Early research for builders/hybrids at higher difficulty levels

Gufnork · August 7, 2003, 05:00

What do you research. I generally go for Pottery as first tech (unless I feel I can get it quickly from neighbours), then Mysticism, both with 100% research. After that I drop my research down to minimum and go for Polytheism. The reason is that Polytheism is a very expensive tech that you're almost guaranteed to get first, despite it taking 40 turns. When I have it I can trade all the techs the AI has researched, if I had the luck to encounter enough civilizations. Since I can't compete with the comp in tech race, this is my way of keeping up until I'm done REXing and start preparing for war with knights or cavalry, depending on settings.

Does anyone have a better idea?

Harovan · August 7, 2003, 05:18

I usually research Pottery (unless I'm expansionist) at 100% as well.

If I met at least one civ during research, I set my research to zero afterwards (not even 10%) and whore myself through the ancient age. Works mostly a charm, up to emperor. At the end of the ancient age I'm usually among the tech leaders and still the richest civ of all.

If I did not meet a civ, I may be on an island. So I continue a beeline for Map Making (Alphabet next), usually at 100% too, even if it still lasts 40 turns. This number will eventually go down with city growth and roads built. Even if I meet a neighbor by then, I continue research at 100%, until I can trade for Alphabet. I'll get a discount for the research done, so the money isn't entirely lost.

As soon as I have contact and at least Writing, I make the purchase of communications a priority over advances, because it makes purchasing techs cheaper.

Vlado · August 7, 2003, 06:50

I beeline for Litterature and try as hard as I can for the GL. Mindyou, my beeline is going for these tech straight on with 10-20% (eg minimum for the 40 turns)...

Arrian · August 7, 2003, 08:43

I will usually do pottery @ 100%, and then, depending on whom I've met (or if I've not met anyone), I will decide which techs to research so that I get techs the AI will probably not have, allowing me to trade mine for theirs (often this means polytheism for CoL/Philo, but sometimes it's mathematics instead).

I make a point of trading masonry away to everyone ASAP (if I have it), in the hopes that one of my neighbors will build the pyramids for me. Of course, that's because I fully intend to conquer them, so I'm not a builder/hybrid, really.

-Arrian

Brundlefly · August 7, 2003, 08:53

Being isolated on an island at higher difficulty levels (Emperor and above) is a big disadvantage. That means you have to research Mapmaking on your own, build galleys and go out and find the others. By the time you do that the others are so far ahead of you in tech and power, you might as well start over.

The Pottery idea is good as a first tech to research. I had always just gone to 10% science right from the start, but your idea is better.

Fatwreck · August 7, 2003, 11:51

I always go for litterature... if you are a commerical civ you´re guaranteed to get writing and litrerature first... at least on emperor

joncnunn · August 7, 2003, 12:41

On Emperor:

If Commerical, I'll reseach Writing first at the minimum that gets 1 breaker towards it for the 40 turns. Even this slow, it often results is being the first to get it because it's a low AI priority.

Yeah, if non-expanionist, 100% to Pottery is often a good idea.

If Expanionist (and so you have Pottery) and non-commerical (so you can't reserach Writing first), then even the one beaker with 10% may be a waste for the first tech if you have contact with an AI. But you are likely to get at least one free tech from a goody huts as Expanionist, I recomend to check with the AIs to buy all techs if affordable (starting with the cheapest) right before poping a hut which should it result in a tech could be sold or at the very least getting a more expensive tech than you otherwise would have.

Mountain Sage · August 8, 2003, 03:59

I usually go stright for Writing at max. speed (40 turns), since I already have Alphabet. Then it's Literature for the GLibrary.
If I go for the GLighthouse, I hope to get Pottery from a hut, or trade it with Alphabet, or even research it myself (by then you'l need only 10-15 turns).
Once I got the GLibrary, I beeline for Republic.

Theseus · August 8, 2003, 16:14

Wow, you 100% Pottery guys are crazy!!

20% until the first cultural expansion, then 10%... research choice varies DRAMATICALLY by situation, although I will almost always go after a second level tech.

TheArsenal · August 8, 2003, 17:01

I rarely start with a Civ that starts with Alphabet (China, Egypt, Arabia), and the Great Library is my must have wonder. So it is: Alphabet - Writing - Literature. Playing Regent level allows you to still get to Literature first despite the Alphabet deficit/handicap.

Once the GLibrary is up and running, I am almost always "gifted" Mathematics sometimes Map Making and head for straight to Republic. I always research it because I have never had the GL "give" me Republic in any acceptable time frame.

BRC · August 9, 2003, 20:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Wow, you 100% Pottery guys are crazy!!

That's pretty much what I do, starting with standard maps. Graneries are huge.

Arrian · August 11, 2003, 09:04

It's research for builders/hybrids, Theseus.

In my current game, I didn't research pottery. Nope, as I recall, I went bronze working, the wheel, iron working, writing... I think I beat pottery out of the Iroquois.

I didn't need the early granary. I am Rome (again. I've really gotten to like those guys), and my glorious archers provided me with the biggest damn granary you ever saw.

But I don't think my playstyle counts as "builder/hybrid," do you?

