RED FRONT ROCKS

Michael Daumen · November 19, 1999, 22:40

although I question why the fascists need to move first if the computer is playing them. after all the trouble nemo went to getting them to act, well, like fascists, he could have saved programming/playtesting time, event space, and MY time watching the first turn over and over again by having them be where he wanted them to be at the end of June.

A lot of the good Soviet units have already moved during the first turn. I seem to spend a lot of time buying stuff the first turn as well.

------------------
Michael Daumen

"the future is not yet"

Captain Nemo · November 19, 1999, 23:10

A good point, however I really wanted the Germans to start where they were on the 22nd of June 1941 before Barbarossa began (Historic accuracy?) The Soviets only started reacting after the first 8 days when the Germans were already deep inside Russia...so they really shouldn't move until July. They were caught by surprise and totally unprepared for the attack (Though Richard Sorge had given them the exact date of the invasion!).
The first turn ends up being a disheartening experience for the Soviet player (As will be every turn until December 1941!) But a lot of decisions made during the summer of 1941 are critical to the later play. (Like saving critical units for the defense of Moscow/Leningrad and scheduling production for the later years).

techumseh · November 20, 1999, 04:16

Congratulations to Captain Nemo on what looks, after three turns of play, to be one of the best scenarios ever done. Well done!

Civfan · November 20, 1999, 04:45

WOW.... only one word can describe this scenario.. Perfection.... This is I believe one of they best out there..... After that first Turn which took close to 15 minutes, it looks good.... Not a huge fan of ww2 scenarios, but the units, terrian and the use of multiple and seasonal events and terrian are good.......... A great scenario indeed........

.......Civfan

DarthVeda · November 20, 1999, 08:47

This is why I pretty much dropped my scenario project. Red Front is so perfect it just puts me to shame

Now if only I can figure out how to get the damned @LEADER2 to work in ToT...

Captain Nemo · November 21, 1999, 18:13

Who has some feedback about the gameplay?
Anybody still alive by the winter of 1942-43?
I have played the game multiple times and I know how to survive the initial onslaught but I don't know whether someone not familiar with the scenario would do.
Is it too difficult? Too easy? Has anyone found a problem or error? Any suggestions?

Here is one proposal from Alex and me:
The Soviet Guard regiments were only formed late in 1941 from troops that had fared well during the summer. How about two units both called "Red Army", same graphic, same statistics undistinguishable to the Human player, only the "regular" type can be built. The "future" Red Guards are mixed in with the regular Red Army units in Western Ukraine/Baltics/Crimea etc... When the winter rolls around all survivors from that group are promoted to "Red Guards" in the new rules/units file and also become available in the build menu.
This would add a little twist in the beginning of the first winter and create an incentive for the human player to try to save as many Red Army units as possible.

techumseh · November 21, 1999, 19:27

Nemo, I'm to January of '41. The Germans are at the gates of Leningrad and Moscow. Where are the Siberian reinforcements for my counter-offensive? I sure need them! There were at least 7 new armies raised for the Moscow counterattack by the end of November. The Soviets also made use of significant numbers of paratroops in their first winter offensive.

I suggest winter begin in November instead of December. The mud was even more of an obstacle than snow.

How did you get the "moveunit" event to work? I've always believed that it didn't.

I think the Guards (not "Red Guards") unit idea is very good, as long as new guard units can be constructed after December too.
The trend during the war was for a larger percent of the Soviet forces (including cavalry, tank and air force units) to be given "guard" status.

November 21, 1999, 23:39

I loved it too. I've gotten to about Winter '43, and the Germans are still going. I really hope there's something to make it easier for the Russians later, or I'm going to be crushed. Which is a great feeling after the normal game

techumseh · November 22, 1999, 00:53

I'm into May '42 now. The Siberian reinforcements should arrive in Nov and Dec '41. The Soviets should be taking the offensive during the first winter, but I was only able to launch local counter attacks, mainly with the partisans. I think the ebb and flow of the campaign would be better simulated if the reinforcements came earlier, as they did historicaly.

Now it's summer of '42 and the German drive on Stalingrad. More reports from the front later.

