..Re: Pirate/Borg/PUT trade deals of 2127

johndmuller · August 9, 2003, 18:46

I thought I'd make a separate thread to discuss the various facets of our proposed deals with the PUT and Borg which we hope will get us (and the Borg) to Industrial Auto in just a couple of years.

To review the current situation and proposed deals:

-At the beginning of the turn (our MY2127), we finished researching Progen Psych and began researching Ethical Calc

-During the current turn, Cap;n Hercules acquired Industrial Econ

-We currentlly have Industrial Econ and Planetary Nets and could switch (paying a modest penalty) to Industrial Auto (assuming it was offered), finishing it in 15 or so years.

-At the moment, the Borg are researching Industrial Base, and will finish on their second turn (their MY2129)

-We could give/trade the Borg Industrial Econ and they could then research Industrial Auto as their next tech when they finish Industrial Base. finishing Industrial Auto perhaps a few years sooner than we would (their research is not much better than ours)

---So much for the Straw Men; now for the good plan---

-If we can get Industrial Base from somewhere and give it to the Borg (so they can switch the tech they will finins in a few years) and also give them Industrial Econ (so they will have the necessary PreReq's for Industrial Auto), they will be in a position to research Industrial Auto and get it in just a few years.

-We believe that the PUT has Industrial Base (they have Industrial Econ and did not immediately deny having Industrial Base. We have proposed a trade with the PUT of our Doc:Flex for their Industrial Base.

- (as an aside) The PUT already have Planetary Nets and Industrial Econ (Ironically, I think they were offering it to us for Doc:Mobility) and could therefore be researching Industrial Auto soon, if not already. For some reason I am not privy to, I think that Cap'n Hercules believes that both the Drones and the Hive already have Industrial Auto.

-Roz definitely has Industrial Base, but tradewise she would be interested in acquiring Doc:Flex; salewise, she also has Biogenetics which we lack and might offer to sell us that first/instead; and finally tech-stealwise, our new PartyBoat is 15 (4 turns) away from her only known base and we would still have to get Biogenetics first to avoid stealing that by mistake (our tech thieves must be pretty dumb or pretty drunk).

----------------------------

Realistically, if we are to get to Ind Auto in the 2 or 3 year time frame we are shooting for, out best bet is to trade right now for Industrial Base from the PUT, arranging to get it our next turn (our 2128) and immediately giving it and the Indust Econ to the Borg (their 2129), who will be able to switch techs to (hopefully) Industrial Auto, which they would shortly receive (there is a contingency plan below for them not being offered IndAuto at first).

If we need to deal with the DataTechs instead of the PUT, we shoud probably arrange to get Biogenetics from the Borg, which we could have as early as our next turn (MY2128), and then hope to buy (or trade for Doc:Flex) the Industrial Base Tech from Roz (as that would be the only one of her techs we didn't have, it would remove the doubt as to which tech she would proffer). This plan would probably work, although dealing with the AI is not always dependable.

I'm porposing to basically level with the Borg as to our sources (regretably, due to our pact, they will be able to see for themselves that we have made contact with the PUT and unless they are dumber than our tech thieves, they will be able to figure out on their own what it is that we are organizing). We wouldn't necessarily have to say it out loud, but fessing up that we have human and AI sources for the techs we plan to provide and assuring them that we are not planning to give out the Industrial Auto to anyone else should be sufficient. They do seem to have an emotionally negative regard for the PUT, which could lead them to shy off a bit, but hopefully they will see the big advantage to be gained here if we can pull off this deal.

johndmuller · August 9, 2003, 19:08

Copies or links to some relevent messages:

Initial message to PUT here.

-Preliminary reply from Gen'l Tacitus of PUT here.

-----------------------------------------

Initial message to CyCon here.

Initial response of Maniac of the CyCon here.

(Cap'n Herc, if you can edit posts, feel free to add a copy of your correspondence with Maniac or anything else in here)

The following message hasn't been posted yet, it is the second reply from Maniac with his probing questions, etc.

