..Re: Pirate/Borg/PUT trade deals of 2127

[Hercules]

copy of email to PUT

Greetings from the Pirates,
>
>I thought we, the Pirates, had a reputation for discourtesy, but your
>lack of response to our most recent communication, within a reasonable
>time, as you promised, is a little embarrassing.
>
>You will have noted we have had to post in the turn thread a disguised
>reason for the posting delay. That reflects badly on us.
>
>Please advise situation
>Capn' Hercules

[Hercules]

And at last a response>

Greetings from the University,

On behalf of the Foreign Ministry, I apologize for the non-reply. The
University network has been down, and I have not been able to access my
communication folder.

My faculty seems to have reached the consensus that the deal, that is only
the technologies exchanged, is acceptable. I expect the Dean or another
Faculty member will contact you again to finalize the deal.

I hope this has not been too much of an inconvenience for you.

Sincerely,

P.U.T. Foreign Secretary

[Hercules]

My reply on behalf of the pirates

Dear Dean, Dons, Professors and senior lecturers,

We are pleased that your world renown University has agreed to this
straightforward technological exchange of scientific papers relating to
these two subject areas.

We are sure Ambassador Flubber, when he returns from vacation, will take
this as an encouraging sign of the PUT's positive disposition to the
Peace faction.

Thank you again, on behalf of the Pirates

Cap'n Calico Hercules.

[Hercules]

No response yet to Cuspidore's good cop approach to the Borg. The turn is now with the Hive and it won't be long before its back with us again.

[Hercules]

Ah contact

This most recently from Maniac.

Hello Cuspidore and Captain,

First, thanks for your mails concerning Industrial Base. As Cuspidore
BrownBeard mentioned, I was indeed thinking of my SP experience while being
the most powerful faction when I thought the AI wouldn't want to trade. It
may be different now. But let's get down to business:

Our turn has just arrived. This means we can continue our negotiations. I am
now authorized to disclose to you a crucial piece of information which we
didn't inform you of yet because we weren't a 100% sure it could be
realized. But now it is: We have established contact with the Data Angels.

As of now, we are capable of buying Industrial Economics from the Data
Angels ourselves. When we have done so, we could switch our research
immediately to Industrial Automation and research IndAut in five or six
years. However that would mean we would loose half of our labs currently
accumulated towards Industrial Base. Therefore it might be recommended to
complete our research of IndBase first and then research IndAut. Using that
tactic we would still research IndAut around the same time of you. You may
now realize why there is no way we would ever give you three techs and 100
ec to get IndAut ten turns earlier (so certainly not the 50 turns you wanted
us to believe).

Despite this new situation we would still prefer to trade with you, our pact
brothers, instead of with one of Googlie's souped-up AIs. However
we want to be treated and respected as EQUAL PARTNERS in this endeavour.
Concrete this means a trade on the basis of "one-tech-for-one-tech".

Therefore I repeat my previous offer:

We offer:
Biogen
IndAut

You offer:
IndBase
IndEcon

We are willing to discuss the details of the deal - for example if you would
want credits or some future tech we research instead of the "worthless"
Biogen, or if you would want some credits in exchange for the restrictions
we would like on Biogenetics trading if we give it to you - but since we now
are in the same position to get IndAut in less than fifteen years the base
model remains: one tech for one tech.

***

[Hercules]

This is Cuspidore BB's initial holding response.

Cap'n Herc and I may not get to talk about this for a little bit due to the time zone thing, so I thought I'd give you my initial take
on your proposition in the meantime.

For a message that is titled 'Let's continue our negotiations', it seems to offer a noticable lack of negotiations - one can't help
noticing that you have not changed your offer at all.

If you want to pay 100 credits to Roze instead of to your pactmate, that speaks volumes.

You also seem to be taking for granted that you will have the opportunity to research what you want, a proposition which is
not guaranteed; apparently you slept through my seminar.

