RED FRONT ROCKS - Page 2

techumseh · November 25, 1999, 00:55

Here are my suggestions for version two:

-partisan activity is insufficient, and should not be limited to the Pripyat marshes. I don't know if you have any more events space available, but if you do, this would be a good use for it.

-Yugoslav partisans don't work at all. They are far too few and start next to major cities where they are destroyed before they can even move. Tito's partisans tied down more German divisions than the British and American armies in Italy.

-I suggest a separate rules file for the '41 winter only. The Germans were very vulnerable in the first winter only, they didn't make the same mistake again. Their units should be even weaker in the first winter, allowing the Soviet player to counter attack more effectively.

-A dialogue box about the Finnish peace offer should be included at the end of the winter '43 events instead of at the beginning of the summer '44 events. The Finns ask for peace immediately after the reload, before the message is displayed.

-Historicaly, the Soviets had naval units in the Baltic sea, based at Kronstad. They included a couple of old battleships, cruisers, destroyers and subs. The Soviets made a large scale naval evacuation of Tallin. The Germans eventualy used mines to restrict the Soviet Baltic Fleet so that they could use their own fleet against the British. I suggest renaming Narva and put one of those fixed bunkers in it. Make it produce naval infantry instead of Leningrad. If there's enought events space, create German mines in the Gulf of Finland in August.

-In the Black sea, the Germans had some naval units: a couple of old Romanian destroyers, some merchant shipping and a few small U-boats brought in via the Danube canal system.

-Cheaper Red Airforce units. There was a big draw off of Luftwaffe forces to defend the Reich from '44 on. Soviet aircraft production was high, and they achieved air superiority during the Kusk battles of '43.

-I also had repeated problems when capturing German cities with my finances being screwed up. At the end of the game I looked at the German map and almost all cities were on capitalization. Something radical has to be done to reduce German money, especially in '44 and '45. Maybe an event based on the D-day invasion.

That's it!
[This message has been edited by techumseh (edited November 25, 1999).]

Overdrive · November 25, 1999, 01:26

Sept 41 (deity)
------------------
The Rodina is in great danger!
German Panzer Armies have reached most of our important industrial centers in Western USSR.
Although two small counter-offensives, executed by hastily brought up tank corps, stopped the ennemy momentarily between Khar'kov and Voroshilovgrad, STAVKA expects further territorial losses.
So to say no troops are left for defense. Vellikyie Luki and Kholm are under constant attacks from the Luftwaffe,Vitebsk encircled without hope for relief or outbreak. At least 10 mechanized divisions stand waiting to crush Smolensk.
In the South, Odessa surrendered, Nikolaev is under siege, Kherson changed hands twice already and Zaporozhie is destroying its installations.
Let's hope for an early Rasputsitsa!

Captain Nemo · November 25, 1999, 08:07

Techumseh:
Very good feedback... Many of your complaints are answered in version II here are some of them:

Partisan activity increased dramatically in the winter of 1943-44. Also the re-capture of Kiev causes the partisan units to be "integrated" into the Red army as free veteran Guard units.

The Yugoslav partisans seemed to work in my game at least I saw them harassing the Germans for about a Year. I will add more, however, since they are "Barbarians" I don't really want them to be around when the Red Army gets into Yugoslavia because they will attack the Soviet player too, of course.
The re-capture of Minsk now causes a large uprising of Soviet controlled partisans around Warsaw, even gave them some Machine guns and light artillery to simulate the major fight the Polish underground army put up in Warsaw when the Soviets were approaching.

The winter of 41 idea is good, I am even considering leaving in the regular Wehrmacht soldiers in summer uniform to show that the Germans were without proper gear that first winter... The revised aviation rules (See above) also changes the picture a lot, the Germans no longer protect their ground units with Me-109 so they are easy bait for the T-34s.

I will move the Finnish dialogue box... I also got a stupid "peacenik" message about getting rid of my nuclear weapons (They are the forts) I changed that message to something different.