Quote:

Reply2 from Maniac

Tech opportunity
Hello again Cuspidore and Captains,

quote:
(like if you were a Hive agent wanting to ruin opportunities for the CyCon)

That would be something: the CyCon Prime Function a Hive agent!

Anyway , I'm here with the promised questions and a few issues I'm quite confused about :

For instance you say you now have IndEco. But you also have PlaNets, the other prerequisite for IndAut. So didn't you have the option to research IndAut after you finished ProgPsych (probably, at your current research rate, postponing your discovery of IndAut by another two decades in the worst case )? And what tech did you choose then after you researched ProgPsych?

Further I'm wondering where you got IndEco. Are you trading with another AI or human faction? If so, please know that the CyCon are always interested in information about other factions, their commlinks etcetera. And why aren't you sure you can get IndBase? Are their certain things or techs another faction is demanding of you in exchange for IndBase, and which you are not sure you can provide?

I'm however most confused about something in Hercules' mail:

quote:
To insure that we given the best chance of acquiring Ind Base, it may be important that you send over Applied Physics or Biogenetics next turn

How is getting IndBase related with ApplPhys and Biogen? If I understand you correctly, your proposal is as following:
1) This turn MY 2127 you give us IndEcon pre-accepted.
2) Our turn MY 2128 we accept IndEcon and slow down our research, thereby losing a few credits and labs due to inefficiency.
3) Your turn MY 2128 you somehow receive IndBase and give it to us pre-accepted.
4) Our turn MY 2129 we accept IndBase and can hopefully directly choose IndAut. If not, have to we choose a tech we know you have, so you can again give it to us, hopefully allowing us to choose IndAut next time.
5) Once we have IndAut, we give it to you, together with any other tech or payment (which we could give earlier of course) you require for giving us Indbase, IndEcon and a possible third tech (eg ProgPsych) if we couldn't research IndAut right away.

Did I get that right?

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

__________________

I plan to more or less answer his questions according to the reasonably open policy I described at the end of the leadoff post in this thread (unless I hear otherwise from you'all real soon) since they will be able to figure out the possibilities for themselves anyway and if we try to hide things, they will probably imagine the worst of our dealings with the PUT.

I don't think that it is really necessary for us to send over IndEcon immediately, as long we do it before they are ready to switch (i,e, when we send IndBase), but it doesn't really matter to me either way if it will make them feel better (it might also increase the trade income one year earlier, although probably only for them, we may already be getting lined up to get the benefits); comments are welcome on that whether or not we care if we give IndEcon to them right away as part of the deal.

Hercules · August 9, 2003, 21:56

I agree.
re Ind Auto choice for us. we discovered Progenitor Pysch almost as we opened the turn and before I had acquired Ind Econ from Roze.

Re how we acquired Ind Econ. I think we can be open about contact with Roze and about the possibility of buying Ind Base from her provided the other techs ( Bio and poss Applied P) are not offered because we would already have them.

re Applied Physic (I haven't revisited the turn since saving, but I vaguely remember thinking she had it), that ' why I mentioned it.

Be as open as you can be but I think it would be better if they didn't know the PUT were in the picture.

Hercules · August 9, 2003, 22:10

You will also have received by now Cap'n FF's response which is supportive.

In the worst case where we have to acquire Ind base from Roze by purchase, we should advise CyCon we will have forked out 200 ecs for this transaction.

At this stage all The Borg need to know is we have the possibility of acquiring Ind Base. If they think that is from Roze, fine. The need for us to acquire, say Bio, helps with that persuasion.

Can I ask someone to check if Roze actually does have Applied Physics. I hate re-opening the turn in case something unexpected happens. If she doesn't that makes negotiation simpler.

Hercules · August 9, 2003, 22:16

re above: Cuspidore BB, I think you mean Doc Mob in some places rather than Doc Flex.

johndmuller · August 9, 2003, 22:19

I took the liberty of posting in the main Demo Forum turn thread that we might need more time due to being "busy" with "business" in "Miami". How could any one say no to that?

Roz doesn't have Applied Physics, just the Biogenics and Indust Base that we don't. (BTW they are reseaching Doc:Mobility, if she was smart she would trade us for that.)