We are prepared to negotiate; please let us know when you are similarly inclined.

the Cuspidore.


Edit by the Cuspidore: This presentation of my message contains unattractive formatting not found in the original, presumably added by Cao'n H's mail client.

[Hercules]

This is my email to Cuspidore in preparing our official reponse.

Hi Cuspidore,

I am inclined to go for the offer.

>From them
Ind Auto
new future tech

>From us
Ind Base
Ind Econ

By the time we are ready for future negotiations Flubber will be back.

Funny they didn't mention us and the PUT and I will be interested to see
how that shows up in the Comm screen.

Thankfully they accept the SP reason about the AI ( ie DA trading.Ind
Base).

So in summary I would recommend going for their alternative offer. Ind
Auto is too important to both of us at this time to miss out.

When they get Ind Auto, they are likely to research something that will
also be useful to us. maybe Gene Splicing.

[johndmuller]

Presumably you've seen their latest non-offer too.

These people are P!$$in' me off; I'm ready to go hostile on them. The pump us for info as to where we got our techs, we tell them where where we got IndEcon and they go out of their way (presumably paying Miriam or some such to get Roze's commlinks) all cause they can't handle giving us a decent profit.

They say they're willing to pay Roze 100ec for IndEcon; obviously we were willing to give her 100 too, so they ought to be willing to give us the 100 instead. After that they ought to be willing to trade IndAuto for IndBase since they are so big on 1 tech for 1 tech. That will put them to the test, as it seems to be in accord with their stated positions, but it is still something that looks unfair on the surface since we will have gotten IndAuto for free; that might (underling might) make me feel less like blowing them off all together. Realistically, we might have to take less than 100 (maybe 50 plus Applied Physics next), but I think I'd rather blow them off and go our own way than settle for the deal you mention - I am pretty determined to enforce the position that we need to make a profit on this deal since we have made otherwise questionable deals to get this far. Remember, they already offered us your proposed deal + 25 ec's and don't forget that they would have to play what-will-the-game-offer-as-research-choices 2 times before they can get IndAuto only at about the same time as us (that gives them less than 50% probability). Further, unless they have already tried out the deal with Roze, they don't know for sure that they can get the IndEcon from her and if they have, that could mean they were playing fast and loose with the rules about playing the turn ahead.

If they won't take a deal reflecting the risks we have already taken and survived, $%# 'em.

-------------

It would be nice to think that Cap'n Flubber could puill off a better deal, but IMhO, having dealt with Cap'n F's negotiating technique from the other side, part of the reason they are being so recalcitrant here is that they are still feeling abused from the first round of trading.

--------------

As to whatever they research next, what makes you think that it will be worth the aggravation of dealing with them again.

[johndmuller]

Cap'n Hercules' proposal during Borg's 2128 turn.

Hi Mani-Alpha-3, External Ambassador Function Drogue and other functions

We're close to a deal I feel

You will have noted and I know you ( Prime function) have responded to
some initial reaction from us to your ( Cycon's) offer.

We are pleased you have established contact with Datajack Roze and
discovered she can be difficult/erratic to deal with.

Anyhow

Among the options you offered

were
Ind Base for Ind Auto

and Ind Econ for new tech ( to be discovered by you).

Assuming you mean negotiations as opposed to 'this is our offer take it
or leave' , I have secured from my pirate brothers this:

Ind Base for Ind Auto
Ind Econ for new tech, plus

to reflect the overheads we have already incurred; to reflect the delay
in the discovery and delivery of a new tech, (the turn after you
discovery it, unless Ambassador asks for delay or otherwise). And to
reflect, which you don't really seem to acknowledge, the considerable
saving in research time we save both of us ( that includes you ). Maybe
a reverse opportunity of a similar nature will happen in the future.

As a pact brother, if I hadn't spotted this catch up opportunity
(catching up to the Drones and Hive, have you forgotten that), over and
beyond the tech for tech deal, we could both be potentially eclipsed by
them. I don't think you relish that prospect (nor do we) .