Kull · November 22, 1999, 02:10

Damn you Nemo!

I had lots of plans for this weekend, and Red Front put them on the back-burner! WOW, what a scenario! The unit graphics are simply gorgeous. When the first winter hit, I spent at least 30 minutes just marveling at all the changes. My compliments to Alex. He has REALLY outdone himself this time!

The German offensive is outstanding. By the first snow (I kept praying for it to arrive early!), I was backed up to most of the historical stopping points. Still had a few forward outposts, but only because the Germans were delayed by a serious scorched earth policy.

And I must have a little Stalin in me, cause he would have been proud of my inhumane treatment of the refugees.

Tank bait, one and all. If only i'd known they turn into useful laborers! Well, it's summer again, and God only knows how I'll make it to next winter!

Suggestion: In the Readme, you need to HEAVILY emphasize that almost every unit has changed funtionality come winter time. My pet peeve was the PE-2 Bomber. It's movement changes from two turns to one turn! I had 3 drop like rocks when I left them sitting over some advanced positions. Argh!

That said, it's clearly one of the best scenarios ever. Congratulations!

Captain Nemo · November 22, 1999, 07:58

Great reports!

It looks like the Germans are doing what they are supposed to... Regarding the reinforcements for the winter of 1941-42, I thought that they would come from 2 sources, the Siberian regiments arriving in the East AND the human player starting to get his first load of T-34's from his own effort in building up the Ural region. If that second part is ignored the human player will only be able to do a little counter-attacking. I originally had the Siberian arriving in the first turn of winter but with my knowledge of playing the game I was able to drive far into German held positions the first winter which is not historical. (I got as far as Minsk and Kiev).
I will move up the Siberian troops arrival one month and give them a T-34/turn also.

Regarding the tide turning it is mostly the human players doing, ie building up the Ural region, building all the wonders, and getting the new tougher units. The Lend-Lease program is excellent help if you can get the ships through. I just built 2 wonders and 2 ammo-plants from scratch in one turn with Supply convoys (Winter 1942-43). Some wonders are fantastic help (Convoys, Zhukov, Tankograd and Labor Front)
and will cause the Soviet economy to go into overdrive (This is historical). Also in 1943-1945 I stop helping the Germans via event files.
Without help the AI is easy bait for the human player!
The Red Army > Guards switch will definitely be in the next version...That should also give the Soviets a boost in the first winter month...

Which technology route did each of you follow?

What did the Germans go for? My current game they went whacky on got FW-190's before anything else... By winter 1942-43 they stll don't have Einsatz Kommando's or extra SS-regiments...

Did anyone see the Germans use the siege mortars on Leningrad or Sevastopol? I have had a heck of a time with that unit...The AI simply refuses to use it despite fantastic stats.

Continued good luck, Komrades...

Captain Nemo · November 22, 1999, 14:09

Techumseh:

The MoveUnit command is very fussy and I don't believe I completely mastered it but here are some tricks:

1. First the area selection square needs to be upperleft>upperright>lowerright>lowerleft otherwise, no luck.

2. If the route to the target location passes "through" an enemy city the command appears to be "redirected" to that city.

3. Units that are entrenched or already going somewhere won't be "redirected" so if for example you have this command: 10,20,40,20,40,30,10,30 -> 35,25
followed by:
30,20,40,20,40,30,30,30 -> 45,25
which would progressively advances units towards the right of the map, all the units end up fortified in 35,25 and the second command never gets them out of there. This is because the first command square includes its own destination location so the units at 35,25 are told each turn, before the second command is issued, to goto 35,25.

4. The repeated move commands (each turn, based on a tech advance) continues to "catch" units as they become un-entrenched or reach their final destination so it's more effective than a "one-shot" move command.

5. By using tech flags like "Operation Blau" to trigger the movements you can be creative for example moving reinforcements up to a start city over several turns with a genral move command then triggering a new move of all those units by giving a technology.

But, there is still a whole lot of weird stuff going on with the moves and the AI does issue it's own move command too. So the event file moves are only setting some "general" guidelines for movement.

