One of the most important political issues of mine... - Page 2

Nubclear · August 11, 2003, 23:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Tass:

what happens is that he goes right back to the only life he knows and the only way he can make a buck... and you'll end up being that one behind the barrel of his 45... it does no good for society to have the cycle of crime continue.

Yes, so lets give him access to dangerous medicines so he can kill people in secret

:) Smiley · August 12, 2003, 00:03

Have some government jobs available for ex-cons.

The real problem though isn't so much reformed convicts having problems finding jobs though. It's that many of them never reform.

Al B. Sure! · August 12, 2003, 00:08

Smiley:

thats the thing... someone gets out of jail after a 5 year sentence and now can't get a job... let's just say he was a drug dealer and was making a pretty good amount of money til he got locked up... now, he's having trouble getting a job, even ones that pay minimum wage... it don't take much for him to go right back into crime where the hours are shorter and the pay is better... the problem aint that many criminals never reform... the problem is many never get the chance to reform.

Vandal-1 · August 12, 2003, 00:24

Yes Redicence is like 50 to 80% on addictions and offenders with borderline to psychotic conditions,but that does not make the wrongly convicted or truely reformed 20-50% unviable,especially if they are in enviroments that do not gestate crime through poverty and dehumanization.
Execute 1st degreee killers and take them out of the equation like the common law mandates and I don,t know create a organization that supports these men when they are in need like there gangs do.something like AA or NA keep some guidance in their lives. I know I ll be attaked but the churches in America used to somewhat do this and it is a religouse issue to christians since we believe that we will only recieve mercy if we render it and that we are all sinners just some of us got caught by the law so that we could be convicted in our hearts and therefore atone repent and change.

Timexwatch · August 12, 2003, 01:25

Speer: Have you ever worked with ex-cons, much less ex-cons convicted of violent offenses? It's not pretty. The guys I've worked with are often angry, unfocused and flakey. They're often late, bring their problems into work, steal a bit, have poor communications skills and other things. If I was a business owner, I wouldn't hire an ex-con unless he had a laundry list of reputable references behind him since he got of jail.

I'm a bit cynical. Maybe Lincoln or somebody else involved in corrections could shed some more light on the subject?

The Mad Monk · August 12, 2003, 03:19

Albert, I think tax breaks for hiring ex-cons is a fine idea. Don't work-release programs offer something similar to employers?

tandeetaylor · August 12, 2003, 04:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher

Less tax money for my public healthcare.

Why don't we give businesses tax breaks for hiring white boys too? How does that "effect" you?

HEY HEY HEY guys, it's "affect."

And I don't see why they should get tax breaks. Regular people need jobs too.

tandeetaylor · August 12, 2003, 04:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Tassadar:

and what happens to that man when he is refused at every job he applies for?

He's forced to resort to rape.

DRoseDARs · August 12, 2003, 04:55

I stopped reading posts 'bout 6-7 down from the top, but I'll add my two cents: My lady friend Marshe was convicted of some crime or another in her younger teens. She went through her sentence just fine. She has since been a model citizen and a damn hard worker. Marshe has had some trouble with her record coming back up, but she has done pretty well for herself. I don't know if she plans on going to college, but there really isn't anything stopping her beyond working.

Rufus T. Firefly · August 12, 2003, 07:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Timexwatch
Speer: Have you ever worked with ex-cons, much less ex-cons convicted of violent offenses? It's not pretty. The guys I've worked with are often angry, unfocused and flakey. They're often late, bring their problems into work, steal a bit, have poor communications skills and other things. If I was a business owner, I wouldn't hire an ex-con unless he had a laundry list of reputable references behind him since he got of jail.

I'm a bit cynical. Maybe Lincoln or somebody else involved in corrections could shed some more light on the subject?

This is more-or-less what I was going to say. The problem is that a lot of cons are cons because they have values that are antithetical to holding down a job: they don't care about rules, they're focused only on themselves and their own gain, etc.

(Actually, I should have said "holding down a low-level job," since the description I wrote fits corporate CEOs perfectly. But then, a lot of them end up as cons.)

The other thing to consider is how people get jobs to begin with. Something like 90% of all job openings in the US are never advertisied; the jobs are filled some other way, usually by word of mouth. In other words, the easiest way to get a job is to know people who can get you a job. Needless to say, this puts cons (and anyone else forced to resort to the classifieds) at a real disadvantage.