So all we ask is 55.6 ecs (only 30.6 ecs more than External Ambassador
Drogue's offer a few communications back). well we may give you 0.6
discount for you own research delay.

This is just over a quarter of our potential cost overheads of 200ecs.

We look forward to a speedy resolution to this as it really has gone on
far too long.

Yours

Cap'n Calico Hercules

PS we will also throw in some cases of fine 10 year old XenoRum and some
bottles of 'Holy Believer' water we which we guess, you having met
Miriam you enjoy annointing yourselves with, for the fun of it.

[johndmuller]

the Cuspidore's wager with Cap'n Hercules

If you'd care to make a side bet on whether or not they accept it, how about a bottle of my best XenoGrog against a bottle of your best XenoRum? To give you a chance, I'll call it a win for you if they take the deal or offer at least 45 ec's and a draw if they offer at least 31.6 (your offer minus 25) anything less a win for me and if they reject ALL, the money you have to throw in a pouch of good XenoWeed (to balance that out, I'll give you 2 pouches if they offer more than you asked for).

[johndmuller]

Maniac's reply
(although to what is apparently open to question - perhaps he never read Cap'n Herc's proposition - I forwarded another copy to his other (who knew) email address and perhaps he will have another answer if he hadn't read it before)

Hello Cuspidore and Captain,

Except for BrownBeard's short reply, I see you still haven't responded what you think about my proposal. As the 48-hour time limit I have to play the turn in already expires in 23 hours, I have taken the liberty to write you yet another mail with a more concrete proposal.

Before that I'd like to come back a minute on your comments in the previous mail. You said there was a lack of negotiations in my mail, and that we haven't changed our initial offer at all. However I would like to point out that throughout these negotiations it is YOU who has not changed your offer once. In fact, you have not even reiterated your initial offer. It is us who have gone from tech-for-tech (which, we can't stress enough, was one of the terms of our pact) to offering some energy credits, to offering MORE energy credits. And the reason we would be willing to give 100 EC to the Angels, rather than to you, is not because we dislike you, but because the Angels are offering us A BETTER DEAL. You, as traders and merchants, should be well aware of this principle.

In the absence of any comments from you we in the Consciousness have had plenty of time to discuss what is the maximum we are willing to offer in exchange for Industrial Base and Industrial Economics. As a result we have come to two possible deals, depending on what you like more: techs or credits.

Model 1: tech-heavy deal

You offer: IndBase
In return we offer: IndAut ten turns earlier than we both would normally get
You offer: IndEco
In return we offer: Biogen, plus 25 credits if you do not build the HGP the next 25 years and if you don't trade Biogen to another faction unless we agree (or until the HGP is complete)

You could of course switch the arguments I gave for what we offer, eg IndAut <-> IndEco and IndBase <-> Biogen + 25 credits. That doesn't matter.

Model 2: credit-heavy deal

You offer: IndBase
In return we offer: IndAut ten turns earlier than we both would normally get
You offer: IndEco
In return we offer: 60 credits; that's more than half of what you paid to the Angels to get IndEco. So by giving you 60 credits we would buy half the "owning rights" for IndEco. In addition, because we appreciate you are willing to trade with us, in this model we offer an extra 20 credits as a gift.

Summarized, in exchange for IndBase and IndEco we offer IndAut, Biogen and 25 credits, or IndAut and 80 credits.

Again, the details of this deal are certainly open for discussion. For example if you wanted another tech than Biogen.

If we haven't reached a deal yet by the time I need to play the turn, I'll delay our research but of course I won't offer you anything yet in the in-game diplomacy box. The turn will then be in your hands, and with that also the decision whether to go through with the deal or not.

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Hercules]

The fact that the PUT now have Ind Auto adds a new ingredient to the discussion. We can trade with them but the price might be high, like Doc.Flex or a Comm channel. Our maps are not for sale.