If I add Kronstadt it will be an island off the coast because Narva is too important a stepping stone to Leningrad. I could give the Soviets battleships too. It would require removing the Nazi navy flag from the icon. Events for summer 1941 through summer 42 are completely full...after that there is plenty of space. The mining of the Baltic would have to be delayed until the winter of 1942-43... The easiest I can do is throw in a couple of Soviet cruisers in Leningrad. If they venture out into the Baltic they won't last long, anyway.

I will add a few German destroyers and U-boat in the Black Sea (I have at least a couple of destroyers in 1941 but usually the Soviet cruisers take them out in the first turn when they come over to "look at" Sevastopol).

The Soviet airforce will be cheaper. Right now it's not worth building planes. Only the IL-2 can survive the onslaught of Me-109s because it doesn't have to stay airborne.

The Capitalization problem is very tricky... The rules do prevent the Germans from building capitalization but the AI does it anyway... I did create the new "Concentration Camp" improvement (SDI) really expensive to maintain (75 gold) and the Germans are convinced the Soviets have nukes (Fortifications) so they build them in every city! That eats up all their cash. Only trick is to remember to sell them when you capture a German city otherwise their drain the Soviet pocketbook too.

BTW regarding your strategy for the next game:

-airlift units from UK to Soviet airports
That's cheating IMHO and also according to the readme file

-use the British freight units earlier to build various wonders.
Build suitable wonders in the UK using the freight units.
That's a good idea, the wonders make all the difference especially

Convoy system, gets your convoys through

Labor front, gets the Soviet economy into the "black"

Tankograd, puts the research into overdrive (Though it requires sacrificing direct weapons research for 3 consecutive techs)

Electrification, explodes shield production
(Worth researching early)

Also the trick of using the 4-5 first Iran convoys to make trade routes to Baku, Grosnyy and Maikop is INVALUABLE! By 1944 those 3 cities alone produced 750 gold and over 1000 research!

On the other hand wonders (except convoy system) should not be built in the UK for historical accuracy (See readme file).

I am currently playing August 1944 Deity without cheating and using the convoys as intended, building wonders etc... I have massive research and shield production and produce about 20-25 high cost units per turn. I am about to complete the military research and Tankograd, but still have
only T34-85s and IL-2 planes, Katyusha's were my first research objective (As you noted they are deadly!) I stopped the Germans at Leningrad-Demyansk-Kalinin-Moscow-Kursk-Voronezh-Stalingrad-Maikop all cities to the West of that line fell. Luga to the East also fell. I lost Tikhvin to the Finns for a short time completely isolating Leningrad but it held. Now I have devised a reconquest strategy which involves building up large forces of T-34s, KV-1s and Katyushas protected by Lend-lease Halftracks
and then hopping from city to city hitting so hard that there are no Germans left to counterattack and allowing me not to loose many units. So far the Northern attack has taken Kholm, Velukiye Luki, Daugapils, Narva, Tallinn and Riga. Germans are completely trapped in Norgorod and Luga. In the South I hit Kharkov and Gomel.
My conclusion is that I can win the game as currently designed but I will let you know. The momentum has definitely shifted.

I did spend a lot of time building up the Ural production. Several small cities have productions over 50 shields and some at 70 or more. For example Vorkuta, size 5 produces 92 and spews out Katyushas at one per turn...logistical nightmare to get them back West but that's a lot of firepower.
Kirov, size 8, has 6 "industry" squares and produces 134 shields! That's any unit at a rate of 1 per turn!

techumseh · November 25, 1999, 11:02

Some final comments:

-Make the Yugoslav partisans Soviet rather than barbarian units. There could be a fun little "mini-game" in the Balkans. By the time the Red Army arrived, Tito had created a large regular army which linked up with the Soviets. They received British and Soviet aid and liberated most of Yugoslav territory themselves.