The Borg can tell that we have met the PUT by looking in their faction profile of us which will show something like us having a truce with the PUT (like we see about them and the Believers). Since they will know that, I figure that they can interpret our actions as showing a deal of some kind with the PUT whether or not we have one, so we might as well fess up to a little deal instead of feeding their suspicions. I am planning to be somewhat vague anyway as it really is our private factional business. The idea is not to make it into a big deal in their minds when we actually aren't doing anything they would worry about. In fact, they might acually appreciate the possibility of the PUT enabling them (the Borgs) to get IndAuto without the PUT getting it themselves.

Hercules · August 9, 2003, 22:27

The other point to note is that the Borg at least are allowing for an extension to the 24hr play rule. I presume PUT will be agreeable to that. Each will be unaware of course of the others involvement.

Meanwhile the drones and hive will be wondering what's the delay.

I feel I should post something.:" Like normal service will be resumed as soon as possible" most assuming it is my computer problem. I will do that .

johndmuller · August 9, 2003, 22:28

Cap'n Herc, where do you mean Doc:Mob instead of Doc:Flex? If you are talking about what Roz wants us to trade her, I don't know what she asked for, I thought you said it was Doc:Flex? Wasn't I wondering why you wanted to trade it so soon after we were saying to the Borg that it was sacred? If it was Doc:Mob, then that would be a fine trade for Industrial Auto, if it comes down to that, it's just that it is tough to depend on making a particular deal with the AI, so it would be nicer to do it that way.

We're cross posting like crazy here, so in case you miss it above, I looked in the turn and Roz does not have Applied Physics.

Hercules · August 9, 2003, 22:51

Got ye, And I notice you beat me to it in the turn track thread.

I wasn't thinking of trading Doc Flex to Roze for anything, but as a
last resort buying Ind base for 100ecs. Her initial opening gambit is
for Doc Flex .When I decline and indicate I have another proposal: that
we would be interested in her research and to name her price, the tech
(hopefully Ind base), is offered for 100ecs. I might get 2 shots at
talking to her before she declines our transmissions.

Nor was I (we) thinking of trading Doc Flex to the PUT for ind Base.

Hercules · August 9, 2003, 23:15

Oh and to complicate matters Roze is currently researching Doc. Mob. But for all her new age IT knowhow she fails to catch on I could trade that to her.

re the PUT. I think they initially wanted (amongst other things) to trade Doc Flex for Ind Econ (which we hesitated about). We haven't got beyond the treaty stage but my reasoning was that the lower level trade Doc Moc or Progentor Psych for (I presume they have), Ind base, wouldn't cause to much soul searching.

johndmuller · August 10, 2003, 02:59

This one addresses the questions raised by Mainac in his detailed response to our original message.

Dear [Strike]Hive Agent[/strike] Prime Function Mani Alpha-3,

Let me address some of your questions to [strike]the limits of what they will let me say before I would have to walk the plank[/strike] the best of my ability.

It is true that we could also, in theory, research Industrial Auto ourselves, but in addition to the (small, at this point) charge for changing research targets and the possibility of not being offered it as one of the techs despite having the prereq's, it would, as you noted, probably take us 15 years or so to do the research, whereas there appears to be an opportunity to get it in only 3 or 4 years this way. We didn't select it when we finished our research because that happens in the pre-turn phase, before we had acquired the Industrial Econ tech, and so we did not yet have the prereq's for IndAuto.

We purchased the IndEcon from the DataJack and they are also a potential source of the IndBase tech. Since you were asking about the DJ, I can tell you that she is feeling Erraticallly Noncommital at the moment (I fear that her opinion of your Borgships would probably 'not compute'). We have determined that Roze also has IndBase (a ship full of [strike]our spies[/strike] innocent carousers was lost acquiring that information) and we may be able to acquire it from her also.