Watch out for move and create commands with odd-even locations coordinates...I had a few of them (Of course odd-even location coordinates don't exist on the Civ2 map) and the units move into "The Twilight Zone" another dimension where they can't be seen but they can attack and do exert zones of control. They can capture your cities in the other dimension without killing your units and you end up with "dual possession" of the city! Very weird results!

techumseh · November 22, 1999, 14:43

My experience was the opposite, I killed the mortars with naval units before they could get to Sevastapol, but at Leningrad they attacked repeatedly, retreating before I could get them.

I'm now at July '43, still losing ground. I lost both Leningrad and Stalingrad in summer '42. I attempted a counter attack at Stalingrad, but couldn't build up my forces enough during the winter. I attacked in the spring but was completely routed by an immediate German counter offensive.

Is there some compromise possible on the railways? The strategic movement is too slow. If the roads are intended to represent railways, then a higher road movement rate is suitable. Railways were usable in mud and winter conditions also. Perhaps they should retain some movement advantage during winter turns.

Of all the elements of this superb game, the one which is most frustrating is the Murmansk convoys. It is impossible to adequately protect a convoy since U-boats are re-created in squares which were just cleared by destroyers. And since one U-boat can kill the strongest escort vessel (cruiser), the entire convoy is wiped out. Historicaly, this only happened once, to convoy PQ-17.

I have a couple of suggestions. If destroyers could be made to withstand at least one attack from a U-boat, then all escort vessels would have to be attacked more than once for the convoy to be destroyed. It would be similar to the use of several AEGIS crusers to defend a fleet against cruise missiles in a regular game.

I don't think you'll like the second one, but here goes. Would it be possible to put some terrain feature like fortifications or airbases on the sea squares along the convoy route? That way naval units would be sunk one at a time, instead of all at once. Just a thought!

Back to the game!

Overdrive · November 22, 1999, 20:40

I just spend the whole weekend on Red Front and reached Summer 44! The following game was played on emperor mode:
-------------------------------------------
STAVKA Report July 31st 44

NORTH FRONT:

The Finns are broken and retreating. The liberation of Viipuri and other cities showed the last of the finnish fighting spirit. The Red Army stands in front of Helsinki.

A counter-offensive directed against Talinn from Leningrad Front hit heaviest resistance, namely the famed SS Tigers. The same fate hit the pincer movement out of Velikye L. towards Riga. Still the pressure is definetly off Leningrad, same for Kholm/Demyansk Area.

CENTRE FRONT:

A mighty offensive liberated the towns of Vitebsk and Smolensk while only rubble is left of Tula, which changed hands numerous times over the past 3 years. Moscow isn't threatened anymore and becomes now the new jump off point for my future strikes into German Territiory, thanks to the great road network out of the capital towards Demyansk and Vitebsk-Next stop Minsk.

SOUTH FRONT:

Voronezh isn't threatened anymore, thanks to the clean-up between Don and Upper Volga. Also Rostov fell at the beginning of the Summer. Red Army inverted the roles on the Kerch Peninsula and are pushing out the fascist forces.

The hated ennemy is definetly stopped-and running in many areas!

Congratulations again, I was amazed by the accuracy of what happened during the scenario:
-the initial pincer movements towards Minsk and Smolensk by Army Group Centre under von Bock, the massive attack into the Volga Bassin and Stalingrad
-the siege weapons were put into and out of action in front of Sebastopol, but never crossed the Narva/Luga/Novgorod Line around Leningrad (none of these towns were ever taken)
By the way: Leningrad never came under siege, I managed to keep Bryansk/Kursk till late 43, Tula became another Stalingrad, Stalingrad was under constant assault from 41 till summer 44 and some SS Panzer Divisions managed to cross the Volga towards Kuybyshev(?). I nearly managed to encircle whole army Group Centre (Minsk-Vitebisk-Smolensk) in early Summer 42.
A few ideas:
-I was able to build JS way to early (winter 43-44) and I had put it off for quite a while
-make mine fields faster to construct (i was never able to use it on tactical level, even much less on strategical)
-create event that transforms killed Red Guards into Shock Regts.????

Gorgeous Units!

[This message has been edited by Overdrive (edited November 22, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Overdrive (edited November 22, 1999).]