-Why not just delete the UK airport?

-Perhaps the machinegun unit should be a defensive unit.

Captain Nemo · November 26, 1999, 01:19

I thought about making the Yugoslav Partisans Soviet, but I think it would require a specific "Yugoslav Partisan" unit to avoid looking like a bunch of Soviet Partisans in the Balkans... Maybe I could obsolete the Laborer unit by the winter of 1942-43 and use the slot for the Yugoslav Partisan?

The UK airport was designed to make veteran planes capable of shooting down the Ju-88s and He-111 and killing the German subs... But I think it's a good idea to remove it lest ye be tempted to airlift units to the Soviet Union.

The Machine Gun is designer as a "counter-strike" unit. Not a mobile attack unit (Move=1), nor a defensive unit but one designed to wait in a city protected by AA batteries and defensive units like the NKVD trooper and waits for enemies to stall outside the city. I used them very effectively in forts along the Don river opposite a row of minefields where they mowed down dozens of hapless German infantry units. Besides only in an attack mode does it get to use the nice soundtrack!

mrtemba · November 26, 1999, 01:39

CAPTAIN NEMO! YOU HAVE DONE THE IMPOSSIBLE! I LOVE THIS SCENARIO!

Currently its August 1941 (I don't have a lot of time at my computer, but I will be playing more). The Nazis have captured Brest and next turn they will almost definitely capture Oddessa and Minsk. I am putting a major defense behind Kiev. Hopefully I can kill a whole bunch of them there.

Casualty Report --

Soviets
104 Red Army
22 T-26 Light Tanks
13 I-16 Polikarpov
12 Partisans
12 Red Guards
10 57 mm Anti-Tank Guns
10 Motorized Infantry
7 Naval Infantries
7 Heavy Artilleries
6 AA Batteries
6 Machine Guns
5 Cossack Cavalries
3 NKVD Troopers
3 Refugees
2 Destroyers
2 Freighters
1 General

Finns
8 150mm Artilleries
3 PzKw III Panzers
5 Infantries
1 Ju-87 Stuka
1 StuG III

Nazis

74 Wehrmacht
42 PzKw IV Panzers
30 Wehrmacht SG
19 Ju-87 Stukas
11 Romanian Infantry
11 He-111 Bombers
4 PzKw III Panzers
4 StuG IIIs
3 150mm Artillery
2 Waffen SS Regiments
1 Me-109 Fighter
1 Destroyer
1 U-Boat

I like the idea about red guards being promoted, although it will make the scenario much toughter. Increased Partisan Activity, NKVD presensce and suburubs to move troops through should make up for it. I would also love to see the Zaitsev unit! Although I realize that unit slots are scarce.

One Question -- What does the Concentration Camp replace?

Captain Nemo · November 26, 1999, 09:39

MrTemba:
This is a great honor, you actually LOVE this scenario... Wow!

I do not think I could get any greater endorsement than MRTemba liking a WW2 scenario.

It appears from your report that you are a tougher opponent than most actually taking out 40 of those Pzkw IV in June-July is very impressive...but watch out the Germans have many nasty tricks in that first summer. Also still holding Minsk and Odessa in August is not easy. What other cities have fallen? Tallinn? Nikolayev? Riga? Lvov? Byalostok?

You love the Zaitsev unit? Did you read "War of the Rats"? (I guess that was the title of the book about his cat and mouse game with the German sniper ace in Stalingrad?) I didn't read it but I have quite a historical account about him and as far as I understand the book (though a novel) is very accurate too.

The new "Concentration Camp" is the SDI improvement, useless in a game without nukes but the only "useless" improvement the German AI will build (Probably because the Nuke unit slot is in use). I tried the recycling center and mass transportation but the AI just didn't build them in a game without pollution. I am testplaying the game with the changes and can gradually increase it's maintenance cost in the later rules files if the Germans still make too much money.