The reason that Cap'n Hercules mentioned Biogenetics was that Roze may offer us Biogenetics instead of IndBase and that could be precluded if we already had that tech. (When Cap'n Hercules included Applied Physics, it was the xenorum reading that tech into the Carousers' Intelligence report - the Datatechs do not have that tech). As you probably know, Biogenetics is not as useful a tech for us as it is for you in that our sea bases come with Pressure Domes and only our land bases might use Recyc's, so we would not cook up some elaborate ruse merely to get Biogenetics. It may be that Roze considers IndBase her next disposable tech instead of Biogen, but we do not know that to be true, so unless you know better than our 'scientists' (which is a pretty good bet), it would be prudent (as foreign a concept as that is to us) to avoid the situation where we would have to go an extra round (and perhaps another turn) with her to get to the IndBase, not to mention the extra cost.

As to why we are unsure we can get the tech, one simply cannot trust [strike]landlubbers[/strike] that Roz will deal with us at any given moment, let alone a moment of our choice.

Your analysis of the desired sequence of events is fundamentally correct. Conceivably we could take longer than hoped to get the IndBase (FYI stealing it in a reasonable enough time frame does not appear feasible due to the distance to the nearest DJ base that we know about). We are unsure as to for how long you can defer you research, but we assume you can slip it at least 1 year; if it were possible to work it so that you could optionally slip it for an additional year if we were delayed getting IndBase, that would be good. We of course recognize that you would be experiencing the pain of inefficiency and we sympathize with you - ordinarily, we would recommend a visit to the Rope Room astern for a pipe of xenoweed, but that may not be to your liking either.

On the contingency of your not being offered IndAuto the first time you have the Prereq's, I am entirely confident that the second time it would definitely be offered, so once you have the IndBase and IndEcon. as long as you have at least 1 extra turn in hand, it will be a sure thing that you can get IndAuto (unless the xenorum does the tech selection). As yuo might expect, we would prefer that you selected Progen Psych as the alternative tech "bridge", should you not be offered the Ind Auto.

We are hopeful that you will join us in this highly beneficial project, a real watershed event.

Please share your thinking on equitable quid pro quo possibities.

The Cuspidore BrownBeard.

(Paragraph sacrificed to the PM size limit)
I am also told by my advisors that it is not necessary to give you IndEcon immediately, that giving it to you with the IndBase would suffice, so we may not be authorized to provide it in advance, considering its high cost to us, but it seems a small matter anyway, whether it is sent one tujrn or the next, so I am sure that one or the other of us will brush it aside as a trivial concern.

-----------------------------

I had to bite my tongue to omit any mention of the PUT - I still think we should be upfront about our slight contact with them, but until we air it our more among ourselves, I will try to keep quiet about it.

Hercules · August 10, 2003, 06:45

Good job there Cuspidore, Flubber would be proud of ye. Now lets hope they and the PUT can repond in reasonable time.

Hercules · August 10, 2003, 10:14

This from Maniac ( part 1)
Hello Cuspidore and Captains (with copies to the 2ndF and EAF),

I thank you for your clear answers to my questions. Everything is now understandable for my algorithms. I understand the logic in wanting Biogenetics. Your latest P(b)ottle-Message hasn't been discussed yet, but there already was a general consensus we would be willing to give Biogenetics if we could both get IndAut that way.
quote:
so we would not cook up some elaborate ruse merely to get Biogenetics.

We weren't worried about that. We are worried though about a further proliferation of that technology. Therefore I have two requests for when I offer you Biogenetics pre-accepted next turn:
1 You won't research the Humane Genome Project. The CyCon have shown an interest in that ourselves.
2 You won't give Biogenetics to any other faction without our consent (or at least not before the HGP is finished).

Hercules · August 10, 2003, 10:16

From Mani-Aplha3 ( part 2 of above PM)

That's about it actually concerning my remarks. Am I correct to assume this will be the whole deal between us. If everything goes ok?:

Your offers and burdens:IndBase, IndEco, A possible third tech if necessary (ProgPsych?). Following Biogen restrictions

CyCon offers and burdens:Biogen, IndAut, A possible third tech if necessary (ApplPhys?) Suffering inefficiency from delaying research.

