One of the most important political issues of mine...

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 22:50

"Do the city realize, when your bid is 3 to 5, it's hard to find a 9 to 5?"

i've been posting about this on apolyton a couple times over the years but it seems that for some odd reason, no one ever seems to care and even stranger, no politician as far as i know has ever talked about these issues... why is it that ex-convicts are forced to suffer even though they are reformed?

i most definently personally know far more ex-convicts that anyone else in this thread and it's very frustraing to see them having such a hard time just because they made some mistakes in their youth. most found allah or jesus in prison and are now very moral and hard-working people but job oppurtunities are rare for anyone with a criminal record.

take for example one man i know who is in his thirties now... in his youth, he got into all sorts of crime and ended up being shot numerous times (seven or eight if i recall correctly). he was arrested and was up-state for most of his twenties. now, he's a reformed man who is taking pharmaceutical science courses but is having a tough time with his minimum wage grill cook pay-check. fortunately (i guess fortunately), he don't got no kids or nothing to support so he is managing but most ex-convicts DO got children to support... they now realize it is important to pay the child support and be involved in their sons and daughters' lives so they won't make the same mistakes they did... and yet, doing all that, as well as feeding yourself, AND trying to get a community college/trade school education (which may not amount to much with that criminal record still showing up on their job applications and background checks), all on a minimum wage paycheck... and i can't help but feel sorry for my brothers who strayed years ago but are now on the right path... i hope they are all strong enough to stay true no matter the difficulties but it's easy to see how crime is a cycle with such problems.

so what can be done to help them? it seems so simple to me... businesses should be given significant tax breaks for hiring reformed criminals to get more businesses (which actually pay a good wage) hiring these good men... community college/vocational training should be given to economic felons (ie- arrested weed smokers NOT included)...

if i ever run for office in the future, this will be one of the main points of my agenda... why is it that i know of no present politician with these issues on his own agenda? just cause ex-cons can't vote?

thanks

Asher · August 11, 2003, 22:54

Why should you be forced to trust a man who has been convicted of breaking society's trust?

You may insist he's reformed, but frankly why should anyone take that risk?

If the guy/girl wasn't stupid to begin with, there wouldn't be a problem.

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 22:57

So let's just make the system such that they get right back into crime because that's the life that you are destined to have because you made a mistake in your teenage years?

Asher · August 11, 2003, 22:58

Not my problem.

Who is to say the person who was a dumbass as a teen isn't a dumbass as a 40 year old unemployed bum?

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 23:02

what you mean "Not my problem"???

giving businesses who hire ex-convicts tax breaks effects you how?

MrFun · August 11, 2003, 23:04

You'll have to pardon Asher -- he got on this rant about stupid people with the computer problem thread.

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 23:10

I think it could be made so that non violent crimes can have their records sealed from an employer.

Odin · August 11, 2003, 23:11

I agree with AS!!! PARTY!!!

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 23:13

Yavoon:

that would do nothing for most of the ex-convicts i know who were arrested for such things as assault, burglarly, and gun possession... the other common crime, drug dealing... would that be considered violent?

Asher · August 11, 2003, 23:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
what you mean "Not my problem"???

giving businesses who hire ex-convicts tax breaks effects you how?

Less tax money for my public healthcare.

Why don't we give businesses tax breaks for hiring white boys too? How does that "effect" you?

Nubclear · August 11, 2003, 23:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
he don't got no kids or nothing to support

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 23:29

Comrade:

what is so shocking about that? he was in jail for just about all his twenties... never had the oppurtunity to have children...

Nubclear · August 11, 2003, 23:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Comrade:

what is so shocking about that?

Not a thing.

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 23:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Yavoon:

that would do nothing for most of the ex-convicts i know who were arrested for such things as assault, burglarly, and gun possession... the other common crime, drug dealing... would that be considered violent?

drug dealing is non violent. burglary is also probably non violent. armed robbery is violent. I don't really have a whole lot of sympathy for someone who sticks a gun in another persons face and threatans his life.

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 23:37

still... what you suggested only helps out a small percentage of the people i'm talking about...

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 23:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
still... what you suggested only helps out a small percentage of the people i'm talking about...

maybe they should meet me halfway and help themselves a little.