Michael Daumen · November 26, 1999, 21:20

Nemo, perhaps a popup text should appear when the Soviets capture a German city with a concentration camp saying that it should be disbanded.

Of course, with all of tech's suggestions you will need another events file alone.

It really is a great scenario. I imagine you could write five SLeague tips with the things you discovered.

------------------
Michael Daumen

"the future is not yet"

mrtemba · November 26, 1999, 21:42

Nikolayev, I think was destroyed. Between them taking it and me hitting it back it soon was depopulated. (Or maybe I'm thinking of somewhere else). Riga was captured in the first move, nothing I could do about it. All the others have been taken, except Talinin which is surrounded and undefended

Yes, I read war of the rats. I loved it! If the Ai didn't **** it up so bad I would reccomend sniper units.

I looked at the events file and I think its pretty cheap that whenver I kill one of them they get two more elite units, and so on. Isn't there are better way to do it?

mrtemba · November 26, 1999, 21:44

oh and thanks for explaining about the concentration camps!

Captain Nemo · November 27, 1999, 00:23

MrTemba:

Regarding the events that give the Germans new units when you kill some, there was no way for the AI to achieve historical "High-water marks" in 1941 without some incredible help. I could of course give them tanks with 18a,12d right from the start and make the Wehrmacht infantry 10a,8d but that would make any counter-attacks futile and make the Human player feel totally helpless.

Here you can make a difference, most units are not regenerated when killed, only some, and then moved forward to reinforced the front lines or regenerated in another area (I think of it as a way to more frequently trigger a needed "createunit" command, not as a "revive dead unit" command).

This heavy "AI cheating" ends in December 1941 with the Germans either around their actual historical positions in Dec 1941 or not quite there if you've done well or past them if you've done poorly. There is still some help later on because the AI refuses to build units, can't figure out how to fortify captured cities etc... but no more "auto-regenerating units".

I could have made more turn triggered createunit commands progressively advancing into Soviet territory as cities are taken, but there is just not enough event space in the summer of 1941 to make up for the AIs moronic behavior!

I feel the best approach is just not to look at the event files so you don't really know how much the AI cheats and you don't feel fooled...

By 1944 with more limited event help I am kicking the AI's behind, with a simple superior strategy that the AI can't figure out. My only challenge will be to see if I can get back to a marginal or decisive victory in the time allotted because I'm still facing 100s of extra units generated in 1941... I believe the AI will realize that he is losing the military edge at some point and start building units again but it's not happened yet. I have wiped out the entire Luftwaffe except for a few Me-262s and FW-190s which are generated by events (Because the AI won't build them) I hold a serious armor edge now with about 100 T-34s, 75 Katyushas, 25 KV-1s and my first dozen Su-152s against only 80 German armor units left (I am playtesting so I run in cheatmode and check up on the AI regularly) But the Germans still have over 400 Wehrmacht/SG units and also many SS-regiments. The first Tiger IIs are rolling up from Western Germany but haven't seen action yet.

One nasty "Karl" siege mortar got into the Caucasus mountains and caused havoc bombarding Maikop repeatedly (systematically cost me the city's 2 best defending units each turn) and almost indestructible on a mountain square. I got it into the "red" three times before I finally killed it but it cost 8 "good units" (T-34s/Katyusha's) to do the job, just the last time.

I was surprised to hear a city was wiped out. I have systematically given all cities anti-tank defenses to avoid that, but I guess on conquest sometimes that improvement is lost and with an immediate counter-attack the city could be wiped out. I haven't seen it happen since I gave all cities in the warzone the anti-tank defenses.

It also sounds that you are putting up much more of a fight than I have been able to. When Nikolayev falls I am usually worried about fortifying Rostov and Kharkov not trying to retake anything, but that's why I need many people testing the game, each has his own strategy and all have different outcomes. Some feedback is "It's too hard, can't even hold Moscow and Leningrad", others "it's too easy to hold the Germans from their actual 1941 achievements..."