I still have to present this list for final consent to the Collective, but very probably (my algorithms tell me probably no less than 95%) it will be accepted.

Greetings, Mani Alpha-3

Hercules · August 10, 2003, 10:17

Communications between Peace and PUT

Hi there learned Dons and Deans,

Just wondering if your college of elders has reached any decisions yet
on the tech trade offer.

Cap'n Calico Hercules

This from GT ( PUT)

There has been no real decision reached yet (I'll see if I can prod the discussion along a bit), but the general consensus
seems to be that we provide Industrial Base to you in exchange for Doctrine: Mobility and the Cybernetic
Comm-frequency, which we have reason to beleive you have acquired.

Hercules · August 10, 2003, 10:49

Also GT wants to negotiate via Msn or Mirc.

My view on PUT proposals. We only wanted quick tech exchange pending more detailed treaty discussions between our factions. They have upped the proposal by looking for a comm channel. I wondered what gave them reason for this. It isn't our SE settings, so they must have concluded this after checking in the Dip channel, to see what techs they could trade to us and discovered we had Info Nets and Plan nets. There are ony a limited number of ways for us to do this. DJ or the Borg.

However Ind Base is a normal starting tech for the Borg (I think didn't some of the research factions ask Googlie for different start techs), so we could say ( bluffing) well if we had contact with them, wouldn't we have got Ind Base from them (the Borg). But in that case they would say we have DJ comm.

Hercules · August 10, 2003, 11:00

Re the Borg

My view. It seems the deal is on in principle, but the exchange seems unbalanced. Applied Physics though is useful in direct exchange I suppose for Progenitor Psych (again we should place restrictions). But I don't think they fully recognise the tremendous benefit in terms of years of research saved and the economic cost to us in being able to offer this deal.

If the deal falls through with the PUT we will need a splitting of costs in buying from Roze in addition to everything else.

Hercules · August 10, 2003, 11:03

I have sent this via email to GT

Thanks for your response. It will be considered by the council of
pirates. Cuspidore BB indicates he will be back on line around 12 midday
his time 17.00/18.00 GMT.

Cap'n Calico Herc

PS re Mirc. I have difficulty with my comp, posting anything. I can't
even reply to PMs with another PM.

Cuspidore BB may have better access.

johndmuller · August 10, 2003, 13:24

I'm not sure I like either deal very much - in the case of the PUT, it is obviously uneven, IMhO if anyone should be paying a premium in that deal it should be them - in the case of the CyCon not only do we place little value in the Biogenetics tech and the IndBase tech has been superceded to some extent by IndEcoon, but also the overall deal saves them two cycles of research (and potentially a third or even fourth if they were not offered the right techs) whereas it only saves us 1 cycle if we were to switch our research to IndAuto right now (possibly 2 if we had bad fortune in the tech choice).

If both of them are intransigent, I think we should seriously consider telling them both where to go and switching our research to IndAuto right now. Failing that, we would probably be better served by taking the deal with the PUT - then the Cycon would be forced to ante up something decent, having no possible rationale for such a 1 for 1 trade outlook. There would also be an element of poetic justice in that we would be helping the Borg's supposed enemy, thus 'serving them right'.

At the very least, though, we should probably tell the PUT that we do have other options for getting IndBase, so if they think they have us over a barrel because we said 'time sensitive' they can risk their chance of getting Doc:Mobility on whether or not we get it elsewhere (i.e. "Make a trade or stop wasting my time"). I don't know how likely an alliance between the PUT and the Borg might be, but the losers in that deal would likely be us, so I don't think we can afford to give away the links (which of course work both ways, so if we give them to the PUT, the CyCon have them too).

As to the Borg, I think that they need a gentle (or not so gentle) reminder of how good this deal is for them, and that not only did we shell out good P's of E and a good ship dealing with Roze, but we are also ending up with 2 techs we don't truly need (Biogen and IndBase) and their impact on our already inflated tech cost. Personally, I think that they ought to throw in Biogen for free and maybe a share of our out of pocket costs, especially if we have to buy the IndBase too. I think the deal should look more like this: We provide the IndBase, IndEcon, the ship, the 100 to 200 P's of E and the certainty of getting IndAuto in 2 to 4 turns - they give us the Biogen, the IndAuto, half the P's of E and a tech to be named later (I'm not sure that Applied Physics is good enough). Progen Psych would be traded for Applied Physics if necessary to give them a second tech choice.

