Map making

SlowThinker · August 11, 2003, 19:51

I am lazy to test it: Must players have Map Making if they want to swap maps in MP?

finbar · August 11, 2003, 20:20

No, they just need to have made contact in the game.

SlowThinker · August 11, 2003, 20:35

This is bad IMHO. It is more interesting with a need of map making.

finbar · August 11, 2003, 21:56

Why? The Map Making tech serves a particular function - it lets you build triremes and one of the Wonders. The actual exchange of maps is a function of in-game diplomacy, like exchanging techs and so on.

Ming · August 11, 2003, 22:29

I agree with finbar that Map Making is already important because it gives you the power to start using the sea...

On the other hand... I find it funny that you can exchange maps without being able to make maps

But I see no reason or desire to change the way it is.

And in our games... who cares... we usually don't trade maps anyway

rah · August 12, 2003, 08:14

Yeah, I haven't traded maps with anybody in quite a while. (not including game over map trades) I don't trust most of the cut throats that we play with.

-Jrabbit · August 12, 2003, 08:32

I can't imagine a MP game situation where a map trade wouldn't (or at least couldn't) bite you.

[Yeah, I can just see rah in king chat -- "Oh, by the way, here's the location of my capital, War4."]

In SP, you know the AI "has" the maps anyway...

rah · August 12, 2003, 09:29

There are rare occassions where it might make sense.
1. In a three man game, you start 6 squares from someone and the other person has 2/3 of the rest of the map to grow. I have traded maps to avoid an early war that will hand the third person the game. It makes it easier to establish a peaceful border.
But since I'm not usually into peace, a rare occurance.
2. Later in the game and you want to gang up on the person with a big lead. (fortunately this doesn't happen much either

)

SlowThinker · August 12, 2003, 09:41

I would suppose that in a 4-people MP the diplomacy (and so map trading - with maps you may persuade an opponent you are in a good situation to make an alliance) is extremely important. I would think a 3-5 player MP is not Civ2 but 'Diplomacy' - winner is a player that persuade others not to attack him but another guy.

I started a PBEM and it IS about alliances and about map trading. But the map is large enough - bad for wars

.

rah · August 12, 2003, 10:00

We don't allow official alliances in our games and tech trading is not allowed, so diplomacy still exists but is limited. We do allow tech stealing and caravan delivery agreements, but all aggrements are suspect and likely to be broken at almost anytime.

Ming · August 12, 2003, 11:03

Yes... in our games, "agreements" aren't something you depend on for very long... because the second there is an opportunity to gain by breaking it...

rah · August 12, 2003, 13:52

Yes, when you cram 4 people onto a 39x49 map, the outcome is inevitable. Fight for land.

atawa · August 13, 2003, 17:12

I actualy never knew you needed mapmaking to trade maps with AI.

finbar · August 13, 2003, 17:58

You don't.

Alexander's Horse · August 13, 2003, 19:57

what's a map?

DrSpike · August 14, 2003, 06:28

Quote:

Originally posted by atawa
I actualy never knew you needed mapmaking to trade maps with AI.

Hehe, when I played the ELG's a while back I forgot as well. It took me a couple of minutes (with some profanity

) to figure out why.

rah · August 14, 2003, 08:17

It's been so long since I played with an AI............
So finbar says no and others say yes. Which one is it?

Alexander's Horse · August 14, 2003, 08:40

no

DrSpike · August 14, 2003, 08:42

I thought in SP you did need the tech. But then, its been a while. One of the regular SPers can probably confirm Finbar's assertion.

Makeo · August 14, 2003, 08:43

no

finbar · August 14, 2003, 09:22

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike
I thought in SP you did need the tech. But then, its been a while. One of the regular SPers can probably confirm Finbar's assertion.

Nong. MP and SP are exactly the same when it comes to maps. As soon as you meet another civ in the game, you have the option to exchange maps. In SP, you will just about always need the other civ to be Worshipful (or Enthusiastic, at the least) in order for them to agree to an exchange. Handing them a zillion techs usually does the job. Unless you've got a dodgy reputation. Next turn, of course, regardless, they're back to hating your guts.

DrSpike · August 14, 2003, 09:32

Quote:

Originally posted by finbar

Nong. MP and SP are exactly the same when it comes to maps. As soon as you meet another civ in the game, you have the option to exchange maps. In SP, you will just about always need the other civ to be Worshipful (or Enthusiastic, at the least) in order for them to agree to an exchange. Handing them a zillion techs usually does the job. Unless you've got a dodgy reputation. Next turn, of course, regardless, they're back to hating your guts.

Yeah that sounds right............it must be other Civ games where you need the map making corollary to get be able to trade maps.

SlowThinker · August 14, 2003, 12:43

Map exchanging with MGE

DrSpike · August 14, 2003, 12:48

Ok now I am confused. Finbar (and many who agree with him) convinced me I misremembered it. But SG seems to suggest there map making makes a difference, and (t)he(y) plays a lot of SP. Somebody sort this out please.

rah · August 14, 2003, 15:54

Yes, someone, anyone.

SlowThinker · August 14, 2003, 16:27

I seem to suggest it too. I followed SGs suggestion and it worked.

rah · August 14, 2003, 17:37

So the definative answer is that you need Mapmaking before you can trade maps with the AI?

DrSpike · August 14, 2003, 17:43

Well looking at ST's example it isn't concrete, since the AI has some leeway in deciding which attitude to trade at.

rah · August 14, 2003, 18:03

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

finbar · August 14, 2003, 19:10

For crying out loud! It's very simple!

You have the capacity to trade maps in SP as soon as you meet another civ in the game. Just as in MP. In SP, whether an AI civ will agree to trade maps is another matter. But the capacity exists. Start an SP game, meet a civ, look at the options available under "Have A Proposal To Make". You can ask to exchange maps.

The thread to which Slow Thinker linked talks about the AI civs' willingness to trade maps. The rule of thumb is that an AI civ will probably agree to exchange maps if:

(a) Their attitude is Worshipful or Enthusiastic. They will rarely agree at a level below Enthusiastic;

(b) You have a Spotless reputation. They will rarely agree if your reputation is less than Spotless;

(c) You are allied with the AI civ in question. But even this doesn't guarantee they will agree.

So, once again, for the slow people - and the very slow person, the economist - you have the capacity to exchange maps with an AI civ from the first meeting. Whether or not the AI civ will agree to an exchange is a different matter.