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 23:40

yavoon... take the guy who's taking pharmaceutical courses... he admits he shot people and was shot himself numerous times... he was probably a horrible person in his youth but why must that bad past ruin his chances of succeeding now? he wants to succeed and is clearly working very hard... he deserves a boost... not no welfare-like checks or nothing... just the oppurtunity of a business that pays a good wage not immediately throwing away his application because he was convicted of violent crimes

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 23:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
yavoon... take the guy who's taking pharmaceutical courses... he admits he shot people and was shot himself numerous times... he was probably a horrible person in his youth but why must that bad past ruin his chances of succeeding now? he wants to succeed and is clearly working very hard... he deserves a boost... not no welfare-like checks or nothing... just the oppurtunity of a business that pays a good wage not immediately throwing away his application because he was convicted of violent crimes

I dont know the law well enuff, but dont lots of states seal files of what u did as a minor? I think in the abstract u have a point.

but as an employer would u hire a guy who raped a women and stabbed two others over someone who didn't?

Nubclear · August 11, 2003, 23:44

Yeah. He didn't mean to shoot them...It's their fault that their bodies got in the way of the wall and the bullet

I would never hire a guy whos shot multiple people. Ever. No matter how sorry he was and how much he repented to god, because if he did it once, he can do it again. And if he already did it again....

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 23:48

Quote:

but as an employer would u hire a guy who raped a women and stabbed two others over someone who didn't?

thats why tax breaks should be given to such businesses that give these men a chance...

Vandal-1 · August 11, 2003, 23:49

Only jobs that are security sensitive should have the right to petition for such information regardless of the crime.upon release the debt is paid and a "Don't ask,don't tell "policy should be the way.This problem is a outgrowth of the big brother syndrome.Albert I work in the Oilfield Ive had some good hands that are ex-cons our scrutiny is on how a man performs his duties not wether or not he was a choir boy in a former life.
The big brother syndrome is caused by controle
freaks who are threatened by any potential risk. I personally would put a man who committed a armed assault in a security position over a Dudly Doright typr since I know he has the Huevos to handle a gunfight,and the other man is untestested.

Verto · August 11, 2003, 23:50

You can't expect businesses to view these former convicts as changed men. You yourself may have a different view of these individuals, because you have gotten to know them over a period of time. But an employer will only see "rapist" or "armed robbery". It may not be right, but it isn't exactly wrong, either.

I wish your friend the best of luck, by the way, AS.

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 23:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer

thats why tax breaks should be given to such businesses that give these men a chance...

k u go explain that the gun toting excon got a job instead of the single mother cuz the business wants to take advantage of uncle sam's giveaway.

that was probably mean. but if u give a job or an advantage to someone. there is most likely someone on the other end of the stick.

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 23:51

Tassadar:

and what happens to that man when he is refused at every job he applies for?

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 23:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Vandal-1
Only jobs that are security sensitive should have the right to petition for such information regardless of the crime.upon release the debt is paid and a "Don't ask,don't tell "policy should be the way.This problem is a outgrowth of the big brother syndrome.Albert I work in the Oilfield Ive had some good hands that are ex-cons our scrutiny is on how a man performs his duties not wether or not he was a choir boy in a former life.
The big brother syndrome is caused by controle
freaks who are threatened by any potential risk. I personally would put a man who committed a armed assault in a security position over a Dudly Doright typr since I know he has the Huevos to handle a gunfight,and the other man is untestested.

its their money. they're obliged to be threataned in ne way they see fit.

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 23:54

I think what can be gotten out of this so far is that the sympathy rate for violent criminals is pretty low.

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 23:55

Vandal-1:

maybe thats a good solution... dont ask dont tell... i just figured that big brotherism was inevitable so you might as well make due with it and try to encourage businesses to hire them...

and verto... yeah he needs some luck but he's managing... but there's several more who are in tighter squeezes cause they got kids and all that too... they need every bit of luck they can get.

thanks

Nubclear · August 11, 2003, 23:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Tassadar:

and what happens to that man when he is refused at every job he applies for?

Oh well. Quite frankly isn't not my problem. It's not my problems that he shot multiple people and therefore has lost the trust of society. It's his fault, and his problem.
I'm just saying he has no place in my ficticious "business".

Al B. Sure! · August 11, 2003, 23:57

Tass:

what happens is that he goes right back to the only life he knows and the only way he can make a buck... and you'll end up being that one behind the barrel of his 45... it does no good for society to have the cycle of crime continue.

yavoon · August 11, 2003, 23:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Vandal-1:

maybe thats a good solution... dont ask dont tell... i just figured that big brotherism was inevitable so you might as well make due with it and try to encourage businesses to hire them...

and verto... yeah he needs some luck but he's managing... but there's several more who are in tighter squeezes cause they got kids and all that too... they need every bit of luck they can get.

thanks

I'm not a huge fan of rampant sealing. anyone who wishes to deny u information thinks he knows better than u. the fight for freedom of information shouldn't be handed over quite so easily.

I'd prefer a much more moderated approach.