I still think we ought to mention our contact with the PUT before the Borg bring it up themselves - thus casting us in the light of trying to hide it from them and putting us on the defensive; I don't know how the PUT would legitimately know that we have contact with the CyCon, but the CyCon definitely are able to know that we have contact with the PUT. If they knew that one of out options for getting IndBase was to trade with the PUT, they might be more than happy to give away Biogen.

I have no problem with foregoing the HGP, at least for some period of time - say 10 to 15 years; it is something we could use to help with a GA pop boom.

I'm sort of rambling here; I'll wait for some feedback before I do anything.

Hercules · August 10, 2003, 13:55

Yeah I think you have it about right in your summation.

With the PUT I think we maybe should approach it by saying something along the lines as you suggest, that we can get Ind base elsewhere but we thought they would value the opportunity to trade as a preliminary to more detailed and less hasty negotiations.

A stronger line is needed with the Borg definitely but I would hate to lose the deal and maybe you could say that many of the captains are a bit disappointed.

The future promises we want would relate to Doc: Init, if they get it first. You can mention the PUT but not their location. But this is going to make them the comm links as part of future deals if not this. You can also repeat we don't actually need Ind. Base to research Ind Auto. But overall ask them to rethink or we'll both be losers.

Back in 30 mins

Hercules · August 10, 2003, 14:44

Ok I am back, but 'poly seems very slow at the moment.

I don't think we both should negotiate. Also I am still not sure that just because we have a Pact with the Borg that they can know for sure we have treaty with the PUT. I think you only know for sure when you have direct contact yourself. They now know we have contact with DJ.

Without Doc: Flex they can't meet each other because of that stretch of water and the Fungus.

Here's an interesting consideration. We could say to the PUT we think that they have met with the Hive and could we have that comm channel for one of our comm channels (seeing as they are unsure of who we have met: the Borg or DJ.
Let them deny it.

I mean how did the Hive and the Drones get Info Nets and Plan nets?

If it gets difficult to post here lets resort to email and post a copy here later.

If you are not already in the priocess we need to get back to the PUT and the Borg.

johndmuller · August 10, 2003, 18:52

Cap'n Herc: I am very convinced that due to the Pact, which provides the same info as infiltration, the Borg will know our status with the PUT. There may be some qualifications, like perhaps things are murkier during Solar Flares or perhaps the status info is only updated at the beginning of each round of turns, but most of the time they will know. If you look at the profiles of Roze and of Miriam you will see in our profile of Roze (where we have infiltration) that she has a pact with Miriam, but on our profile of Miriam, we see nothing of that. So also will the Borg's profile of us show our contacts just as we see them, not according to only their own info.

I like your plan w/r the PUT, why don't you contact them and try it out, along with our previously discussed one about how we can get it elsewhere, but just want to warm up our relationship with them, etc., if you want. All things considered, I would rather get it from them than the DJ's (remember, the DJ's can use our money or techs against us too; we are their neighbors).

For my part, I'll try to remind the Borg of their proper perspective on what we are doing for them. As I see it, the more important of these discussions at the moment is with the PUT, as we may have to give (or at least offer) them something during this turn of ours to expect anything back (pre=accepted) on our next turn, which is what we want to have happen. Note: we don't have to accept a trade with them (assuming we haven't pre-accepted and thus already given them our half of the trade ourselves) until after trying our hand next turn getting it from the DJ's if we want to check out those options first; the trade will still be there to accept after our turn has started too. Getting nback to the CyCon again, we don't have to give them anything this turn - if won't affect the timing of the tech switching unless the Borg refuse to send Biogen and we are stuck with getting the IndBase from the DJs, in which case it will be a crap shoot as to which tech Roze offers,

Hercules · August 10, 2003, 19:34

OK I will contact the PUT along those lines.

johndmuller · August 10, 2003, 19:52

I sent this to Maniac of the CyCon:

I think that we are generally on the same page regarding our goals and the procedure necessary to advance ourselves to Industrial Auto at all ahead full.