If no reasonable response from the Cycon then I ( only, with your approval), will report our craft in another factions waters but that we can't quite identify which faction yet.

Who ever it is ( heh), at least tech trading for Ind. Auto with them would have 100% certainty and be quicker for us, whereas the passing of techs to the Cycon to then to rely on Ind Auto being offered next has more risk and will take longer. etc etc. blah,blah.

[Hercules]

Here's this from Mani-Alpha -3 sorry for double post. it was meant to be here.

Hello Cap'n Hercules,

I have to say I find it astounding that in the middle of intense and
crucial negotiations you didn't check all you emails, especially as you use
both email addresses regularly.

Yes well sorry. In the latest few e-mails you were sending your communiqués
both to the skynet and hotmail addy, so I presumed checking one addy would
be sufficient. Also you have to know my computer is divided into a few
partitions, one called "Serious Business" and another "Games". I can play
SMAC on the games section, where I needed to be at that time. However there
isn't a Microsoft Outlook in the "Games" partition; there is in "Serious
Business". So to check skynet mails I have to restart my computer. Then,
when I'm in "SB" I still have to wait yes another minute until some LAN card
starts working and I can finally go online and check mails. After that I
would have to go back to "Games" to continue with the things I was doing
(writing 3D, which involved a few SMAC pictures, so I needed to be in
"Games"). All in all, this procedure involves me turning my thumbs for six
minutes while staring at the computer screen every time I feel the need to
check my e-mails. Call me lazy if you will, but that evening I was willing
to take the gamble you had sent all your mails to hotmail.

A normal courtesy is a response from someone from the Cycon faction
to these replies.

Well I did send you a short unofficial mail, but apparently you didn't
receive it. Anyway, I hereby officially acknowledge to have received your
replies.

In that unofficial mail I sent you I also included a calculation I made. I
counted a tech as worth 150 credits for easiness, though our research costs
are currently lower and yours higher. As you can see, you are making double
the profit out of this deal than we are. Even if you'd put paying 100
credits for IndBase on your list of burdens (which is discussable as that
negates any futures advantages you got from IndBase), you still have more
profit.

You get:
+150 credits by not having to research IndAut
+150 credits by not having to research a future tech
+55 credits
A total of 355 credits profit.

We get:
+150 credits for not having to research IndBase
+100 credits for not having to research IndEco (not 150 because we could buy
it from the Angels for less)
-15 credits because we would still have to spend some labs on researching
IndAut, with the inefficiency and all that
-55 credits being paid to you
A total of 180 credits profit.

And yet, without further discussion/ negotiation ( isn't negotiation/
diplomacy about issues tooing and froing), you post a poll on a non agreed
proposal. Well every faction operates differently!!

Well if we as representatives of our factions both agreed on the proposal,
there no longer needed to be a poll. Anyhow, we've already been tooing
and froing (What does that mean? ) for a whole week, plus this
was the first concrete proposal we received from you after your earlier one
of three techs and 100 ec, so I just put it up for poll to see what the
Collective thought. Currently 33% wants to accept your proposal. 66% rejects
it. We are simultaneously holding a poll what's the maximum amount of
credits we want to offer you. Perhaps another cyborg wants to take over from
me, but I'm tired of these negotations. I don't really care anymore whether
the deal goes on or not. So when that poll is done, I'll just tell you the
results with the message "That's the maximum the Collective wants to give
you. I have no authority to offer you anything more in negotiations. The
choice is entirely up to you whether or not you accept the deal." Currently
the mean of the credits individual cyborgs want to offer you is somewhere
around 40 ec (nicely between your and my latest proposal). Also they are
demanding that the future tech "is mutually agreed upon and preferably early
in the tech tree".

First the good news: We have acquired Ind Base.

Ah that's great. I'll probably see it next turn, but may I ask: how many
credits did you pay for IndBase? This information may influence the amount
of credits the Collective is willing to pay.