Kull · November 22, 1999, 20:43

One possible solution to the logistical nightmare of moving troops from the far east up to the Moscow area: Put in more Airports. At least then you can use airlift to move the troops up to the Leningrad-Moscow-Stalingrad line. It may not be completely historical, but it would simulate a low capacity railroad.

Game Hint: You can do airlifts from the UK to Murmansk...I haven't lost one yet!

Captain Nemo · November 22, 1999, 21:15

Good to find out what is happening so version 2 can be even better.

I am already working on a revision. So far I added the Red Army converting to Guards in December 1941. But it's tricky because the two units look identical and have the same name so there should be no way for the human player to distinguish them from eachother...
I also moved a couple of units around so the NKVD has the rifle sound and the Naval Infantry the machine gun - petty - but I want perfection!

Now regarding the comments:

The movement of units from the Ural region to the front should be facilitated by the "suburbs" along the main roads. I may add more to make it faster. I will consider raising the road multiplier to 2 in the winter as opposed to 3 in the summer but that gives the Soviet tanks almost as high mobility in the winter as in the summer...(2x7 vs 3x5) maybe make it 2x6 vs 3x5.
The Germans would also have increased mobility (2x4) so their offensive might not stall in December as it does now...

Regarding Murmansk convoys, I thought it was too easy to get the convoys through... I moved up along the left side of the map then cut acroos the top. I moved along a number of destroyers and cruisers which I had criss cross the area for U-boats. I killed a lot of them and the convoys got through without many losses (Maybe 5-6 freighters sunk for 15 or more that got through) Of course I grouped the freighters together before the run across the area North of Norway so I usually had 10-12 ships going through at once and I made sure that I never
had more than one ship per ocean square to avoid losing a whole stack. I keep the freighters along the top edge of the map and destroyers/cruisers one row below. The Ju-88s from Narvik and Hammerfest usually hit the escorts and I rarely encounter more than one sub so the losses are acceptable. With the "Convoy" wonder the ships can make it from safe ocean to the protection behind the Murmansk minefields with only one stop in the "Kill zone".

My game isn't going as well as it should either. I stopped the Germans in the winter of 1941-42, built very tough defenses around Leningrad and Stalingrad (Minefields) so both cities held. Rostov fell late summer of 1942 so I had to contend with lots of Germans in the Caucasus threatening all the oil fields (Didn't capture any though)
Sevastopol fell in the winter of 1942-43 as did Kerch so I have Germans infiltrating the Caucasus region over the Crimean straight too.

The counter-offensive in the winter of 1942-1943 which should have dispatched Paulus and the sixth army West of Stalingrad stalled mostly because my own minefields prevented direct attack (Had to go North through Voronezh). So right now it's a stalemate in the summer of 1943 with the Soviets holding the line Leningrad-Moscow-Stalingrad with only small enclaves towards the West at Kholm, Narva and Kursk and the Germans holding Luga, Kharkov and Rostov. Kaluga changed hands 4 times during the winter-spring 1943. By not winning the battle of Stalingrad the "Zhukov" wonder is lost which slows research, but the Soviets are starting to inch ahead economically and militarily with new T-34/85, Katuysha launchers and IL-2 planes.

My conclusion is that the Stalingrad battle can't be won by an average player in the winter of 1942 unless I give the Soviets a boost (Maybe a new Guard tank division,with 12 veteran units appearing near Stalingrad when the text about the Zhukov "counter-
offensive" comes up?)
Or should I leave that as a tough challenge?

To "destroy" the 6th army the Soviet player must slice through the bulk of the German army south of Voroshilovgrad and destroy the Fieldmarshal (Paulus) unit located in it's center and protected by multiple rows of "hedgehog" units... Did anyone succeed?

Back to the spring of 1943...awaiting operation "Citadel" and the first Panthers and Tigers to show up at Kursk.

Mao · November 22, 1999, 21:36

OK, I heard Red Front was very good. I don't have ToT, but is ToT worth getting for the Red Front scenario?

November 22, 1999, 22:06

Ummm... how DO you stop the inital onslaught?

mrtemba · November 22, 1999, 22:09

Mao - It doesn't require TOT. I think its FW.