Your request w/r to the HGP is reasonable, but we might prefer a fixed time frame after which we could build it (especially if some 3rd party were building it and you were not); after all it would be of use to us too, helping us to GA pop boom.

Your proposed exchanges appear balanced at first glance, but our Cap'n's Council does not consider your proposed contributions to be commensurate with the benefits you will be receiving, most particularly compared with the costs and expected benefits we will receive. I hope we will not have to call in Ambassador/Cap'n Flubber

once again to point out the disadvantages of driving too hard a bargain with us.

You are in a position to research IndAuto all by yourselves in a few turns plus 2 complete research cycles (at least 2, with bad luck on the tech offerings it could be up to 4 research cycles). The proposed deal gives it to you in just 3 turns or so.

On our own, we could switch to IndAuto right now and research it in 1 tech cycle (maybe 2 if we were unlucky) suffering an irritating, but affordable research penalty for the switch. Clearly, our current position is substantially ahead of yours in this area - your proposed arrangement does not reflect our relative starting positions.

We are obliged to obtain 2 techs we don't really need at this point (IndBase and BioGen) and possibly Applied Physics, causing a steep increase in our already formidable research costs. Additionally, we have already expended 100 P's of E and a 5 row ship (and crew and the negative turn advantage of losing it) and may have to expend an additional 100 P's of E to get the IndBase. For your part, the negatives seem to be 1 turn of inefficiency (maybe) due to switching your allocation and the possibility of having to acquire a tech you may not need (ProgenPsych).

As to putting the IndAuto into our column instead of into both, that is debatable; we will both be getting it as a result of this deal, and as I said above, we would have been getting it in half the time you would have gotten it if we do not make this deal.

I believe that an equitable arrangement, one that our Council would likely approve, would be in addition to the breakdown you listed, for you to share the cash expenses with us and to provide an additional tech to us (perhaps Applied Physics, perhaps some future tech). Further, if we find that we have exceeded our available time before readhing an agreement with you and have to switch our research to IndAuto to protect ourselves agqinst the possibility of not reaching agreement, then we will need additional compensation when the negotiations are concluded.

Please bear in mind that you can expect no better deal should we need to interrupt Ambassador/Cap'n Flubber

on his vacation to explain his version of your options.

Assuming things are going to work out, we tip a mug of xenogrog your way.

the Cuspidore BrownBeard

johndmuller · August 11, 2003, 02:03

No reply as of now from Borg; see y'all tomorrow.

Hercules · August 11, 2003, 05:55

This from GT in response to email to PUT

Your message has been posted in our private forum, and I await responses from the rest of the team. Hopefully I'll be able
to give our final answer fairly soon.

Googlie · August 11, 2003, 11:11

I don't want to put a spanner in the works, but it's now over 72 hours since the turn was posted

I think I should give an explanation (after all, 2 of the other 4 players know the reason for the delay - in fact some are causing it ) along the lines of:

Due to protracted negotiations between several factions I have authorized a futher 24 hour extension for playing of this crucial turn

Unless one of the PEACE members posts an explanation I propose posting this to the general turn tracking thread at 18:00 hours GMT today (10:00 am Pacific)

G.

Hercules · August 11, 2003, 12:01

Hi Googlie,

I agree I thought the negotiations would be complete by now.

I will post a notification. However I want to disguise the fact three
factions are involved so I will post some along the lines you propose
only leaving out the word several.

Cap'n Hercules

johndmuller · August 11, 2003, 12:07

I posted something already, may not be direct enough to suit everybody, but nobody has been complaining either, so I suppose they can figure what's going on more or less.

johndmuller · August 11, 2003, 14:30

This in from the Borg, a disappointing response. There is a second part I have yet to read, as I have been having trouble copying this message (as well as other funky difficulties (anyone know what svchost.exe does?), but now I seem to have done the copying at least.