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · August 11, 2003, 10:00

I would like to note that I played a game this weekend (as Korea), researched pottery, right off the bat, at 80/90%, and then cut back to 10% and researched writing. The results were spectacular. Sure, my REXing wasn't terribly impressive, but it was good enough, and I saved so much money that when I felt confident to upgrade my vet warriors to swordsmen, I had 40 vet swordsmen. Bye bye neighbors!

I do have a question, though, and it's gonna sound pretty damn stupid to all y'all. But I have to ask it anyways.

Why did Writing take 40 turns to learn, regardless of whether I researched at 10% or 100%? (Me so stupid, me never noticed this before. Me going to change basic Civ game play style now.)

Arrian · August 11, 2003, 10:19

There is a cap on the maximum time it can take you to research a tech. That cap is set at 40 turns (there is also a cap on the other end - 4 turns).

Therefore, so long as you put 1 "beaker" toward science per turn, you can get a tech in 40 turns. If the tech is sufficiently expensive and your civ is small (early game), you may not be able to muster enough beakers to research the tech any faster. Therefore, spending more than 10% science on it is a waste of cash.

Regarding your REXing, the beauty of that early granary is that it doesn't just help your early expansion. It can also help terrain development (more workers), and the boosted growth rate means that your capitol will blast up to 12pop quickly once you quit pumping settlers. That's more shields & commerce... anyway, the granary pays for itself many times over.

(But nothin' beats the Pyramids. Thank you, "Caesar's Yeomen" for providing them in ~1000bc.

)

40 swords, eh? Excellent, grasshopper. Any horsies, or did you go pure sword?

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · August 11, 2003, 10:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian

40 swords, eh? Excellent, grasshopper. Any horsies, or did you go pure sword?

-Arrian

I built 4 horses and 36(!) sword, if I recall correctly, before marching on Tientsin. From thence forth, I built only horses. I lost probably 10 swordsmen, but those things were useless well into the late middle ages (as medival infantry). They did the bulk of the work, and the horses - normally my fave ancient unit - were largely useless this time, but that's just the RNG speaking.

The great thing about this force is that it pushed forward and HELD cities... I beat back waves of attackers and left my core cities building improvement-unit-improvement (with workers as needed)... I know I'd have to build more units on a higher difficulty level but I think the war would probably pan out largely the same way.

Arrian · August 11, 2003, 11:10

Hmm, sounds like what I do as Rome. I build a large number of vet warriors (last game, ~25, which is a lot for a standard map), upgrade them to legionaries, add in a few of horsies (~5), and go kill. All unit production after that goes toward horsies... so eventually the horsies catch up to and pass the legionaries in numbers (usually around the time they become knights

).

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · August 11, 2003, 11:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
There is a cap on the maximum time it can take you to research a tech. That cap is set at 40 turns (there is also a cap on the other end - 4 turns).

Therefore, so long as you put 1 "beaker" toward science per turn, you can get a tech in 40 turns. If the tech is sufficiently expensive and your civ is small (early game), you may not be able to muster enough beakers to research the tech any faster. Therefore, spending more than 10% science on it is a waste of cash.

Still, this makes little sense to me. I had 2 or 3 cities, all on rivers, and sure, they were small, but shouldn't 100% research net me something more like Alphabet in 38 turns, not 40? I don't get why my income/deficit changes slightly due to tax adjustment, but my research at this level didn't change AT ALL.

I notice that, playing as commercial civs, I can boost the tech level to 90% or so and have significant increase in my research rate, in the early game...

Arrian · August 11, 2003, 11:21

On larger maps, the techs cost more (to adjust for the fact that you will have more cities and less corruption). So writing on a huge map is VERY pricey. 2-3 cities, probably with relatively low populations, just aren't gonna pump out enough commerce to get it in less than 40 turns.

Yahweh Sabaoth · August 11, 2003, 11:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
On larger maps, the techs cost more (to adjust for the fact that you will have more cities and less corruption). So writing on a huge map is VERY pricey. 2-3 cities, probably with relatively low populations, just aren't gonna pump out enough commerce to get it in less than 40 turns.

Huhn. Are all second-tier techs this pricey? How can I tell the "absolute price" of a tech?

Arrian · August 11, 2003, 12:08

I think you should be able to find out in the editor. IIRC, Writing is one of the most expensive 2nd-tier techs, perhaps THE most.

In the editor, the techs each have a value (1, 2, 3, 4, etc). You need to multiply that value by a certain number which currently escapes me for the total beakers. In fact, that multiplier varies based on map size, IIRC, so even if I did remember, I'd be remembing the numbers for a standard map. ALSO, bear in mind that above regent, the human player has another multiplier to deal with (Monarch = 10%, Emp = 20%, Deity = 40%?).

Anyway, you can deduce the beaker cost by moving the slider up & down and observing the change in time required to discover the tech.

-Arrian

joncnunn · August 11, 2003, 13:14

Also don't forget that the price is modifed by the precentage of civs that already have the tech.

Arrian · August 12, 2003, 08:28

It depends on whether or not you have contact with them, though. So the discount will only kick in once you meet a civ that has the tech in question (or a civ you already know acquires it).

-Arrian