Thanks a lot for giving me all that good feedback. Version 2 will be all the better for it.

Captain Nemo · November 27, 1999, 00:29

Michael:

Is there a way to trigger something when a certain improvement exists in a city? I don't think so...
They are truly hassle. But I have just sold all powerplants and hydroplants (Electrification) so the Soviet economy is booming. I am even speed buying units from scratch! Those 3 Caucasus "oil-cities" are truly the key to the economic game! Tech advances now take 2 turns!

Michael Daumen · November 28, 1999, 12:17

_War of the Rats_ was a great book about the battle of Stalingrad for you readers of English out there. One of those books that amazes you when you find out what is truthful and what is fiction (like Card's _Red Prophet_.

Captain Nemo · November 28, 1999, 14:04

April 1945...
The Soviet offensive is awaiting the summer weather for it's final push. There are pockets of Germans encircled in Novgorod-Luga, Luga-Kaluga, Sevastopol-Kerch, Minsk-Smolensk... But generally German organized resistance has ceased to exist. Town defenders engage in token fights before surrendering... Except for the SS, who still put up stiff resistance. Their new Tiger II Panzers are really nasty but fortunately there are very few of them facing my 300 motorized units and 100 aircraft! The Northern pincer is in Eastern Germany after taking Konigsberg and Dantzig, the Southern pincer is at the Romanian border reaching for the oilfields at Ploesti. Each group is spearheaded by a motorized army group with 15 + Katyushas launchers and 30 or more tanks of various types. Behind follows a caravan of Red Guards, AA guns, motorized infantry and halftracks to hold the captured cities. IL-2s are used to clear the path between cities of any wandering German units so the motorized units can concentrate on moving in and killing the city defenders... It is not clear whether I can get a victory because there is little time left and the Germans still score a "marginal victory" currently.

The new version of Red Front will be out within the next week. Many playability improvements are nearly complted.

techumseh · November 28, 1999, 14:27

How about a two-player version?

Captain Nemo · November 28, 1999, 22:20

A two-player game is not in my plans right now, because I don't really play two-player mode myself, so I can't test it and I don't really know what's involved...
If someone would like to convert Red Front to a two-player game I would be glad to let them do it. Is there any demand for two player games? Do we have a volunteer?

DarthVeda · November 28, 1999, 23:54

I'd like the job... but I'm just too busy right now

the problem with two player is that they would have to restart the game every time winter and summer came along (!)

Jim Winchell · November 29, 1999, 10:35

I played through the entire game this weekend--I probably did better than the average bear because I was involved in the playtesting. Narva, Bryansk, Kursk, Kholm, and the Crimea never fell. Smolensk didn't fall until early spring of 42 and then was easily recaptured. The Soviets recaptured the Baltic States and Poland and pushed all the way to the gates of Berlin in Summer of 1943 to Winter 1944. I knocked Finland out of the war in 1943. Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad were never threatened. The south was a tough nut to crack--I held up advancing on Berlin until I had recaptured Kiev and the Ukraine. I didn't retake these cities until the Winter of 1944, and I had to divert most of the Soviet army from advancing Berlin and used up most of the Soviet treasury in speed building units to do this.

I had plenty of naval infantry units in Leningrad and Sevastopol to conduct sea invasions of Finland (and later Denmark) in the north and Odessa and later Rumanian in the south.

I researched the techs giving me the Colossus, SETI, and Hoover Dam wonders first. I set my research/taxes so I was getting an advance every two turns. I ran out of researchable techs (other than future tech) in 1943. I airlifted a freight unit every turn out of the UK to build wonders and/or establish trade routes.

I finally killed off enough units for the Germans to start building--they exclusively built 88 mm flak guns, mobile flak guns, Tiger II, and Karls. My cities were assaulted with wave after wave of mobile flak guns. I hardly saw a German infantry unit outside a city after 1943.