I am inclined to stonewall them on this (perhaps offering them a slight discount to 75 ec's, but otherwise insisting on an extra tech. I had (and will have again) a more detailed position on this, but it was a casualty of the reboot I had to do to try to fix my system problems. There is ample time to argue with them, as it is the PUT negotiation that is really on the critical path; when it is the Borg's turn, several elements may become critical then, especially if we can't come up with IndAuto from the PUT. Meanwhile we should consider switching to IndAuto ourselves if we are unable to come up with a deal with the Borg; that will show them we are serious and give them something to worry about - it will take them 2 to 4 whole cycles of research to get IndAuto on their own (plus the rest of the one they are in).

---------------------(message from Drogue below)--------------

Diplomacy pt 1

Greetings Cuspidore and Captain Hercules

As External Affairs Function, I come to you regarding the deal we are trying to broker.

With regards to your request for costs or an extra tech, I bring you our arguments:

You claim that you are spending an extra 200ec, and that is true, but you are also receiving an extra 2 techs for it. You gain the two techs from the angels and then two from us. Indeed, how you came across those techs is not of concern to us. You have spent 200ec to get two techs, but that is separate from our deal. Our deal was to trade two techs each (the two you received from the Angels, for 1 we currently have and 1 we are about to get). Your aregument for us to pay some of the costs of the techs is illogical. If we were to pay half the costs say, then we have both had an equal outlay, and would both have an equal claim to the two techs. Thus we would not trade you two techs as well for the equal share of those techs we already would have. Our Pact was founded on the idea of fair trade, one tech each, as brokered by myself and Flubber. We would like to honour that.

You also claim that the techs you are getting are worth less. We disagree strongly. We have met Miriam, and I will disclose details of how that happened later (for another deal). Ind Base is considerably important when faced with Miriam, as the synthmetal armour is needed to combat her aggressiveness and superior attacking forces. Also, Biogenetics gives you the ability to build the Rec Tanks, and leads to Gene Splicing, one of the most important techs. You would have to research or trade for it soon, since Gene Splicing is particularly important to aquatic factions. Moreover, Progenitor Psych is as near as completely useless as you can get, since there are no Progenitors on Chiron. Therefore we could use the lack of use argument just as well.

You also point out that you could get Ind Auto quicker, in 1 cycle than two. That is very true. However we have a quicker tech cycle, so that is not such a disadvantage to us, and with the penalty to you for changing, it may not be quicker actually. It will certainly not be half the time as you claim. We do realise that you are ahead regarding it though, and you are our Pact Brothers. Thus to reflect that, and as a mark of goodwill, we offer 25ec (being the amount you gave us last time, plus inflation).

Our Pact was built on cooperation and equal trade. We offer one tech for another, and we do not hold back on any tech. We also lose out on inefficiency through changing, however if you were to agree not to trade Biogenetics, nor build the HGP, for 25 turns, we would see that as a fair trade. Biogenetics is still an extremely important tech, especially for you, as mentioned above. We both want Ind Auto ASAP, and this gives us both the advantage compared to others. You came to us with this deal, and thus you seemed to think it was worthwhile. We agree, and would like to trade as originally suggested. Adding extra things at this stage just complicates it, and makes it seem to some in the CyCon that you wanted to get us to agree and then ask for extra stuff. I do not believe that, I trust you and I want to make this deal, which is why I have fought to get a small concession, as Flubber did for us last time, as a mark of goodwill. You mentioned about the lack of time, which would have been much eased if you had not sprung these concessions you wanted. I understand that some of the Pirates feel as some CyCon do, that the other side is trying to get the better deal, at the expense. I assure you that is not the case from our side. We wish friendship and trade that we both gain from.

-------------------------(part 2 of their message -$^%$#$@#in msg sz limit) ----------

Damn it, I can't copy again!!!!!!!!

Anyway, the rest of it is mainly a restatement of their trade lists, adding an insulting 25ec's to their offer and arguing against my weak argument that putting IndAuto into only their side was debatable.