stade Francais), 21 Xavier Garbajosa (Stade Toulousain), 22 Brian Liebenberg (Stade Français)

THE BADS

England:

Balshaw
Lewsey
Smith
Tindall
Cohen
Grayson (fly half)
Healey (scrum half)
Moody
Sanderson
Corry
Grewcock
Borthwick
White
West (cap)
Rowntree

Replacements: Thompson, Leonard, Shaw, Hazell, Gomarsall, Walder, Noon

AND THE UGLIES

Referee: Mark Lawrence (South Africa)
Touch judges: Dave McHugh, Simon McDowell (both Ireland)
Assessor: Tom Aplin (Ireland)
Television Match Official: Hugh Watkins (Wales)

Tamerlin · August 28, 2003, 20:38

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Originally posted by finbar
Hitchhike here! I've got a spare room for you!

Thanks for the invitation but... boats don't take hitchikers.

WHAT THE MEAN RATS THEY ARE!

finbar · August 28, 2003, 21:22

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Originally posted by Tamerlin
AND THE UGLIES

Referee: Mark Lawrence (South Africa)
Touch judges: Dave McHugh, Simon McDowell (both Ireland)
Assessor: Tom Aplin (Ireland)
Television Match Official: Hugh Watkins (Wales)

Mark Lawrence is the ref who set the record for cards in a recent Currie Cup match - six, I think. So there will be no funny business!

finbar · August 28, 2003, 21:23

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Originally posted by Tamerlin

Thanks for the invitation but... boats don't take hitchikers.

They do so! They're called stowaways!

st_swithin · August 28, 2003, 23:35

Or steerage rats. Same thing, right?

ravagon · August 28, 2003, 23:48

I'm tempted to strongly back Les Bleus tomorrow but with Havak not around that would be totally wasted.

For once it seems that good sense has prevailed in the upper echelon of the IRB.
Yes indeed, that does mean that the public at large will not, in fact, be subjected to the performance of such abominations as "Waltzing Matilda".

http://www.planetrugby.com/LATEST_NE...ry_30284.shtml

The haka, of course is still in. I have no idea about the Boks Zulu war dance though. Hopefully it will remain.

finbar · August 29, 2003, 00:08

Oh, look out. It's Friday again.

Has anyone ever heard anything as idiotic as trying to stop them singing the song? I think singing it's puke-making, m'self, but the IRB has now guaranteed the crowd will sing it, even without someone leading them with a guitar.

ravagon · August 29, 2003, 00:43

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Originally posted by finbar
Oh, look out. It's Friday again.

Why so it is. Entirely coincidental of course.

I doubt the intent was to actually prevent the crowd from singing, rather just to limit the extent to which every individual Tom, **** and Harry National Union can try and one-up every other. If every team had a cultural folk song in addition to the national anthem before the start of every match it would start to get a little ... well, now they won't anyway.
The Welsh are about the only crowd I can think of able to carry a tune without being led and, um, not to be overly critical but they need all the help they can get.

Andydog · August 29, 2003, 05:52

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As I observed once before, Mitchell has gambled, chosing Carlos' capacity for inspirational play but dodgy goal kicking in front of Mehrtens' solid, more predictable style and immaculate goal kicking. If Carlos' goal kicking costs them in a vital match, Mitchell will suffer the consequences.

I agree with you big fella. I would have thought that Mitchell could have used Mehrts to give the ABs another game plan - we could then play a territory game and a running game. Against England's forwards I'd much rather have Merhts kicking for territory, not to mention the sticks for those vital penalties. And should Spencer get injured, what then? Mauger may be able to do it, who knows.

Mitchell seems to want players who he can control totally - and it appears that Mehrts is too much of an individual for him. Robbie Deans hasn't started him much for Canterbury this season either. He obviously doesn't fit into Mitchell's plan but it's still hard to see how there isn't room for him in the 30 man squad.

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One of the Bok players - Kronje, now there's a name to conjure with - booted out of the WRC squad because he wouldn't room with a black player. Old habits die hard over there.

What a stupid tw*t he is. I've read some reports that all this was hushed up by Straeuli & Co for ages, and other reports that this has caused a deep rift within the team. It's a shame because it's the last thing SA needed at the moment, It's an embarrassment for the team and an embarrassment for SA.

Andydog · August 29, 2003, 06:49

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I doubt the intent was to actually prevent the crowd from singing, rather just to limit the extent to which every individual Tom, **** and Harry National Union can try and one-up every other.

he he he, I can just imagine the Aussies, not to be out done by the Kiwis, calling up Rolf complete with his saw or wobble board or fence or whatever the hell he uses to lead a full on assault of Waltzing Matilda vs the Haka in the semi. How's that for a clash of cultures?