All in all it was a great game. Other than the Crimea and Narva, the Germans reached their 1941 objectives by the Spring of 1942. The German summer 1942 offensive took Rostov, but didn't really threaten Stalingrad. Instead, a swarm of infantry and tanks went into to the Caucasus and almost took Maikop. The Kursk offensive in 1943 didn't take Kursk, although it did run headon into my offensive to liberate Gomel, Rostov, and Kharkov and resulted in a stalemate in the south throughout 1943. However, I was able to march through the Baltic, East Prussia, and Poland north of the Pripet Marshes with ease in 1943. This freed up units in Leningrad to knock Finland out of the war in 1943--I even sent dozens of the armored infantry units into Norway and took out the northern most city (and then ran into a bunch of Karls the Germans had built in Norway). The Soviet offensive stalled in 1944 when the Germans started building 88mm flak guns like crazy in all of their cities.

Suggestions for version 2:

1. Don't let the Germans build Karls.
2. Fix it so that Future Tech 1 is not researchable until all other advances have been researched.
3. Give mobile flak guns a weaker attack strength. They were blowing away tanks with ease.
4. Give the Germans free units in Smolensk/Minsk, and Tallinn/Riga in 1942 and 1943 to keep the Soviets on the defensive until early 1944.
5. The Germans should have a "breaking point"--perhaps give them an advance to make Wehrmacht SG units obsolete after General Paulus is killed (so they can only build regular Wehrmacht infantry). In the summer of 1944 give the Germans an advance which makes their 88 Flak guns obsolete (to simulate the Allied invasion). Dozens of Soviet units were killed off assaulting German cities with 2-3 88mm flak guns (along with a Panther or Tiger II) in them in 1944.
6. I loved the Yugoslavian partisans. At one time they were all over the Balkans. However you stopped producing them in late 1943-1944 and they all were killed. Keep them appearing via events in greater numbers until the end of the game. Build some forts so the barbarians will occupy them.
7. Simulate the Warsaw uprising and Polish Home army the same way as the Yugoslavian partisans.
8. Have the Siberian regiments appear at the start of the winter 1941 events. Have one appear in Stalingrad.
9. Rename all "regiments" to "divisions".

Jim Winchell · November 29, 1999, 10:42

10. If you have event space left, have German units appear in the Crimea in the Winter of 1941 (Rumanian infantry, artillery, Wehrmacht SG, a panzer unit). Get rid of the fortified battery north of the city (at this scale, the fortifications would be in the city itself). Other than an occasional bomber attack and stray infantry unit, the Crimea was ignored by the computer.

Captain Nemo · November 29, 1999, 20:33

Jim:

I also finished a complete game early this morning. My game includes the version 2 modifications which fixes several of the problems you encountered.
In my game the Germans achieved their goal for 1941 in November except for Kursk and Demyansk. Moscow took a serious pounding from September on and had all the perimeter fortifications wiped out and re-manned with PzKw IV and SGs
Crimea actually held out historically with Kerch lost and Sevastopol isolated but by July 1942 all troops were wiped out by the 2 Karl units and the Germans got it too. Leningrad held out well because I had mined a "firebreak" all around the city and although there were Germans in Luga, Novgorod and Narva they never got into the city. I kept moving winter troops into the Fortification south of the city which I used to harass the Germans.
The Finns took all the cities North of Leningrad/Tikhvin except for Murmansk which remained isolated until the winter of 1944 when I finally freed up enough units to go on the counter offensive against them. I took back the original cities + Helsinki and two other, they sued for peace and I actually got them to declare war on the Germans (Which is factual!)
In 1942 I lost Rostov and Novorussisk and faced a dual invasion of the Caucasus. Also lost Luga south of Moscow. Maikop was hit by one of the Karl units (I killed off the other one in the minefields at Sevastopol) getting over the Crimean straights and I got load of Panzers attacking Stalingrad from the South.
Only winter gave me some breathing room... I was able to counter-attack from Voronezh and capture Kharkov, clear out the Caucasus though not retake Rostov so the Germans kept coming. I did not win Stalingrad, ie kill Paulus (Actually I only got to him in the winter of 1944 and by then he had turned into a Volksturm unit...)nor did I take Rostov and eliminate the Caucasus offensive that way, but I was able to go on a limited counter-offensive in the central and Northern sectors to retake Kholm, Velukeye Luki, Tula and I held on to Kharkov as a base across the lower Don river.
1943 was a tough slugfest with all the German armor appearing around Kursk but open tank battles are not the AI's strength. By the winter of 1943 all his new Tigers and Panthers were scrap metal!
Also by the winter of 1943 my production build up started giving results. In the spring of 1944 I launched a maasive counter offensive with T34-85s and Katyusha launchers. I pushed the Germans out of the Caucasus and closed both doors (Kerch and Rostov) retook all the Southern cities up to Dnepropetovsk/Gomel. In the Baltics I swept all the way to Konigsberg. Also Kaluga, Bryansk...The AI was starting to run out of armor units and still not building any! My toughest fight was in the winter of 1944 for Perekop which was manned by over 50 SG units with tank support! My technique is using massive concentrated force, large groups of rocket launchers and tanks all fully repaired and all attacking in one turn, then repairing damage and moving on. At one point my armored "spearhead" had about 90 T-34/85s, 85 Katyushas, 60 armored infantry, 15 KV-1s, 55 Su-152s and 40 JS-1 tanks... Even 88s couldn't stop that armada!
The real build-up started in late summer 1944. When spring 1945 broke the Soviets launched into Germany from Konigsberg, Danzig, Minsk, Kiev, Warsaw, Odessa and Lvov. All remaining German pockets had been cleaned out during the winter, the last holdouts being Novgorod and Sevastopol. A new partisan uprising event, but with Soviet controlled partisans, took Warsaw in the winter of 1944-45. I have added automatic help to the Soviets when they knock-out a Tiger II (Tank Guard regiment formed...)and also some special events on capture of specific cities. During the summer of 45 I was able to knock the Germans down to a stalemate, bordering on a marginal defeat (72, I think). With 2-3 extra months it would have been curtains for the Great Reich!
I captured Berlin-Potdam-Rostock-Bucharest-Ploesti-Budapest-All of Poland-Debrecen and a few more...
The Germans started building units like crazy at the end and I saw the 88s and Panzergrenadiers everywhere also lots of Tiger IIs, no mobile AA guns though...
I still just killed them off in droves.
When the game ended I was just resting 4 huge motorized armies in Bucharest, Budapest, Berlin and Krakow readying them for the next blow.

1. Don't let the Germans build Karls.

If they can't build them they refuse to use them, it appears. But in the new rules files
I make the "fancy" German equipment obsolete when they get Volksturm (ie Soviets entering Germany), incl. the Karls and the Elephants what else do you suggest? (Maybe all bombers obsolete too?)

2. Fix it so that Future Tech 1 is not researchable until all other advances have been researched.

Why? Do the Germans research it? I made it of low value so they should go for it last. I also revised the tech tree value so the Germans should research in this order:
Hummels-EinsatzKommando-Waffen SS-Tiger-Panther-Fw190-TigerII-Me262-research labs-air defense-future tech

3. Give mobile flak guns a weaker attack strength. They were blowing away tanks with ease.

OK... Too tough. I saw very few of them

4. Give the Germans free units in Smolensk/Minsk, and Tallinn/Riga in 1942 and 1943 to keep the Soviets on the defensive until early 1944.