Now the latest news: the PUT have joined the Hive and the Drones in
acquiring Ind. Auto.

Yes I already noticed in our turn.

I am going to play a little more, explore a little more and I 'll get
back soon but I thought you our PACT mates might like to know of these
developments, immediately..

Thank you. Friendly greetings,Mani Alpha-3

[Hercules]

And this from Drogue

As for the deal, it looks good to me, although I would like to mention a few
things.

> Ind Base for Ind Auto
> Ind Econ for new tech, plus
>
> to reflect the overheads we have already incurred; to reflect the delay
> in the discovery and delivery of a new tech, (the turn after you
> discovery it, unless Ambassador asks for delay or otherwise). And to
> reflect, which you don't really seem to acknowledge, the considerable
> saving in research time we save both of us ( that includes you ). Maybe
> a reverse opportunity of a similar nature will happen in the future.
This is true, and we do realise it, but the fact it is a massive saving to
both means it doesn't strengthen either side relative to the other, it
merely makes the deal more important. As for the delay, that is true also,
and although it is partly remostrated by you being able to choose your
future tech, it would count in your favour, hence the offer of some ec for
that.

We would also need to know what tech you would like? Ethical Calculus has
been suggested by one CyCon, since you were considering researching it
yourself. Have you any ideas which one you would like? It would be much
easier to gather support if we knew which tech we were giving away.


> As a pact brother, if I hadn't spotted this catch up opportunity
> (catching up to the Drones and Hive, have you forgotten that), over and
> beyond the tech for tech deal, we could both be potentially eclipsed by
> them. I don't think you relish that prospect (nor do we) .
This is true. The fact you spotted the deal has done us both a great
service. I thank you.

> So all we ask is 55.6 ecs (only 30.6 ecs more than External Ambassador
> Drogue's offer a few communications back). well we may give you 0.6
> discount for you own research delay.
You do have a delay, although that is partly remedies by being able to
choose your tech, to some extent, although it is still an issue in your
favour. Also you did think up the deal, which might be worth something, as
it is saving both of us. Then there is the overheads and inefficiency on
both sides, although admittedly more on yours. I have not been given
authorisation from the people yet, but in my role as Extrenal Affairs
Function, I would like to broker a deal that I can put to the people. They
have voted against the 55ec, as being too much. I admit that you do deserve
a slight ec bonus, but I think that 55ec is too much. Although I feel the
earlier offer of 25ec was about right to reflect that, in the interests of
concluding this, I will try to get an offer slightly higher than our
previous one. You say 55, we say 25; if you will agree to 40ec, I will put
it to the people and see, although I am unsure as to what they will say. It
has a chance of getting through, although obviously if you could accept 30ec
it would have a far greater chance. This is pure speculation with
probabilities, but if you would agree to 30ec, I think there is a 90% chance
the people will accept it, and probably a 50% chance at 40ec (although I
will try in both cases, as I am personally for both cases). I am pretty
sure the 55ec will lose the vote.

If you give me your position, I will put it to the functions of the CyCon.

In all cases we would need you to state which future tech you would like.
Would Ethical Calculus be acceptable?

Yours
Drogue

[Hercules]

My reply

Greetings External Affairs Function Drogue Beta 8 and Prime function
Mani- Alpha 3

First thank you for your speedy response. I am pleased that you also
feekl a deal is possible.I t is so close.

As far as I am concerned a useful tech such as Ethical Calculus would be
fine. I mean we are not going to hold out for Doc. Air. But if you
choose Ecol Eng to research next, that would be acceptable.

Now to the ecs bit. I know Cuspidore BB could easily present a counter
thesis but that would take too long in this time period. I may convince
him to give a repeat lecture at a future date in one of your fine
cities.

I believe I could persuade the Peace faction to accept 40ecs. More
importantly it will get our two factions back on a proper equal Pact
brother footing.

best wishes

Cap'n Calico Hercules