That being said, I think the tax break idea is a good one.

DanielXY · August 12, 2003, 07:50

I think the german system is working good with records and stuff:
- first time offenders = no record (excluding everything you would get more than 2 years for - first time thats only, murder, rape, kidnapping, and such)
- You have the right to lie about your record if asked and the job is in no way connected to the type of crime (if you robbed a bank you dont have to tell on your construction job)
- after 7 years each entry in record gets deleted (in the public record

)

Al B. Sure! · August 12, 2003, 11:07

Timex:

i opened the thread saying i knew many ex-cons and i even work with some... i'm not seeing them do anything but be good employees... if anything, they seem too good for their mcdonalds jobs...

anyway, what about my other question... why has no politician ever cared about this issue? seems like it is morally right and it reduces crime... two pluses and seemingly no negatives...

yavoon · August 12, 2003, 14:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Timex:

i opened the thread saying i knew many ex-cons and i even work with some... i'm not seeing them do anything but be good employees... if anything, they seem too good for their mcdonalds jobs...

anyway, what about my other question... why has no politician ever cared about this issue? seems like it is morally right and it reduces crime... two pluses and seemingly no negatives...

no negaitves? are u insane? how do u politically explain refusing to tell someone that another person is a violent criminal. he gets a job and stabs a pregnant employee to death. how well do u think fox news will play that?

if u r going to refuse ppl information and say that u know better then them. and they end up getting shanked, then ur ass is on the frying pan soto speak.

Al B. Sure! · August 12, 2003, 20:19

again... the only reason why there's repeat offenders is because they can't get a good job with a criminal record so they resort back to crime... get them jobs and they won't commit more crime.

Verto · August 12, 2003, 20:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
again... the only reason why there's repeat offenders is because they can't get a good job with a criminal record so they resort back to crime... get them jobs and they won't commit more crime.

I'm not buying that. I'd say it's somewhere in the middle. Some would stop, if they could get a job, but not every one of them.

Worthingtons · August 12, 2003, 21:07

Everyone needs a 2nd Chance.

The German system is good, but not perfect - Employers do need a little more protection.

You should be able to work off convictions by spending good years once out, after 5-6 clean years the record should drop off. After 1 clean year businesses should be encouraged to employ(maybe through tax breaks as speer suggested) these folk and help them reform.

St Leo · August 12, 2003, 21:13

The problem is that a lot of cons are cons because they have values that are antithetical to holding down a job: they don't care about rules, they're focused only on themselves and their own gain, etc.

Stop saying those things about conservatives. Not all of them are like that. Don't let a few bad apples twist your view of them all.

David Floyd · August 12, 2003, 23:54

I have absolutely 0 sympathy for criminals. Oh, they're reformed? Well congratulations. Good for them.

But I think I won't take any chances - there are plenty of people out there WITHOUT felony convictions who need jobs. Once all of those lower risk people have jobs, maybe we can think about giving a job to a convicted felon. But I guarantee you that it will NOT be a job that involves handling large amounts of money, financial records, or anything else where it would be easy and/or tempting to steal.

Al B. Sure! · August 13, 2003, 00:03

i don't understand this... alright maybe an ex-con will rob from the company... or you could have him most definently rob the company at gunpoint when he realizes crime is the only way for him to make a living...

it seems to pointless to be against what i'm arguing for... at worst, you get the same result you'd get if these ex-cons went right back into crime.

David Floyd · August 13, 2003, 00:06

Quote:

or you could have him most definently rob the company at gunpoint when he realizes crime is the only way for him to make a living...

Look. Immoral behavior has consequences. One of those consequences may be having a hard time getting a job, as a result of your behavior. But these consequences are your own fault, and don't justify more immoral behavior. Immorality doesn't justify more immorality.