I like the Elite Guard idea, I think it should be used. I haven't done much playing as one turn takes about 5 minutes, but I look forward to when I have the time.

Civfan · November 22, 1999, 22:59

Mr Nemo, how much time was spent in making this scenario?

Unspeakable Horror · November 23, 1999, 01:27

The siege mortars were used in Sevastopol and destroyed mi defense, but i managed to counterstrike with some tanks, and in Leningrad they appeared but didn´t attack.

Captain Nemo · November 23, 1999, 08:04

Just misc. answers:

In 1941 the Soviets could not stop the Germans... Same happens in the scenario. The best that can be done is salvage the best Soviet units to defend Moscow and Leningrad, fight rear guard actions to slow down the Germans, try to make each move as costly as possible for them with tough city defenses and sacrificial counter-attacks against their best units, selling off city improvements before the Germans capture them and move as much of the population as possible to the East (Refugee units). Only when winter comes, in December 1941 the Germans advance stalls by itself... and the Soviets can go on a limited counter-offensive, spend the winter consolidating positions etc...

The scenario took about 6 months to make... and a lot of time. There is probably 500 hours or more into graphic work between myself and Alex. For example, it took me 6 hours to make the "winter-forest" pictures alone. An average unit takes 2-3 hours some as much 4 or 5 when I had to restart from scratch.

The game is made for the FW version of Civ-2

The new version in the works has no Guards until December 1941 then all surviving veteran Red Army units are promoted to Guards. There are a few more NKVD units from the start of the game to make up for the lack of Guards early on. Another new element is that the 2nd Panzer Army (Guderian) now has it's own tougher, faster units for the summer of 1941. This should make the pressure on Moscow in October-November 1941 a real threat. I am also adding many new events for 1943 and 1944 and incorporating several of the suggestions in the thread.

Thanks for playing!

techumseh · November 23, 1999, 11:23

CN, wil you keep your original idea of 2 slots for the red army units? If not, won't all your garrisons in the rear will be promoted to guards? Wil you still be able to produce red army units?

BTW, I've figured out how to use the convoy system. Once you've built the wonder, it works fine.

Overdrive · November 23, 1999, 11:55

Why not add a few Heroes (generals, famous units etc...)for the soviet player, it always feels more personal!
I am going to start all over on deity mode...even though I never succeded in pushing the german Forces further West than Helsinki-Talinn-Vellikye L.-Minsk-Kharkov- Stalino-Sebastopol on emperor. But now I know how to react.
I never met any von Paulus though!
[This message has been edited by Overdrive (edited November 23, 1999).]

Captain Nemo · November 23, 1999, 14:37

Yes, I am using 2 slots for the Red Army, when I said "veteran" units I meant units that have been around since the beginning of the game... I replayed the first round and it's even worse than before. Without the guards to stop them, the Germans really move fast!

I would love to add some special "character" units to the Soviet side, like Zhukov, Vasilevski, Rokossovsky and Budenny. And maybe some "Aces" like Pokryshkin and of course a Zaitsev sniper unit...but where do I fit them? The unit slots are all used up and I have already been creative in "re-using" some slots. For example the I-16 to La-5 conversion, the Guderian panzers later being used as "Elephant" units and now also the new T-34/85 Guard regiments appearing by 1942 in the obsolete T-26 slot.

Captain Nemo · November 23, 1999, 18:36

A little more insight into the game... March 1944 the turnaround is really slow despite very little event help to the Germans.
I managed to punch through at Kholm, Velikiye Luki, Daugavpils and retake Kharkov but it is incredibly costly in units because the Germans have Panthers and Tigers at hand and a massive number of hedgehogs blocking all the roads...

Operation Citadel (Kursk) was twarted in the summer of 1943, really showing how poor the AI is once the Soviets have decent units: He sent wave after wave of Tigers and Panthers against Voronezh defended by a handful of KV-1's. The attack self destructed very quickly, but it was a nice "tank battle" seen from the Soviet side.

I should probably give the Soviets some mobile anti aircraft gun with attack capability since the Germans keep those fighters airborne over their units during the whole winter! I tried to give them only one move but then the entire Luftwaffe crashes...Maybe changing them all to role 3 with one move will make them go home... Any insight?