Havak · August 29, 2003, 06:52

Not around much - but not totally missing. First time i have found the site up however.

I'm glad AndyDog added the "IMO" part to his outrageous claim that NZ play better rugby though.

An England second XV just destroyed Wales in their own country (not the confortable partisan surroundings NZ enjoyed in June) and anyone who actually saw the performance of our second string forwards is fearing for the Kiwi pack against such strength in depth.

It's a must win game for France tomorrow as there are third line elements in the 'BADS'. France simpy have to win and win well or it's bye bye RWC chances.

Tamerlin · August 29, 2003, 07:38

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Originally posted by finbar

They do so! They're called stowaways!

Yes I know but I have heard that there are only low passage tickets with very bad accomodations and harsh to deal with captains...

I think the RWC can wait until 2007...

Tamerlin · August 29, 2003, 07:41

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Originally posted by ravagon
The Welsh are about the only crowd I can think of able to carry a tune without being led and, um, not to be overly critical but they need all the help they can get.

You forgot the Irish... and the English.

Tamerlin · August 29, 2003, 07:51

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Originally posted by Havak
It's a must win game for France tomorrow as there are third line elements in the 'BADS'. France simpy have to win and win well or it's bye bye RWC chances.

Hi, Havak! Already back to work!!!!

My two cents of a € opinion: I don't think they will beat England tomorrow, they are not ready at all. IMO again, this will not be a good game to watch as the French players will be mishandling the ball most of the times.

I only hope Mr Lawrence won't beat its own record...

Havak · August 29, 2003, 09:27

Accessing it from home Tamerlin - no work for Havak until Monday.

It's a strong side you have picked - no easy job for us up front. Given that we are fielding very much an under strength side I feel we will be lucky to take this one even if the Fench are rusty.

Plus we have a rusty scrum half (healey) and a veteran Stand off (Grayson) from the Mehrts mould more than the Spencer one - good boot but not sure about the rest of his game.

Plenty of Tigers taking part though - including the entire front row and both flankers as well as scrummy and the outside centre.

LDiCesare · August 29, 2003, 14:46

It will be an interesting game to watch tomorrow, but in fact, France will be under a lot of pressure. The team is about the best we can get today, so they expect to win, whereas many English players aren't the top guns (for instance there isn't a certain lock playing, and the 9 and 10 aren't England first choices) and thus will try to show the best game they can in order to prove they should be in the first team and in Australia.

finbar · August 29, 2003, 20:36

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Originally posted by Andydog
I would have thought that Mitchell could have used Mehrts to give the ABs another game plan - we could then play a territory game and a running game. Against England's forwards I'd much rather have Merhts kicking for territory, not to mention the sticks for those vital penalties. And should Spencer get injured, what then? Mauger may be able to do it, who knows.

Yes, therein lies the big weakness, I fear. The ABs have only one game plan, as devastating as it can be when it works.

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Mitchell seems to want players who he can control totally - and it appears that Mehrts is too much of an individual for him. Robbie Deans hasn't started him much for Canterbury this season either. He obviously doesn't fit into Mitchell's plan but it's still hard to see how there isn't room for him in the 30 man squad.

Mehrtens has fallen out with Deans, over what I'm not sure.

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What a stupid tw*t he is. I've read some reports that all this was hushed up by Straeuli & Co for ages, and other reports that this has caused a deep rift within the team. It's a shame because it's the last thing SA needed at the moment, It's an embarrassment for the team and an embarrassment for SA.

finbar · August 29, 2003, 20:38

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Originally posted by Tamerlin

Yes I know but I have heard that there are only low passage tickets with very bad accomodations and harsh to deal with captains...

*Fearless Napoleon rolls over in his grave*

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I think the RWC can wait until 2007...

Still, I'm hoping to get over there later in the year. Mrs finbar won't make it because she has a TV movie to produce from October onwards.

finbar · August 29, 2003, 20:42

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Originally posted by Havak
Not around much - but not totally missing. First time i have found the site up however.

They've added some RAM to the server, apparently. Not before time.

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I'm glad AndyDog added the "IMO" part to his outrageous claim that NZ play better rugby though.

The bait that lured you back!

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It's a must win game for France tomorrow as there are third line elements in the 'BADS'. France simpy have to win and win well or it's bye bye RWC chances.

Twaddle.

Alexander's Horse · August 29, 2003, 21:54

The Waltzing Matilda thing is a crude plot to reclaim a Scottish tune.