Al B. Sure! · August 13, 2003, 00:15

what are you talking about? i'm talking about the practical effects of ****... you just got out of jail, paid your debt to society, and now can't get a job... what the hell do you do? if you can get a good job though, don't you think maybe you'd never get into crime again because 1) you dont want to and 2) you have no economic need to because you got a good job you like.

you talk about these abstract things too much... it is more pratical to cut down on crime by giving these guys jobs...

yavoon · August 13, 2003, 00:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
what are you talking about? i'm talking about the practical effects of ****... you just got out of jail, paid your debt to society, and now can't get a job... what the hell do you do? if you can get a good job though, don't you think maybe you'd never get into crime again because 1) you dont want to and 2) you have no economic need to because you got a good job you like.

you talk about these abstract things too much... it is more pratical to cut down on crime by giving these guys jobs...

what happens when they get arrested again. a job is nice, but minimum wage dont compare to pushing crack. wut u going to do when an employer gets his store robbed from the inside cuz u made it illegal for him to access information.

to my knowledge crap ass jobs are easy to get. will an excon want a job that sux over a gangsta life tho?

David Floyd · August 13, 2003, 00:22

Quote:

what are you talking about? i'm talking about the practical effects of ****... you just got out of jail, paid your debt to society, and now can't get a job... what the hell do you do?

Good question. Maybe the felon should have thought about that before knocking over the local 7-11.

Quote:

if you can get a good job though, don't you think maybe you'd never get into crime again because 1) you dont want to and 2) you have no economic need to because you got a good job you like.

I don't know. It's a possibility that a good job means one will not commit crime. However, this does not really mirror reality - plenty of people with "good jobs" commit crimes. And what does "not wanting to" have to do with anything? Just because you want to commit a crime doesn't justify actually committing the crime. And economic need? Are you really trying to justify committing more crimes, just because, as a result of your previous crimes, you are facing economic hardship?

Quote:

you talk about these abstract things too much... it is more pratical to cut down on crime by giving these guys jobs...

No, the best way for us to cut down on crime is for each of us to make a personal decision not to commit criminal acts, regardless of what we want to do. It isn't my responsibility to stop you from stealing - it's your responsibility not to steal.

Al B. Sure! · August 13, 2003, 00:48

i'm lost... someone made a mistake and they've now paid for it by being in jail... what ever happened to forgiveness and helping (or maybe i should say letting [ie- businesses need workers anyway]) someone get back on track so they never do crime again...

CorpusScorpius · August 13, 2003, 01:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
i'm lost... someone made a mistake and they've now paid for it by being in jail... what ever happened to forgiveness and helping (or maybe i should say letting [ie- businesses need workers anyway]) someone get back on track so they never do crime again...

AS.........the problem is that it only takes a few individuals to ruin it for the rest of the parolees/ x-cons........The individuals who are trying to keep their act together are punished.......Is it fair No but thats the way it is. If Lifes not Fair to people that stay out of trouble what makes you think that Life will be Fair to X-Cons..........

yavoon · August 13, 2003, 01:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
i'm lost... someone made a mistake and they've now paid for it by being in jail... what ever happened to forgiveness and helping (or maybe i should say letting [ie- businesses need workers anyway]) someone get back on track so they never do crime again...

forgiveness and helping are alive. they're just not gov't mandates enforced by suppressing information.

Al B. Sure! · August 13, 2003, 01:37

alright damn... how about my original point? tax breaks?

DanielXY · August 13, 2003, 08:28

@hardliners
Just look at it from an economic POV:
a) Make it hard for Xcons to get a job - more will again commit crime. economic Results: The economic loss from the crime, costs for police, courts, prison.
b) Make it easy for Xcons to get a job - more will not commit crime again. economic Results: new productive member of society, no costs.

Think about the money folks!

Rufus T. Firefly · August 13, 2003, 09:19

Albert - here's why the hardliners here have a point, AND your tax break idea is a good one: it's a classic risk-reward problem.

By the time criminals have been released from prison, hiring them is a risk; they have already revealed themselves to be capable of and willing to commit crimes, and in all likelihood prison has served to reinforce their criminality, not reform it (that's a problem with the culture of prisons, but that's not the point here.)

Okay, so hiring an ex-con is a big risk -- so big that some people here say they would never do it. But what they mean by that is that the reward for doing it -- the potential reform of one criminal -- is not worth the risk they would be required to take on. So the key is to make that risk more attractive. That's why your idea seems good to me. Whether or not it would work is another question; I would take it even further, and allow preference in awarding government contracts to those firms who hire ex-cons.

Jack_www · August 13, 2003, 10:27

THe reason why there is no way to know weather an ex-con is "refromed" or not. Second the employment market is not so good for someone looking for a job, bussiness are really picky about hiring people.
ALso I think people could care less about ex-cons that cant find jobs.