There is still a problem with the Germans overflowing their finances, has anyone noticed it? By 1943, capturing a city gives you plunder of -29,000 gold.
I have added "Concentration camps" costing 50 to maintain (I used SDI since there are no nukes) and the Germans build them in every city... Maybe I need to up the maintenance cost to 75 or 100!

One interesting feature I discovered, the trade routes! When those Supply Convoys from England arrive I was originally using them to build wonders or disbanding them to build units/improvements but then I tried establishing a trade route... Since the units have no home town they use the arrival town as trade origination town also so you get 2 trade routes in one shot and they are the biggest trade bonus I have ever seen: Baku-Baku produces 2 x 48 trade arrows!! (Of course Baku is the highest trade potential town in the game). By using a few of the lend-lease convoys that way I got research interval down from 7 turns to 4 turns.

Mao · November 23, 1999, 19:52

Oh my GOD! It's for FW!? I was getting depressed that everyone had this scenario and I couldn't play with because I didn't have ToT. I had scenario-envy

. Downloading now...

Captain Nemo · November 23, 1999, 20:39

Overdrive:
Getting the JS-2 in the winter of 1943-44 is 100% historical (I just had to check to be sure) By December 1943, 103 JS-2 were operational and by the spring of 1944 the Soviets had nearly 1,000 of them... By May 1945 they had produced almost 4,000 (Nothing compared to the 44,000 T-34s, though). The Germans should have Tigers by December 42, first Tiger saw action on the Eastern front in February 1943, Panthers by June-July 43 just in time for Kursk.

Captain Nemo · November 24, 1999, 15:14

Overdrive:

I'm very happy to see someone enjoying my scenario enough to play it twice in a row! I think it's quite addictive myself, having played it 10-12 times to various points.

Some version 2 updates:

The siege mortars now work consistently.

I stopped giving the Germans "free" aircraft by the winter of 1942-43. It was just too much help and it seems I lost all Soviet planes in the first turn of each spring.

I tested the Volksturm units and they are really awesome! They are land-based "suicide" units that will jump out of the German cities and kill adjacent tanks/troops. Right now they only appear when the Soviets capture Warsaw (Preparing to invade Germany)

Making the German planes single turn airborne, role 3 and 0 attack worked perfectly. They returned to base and weren't seen until next spring.

Soviet air power still seems weak by 1944. The Germans still have approx. 80-90 planes and the soviets only 10-12. The La-5 fighters are incapable of defending airborne bombers adequately against Me-109s so the bombers are on "suicide mission" every time they hit German units. Should the La-5 automatically upgrade to a Yak-3 in the winter of 1942-43 to indicate the improvements in Soviet pilot training?

New Soviet Tank Guard regiments appear just before Stalingrad and give the Soviets a real boost and a realistic chance to win the battle of Stalingrad.

New winter uniforms were added by Alex for the last few units that didn't change between winter and summer.

I could simulate a German collapse late in the war by giving the Germans a technology that causes some of their units to become obsolete, for example on the fall of Berlin issue an tech that would make the Wehrmacht SG obsolete (The AI immediately disbands obsolete units).

techumseh · November 25, 1999, 00:12

Nice game! I finished mine, with a decisive defeat to my credit. I held Moscow, recaptured Leningrad and only got as far as Grozny. The Germans penetrated as far as Magnitogorsk in the south-centre. It was a stalemate at the end, having lost so many cities, my production was insufficient to defeat the Germans.

Next game, I will try:

-build fortifications at strategic points in the rear right away

-put as many units with good defense factors in them as possible, force the Germans to lose units attacking them. Meanwhile build up the next defense position farther to the rear.

-withdraw ALL good troops to the east right away to a line in front of Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh, Stalingrad, Grozny, and Sevastapol.

-airlift units from UK to Soviet airports.

-use the British freight units earlier to build various wonders. Build suitable wonders in the UK using the freight units.

-research propellants early to build Katyuska rocket launchers; they are the most effective and reliable offensive weapon.

I'm ready for a rematch!