I will beef up the winter defenses in 1942

5. The Germans should have a "breaking point"--perhaps give them an advance to make Wehrmacht SG units obsolete after General Paulus is killed (so they can only build regular Wehrmacht infantry). In the summer of 1944 give the Germans an advance which makes their 88 Flak guns obsolete (to simulate the Allied invasion). Dozens of Soviet units were killed off assaulting German cities with 2-3 88mm flak guns (along with a Panther or Tiger II) in them in 1944.

I was thinking of making the SG obsolete with the fall of Berlin ie unwilling to fight, loss of morale. I was also thinking of a way to simulate the Allies entering western Germany in February 1945. The worst unit for me was those nasty Me262s...killing tanks and aircraft everywhere. I think I need to scale down the number generated by events.
My assault on German cities was very realistic, ie I lost tons of units like the Soviets, but at the end I wiped out all the defenders. I think the attack on Berlin alone cost the Soviets 150,000 men.

6. I loved the Yugoslavian partisans. At one time they were all over the Balkans. However you stopped producing them in late 1943-1944 and they all were killed. Keep them appearing via events in greater numbers until the end of the game. Build some forts so the barbarians will occupy them.

Tito was well organized too. How about giving him some heavy artillery, Machine guns and anti-tank guns?

7. Simulate the Warsaw uprising and Polish Home army the same way as the Yugoslavian partisans.

Done but that's in the direct path of the Soviets advance and I don't want a war to break out between the "Polish" barbarians and the Soviets. That insurrection (Soviet controlled) occurs when the Soviets retake Minsk and it's tough enough to capture Warsaw and hold it for a few turns until the Soviets get there but they have to be fast...

8. Have the Siberian regiments appear at the start of the winter 1941 events. Have one appear in Stalingrad.

OK

9. Rename all "regiments" to "divisions".

Is that about the scale of the game? The German casualties in Wehrmacht and SG were both 255+ they lost approx. 200 PzKw IV, around 50 of each type of planes, 100 SS, 40 each Panthers, Tigers, PzKw III etc...
Divisions seemed too big because that would make the losses about 1,000 divisions ie 10,000,000 men. Maybe brigades would be the most appropriate size each unit representing 2,500 men?

10. If you have event space left, have German units appear in the Crimea in the Winter of 1941 (Rumanian infantry, artillery, Wehrmacht SG, a panzer unit). Get rid of the fortified battery north of the city (at this scale, the fortifications would be in the city itself). Other than an occasional bomber attack and stray infantry unit, the Crimea was ignored by the computer.

The new version makes Crimea very tough to hold just through the summer of 1941... The Karl Units appeared in October 1941.

Captain Nemo · November 29, 1999, 20:46

Jim:
One last question: On what level did you play?

It appears that you got the technologies much faster than me. I only got JS-2 (Last unit researched) in December 1944 and got city air defenses a few turns before the end. The Germans were done a few month before me. They never build the "Fortress Deutchland" wonder and I never build the "NKVD intelligence" wonder, everything else got built.

I played on Deity.

Jim Winchell · November 30, 1999, 10:43

1. I never saw any Volksturm. Is their appearance dependant upon a tech the Germans receive when the Soviets capture a city? If so, I must have captured the trigger city an event file or two too soon. Have the Germans research the Volksturm tech after Tiger II.

2. Future tech 1 was available for the Soviets to research on the first turn.

5. The German losses in 1942-43 (destruction of the 6th Army at Stalingrad, the loss of the German armies in North Africa, and the attrition of two years of combat on the Russian front) resulted the Wehrmacht reorganizing the structure of their infantry division so it had fewer men. Making the Wehrmacht SG obsolete should be triggered by the destruction of the Paulus unit, not the fall of Berlin. Making the 88mm guns obsolete after June 1944 would help the Soviet advance, the Germans were building them in every city. The Me262 wasn't any more scary than the Ju88 and He111, they all pretty much destroyed whatever they attacked. Fortunately they only got one shot a turn.

6. I don't know about giving the partisans heavy artillery and AT guns. BTW, you ought to "upgrade" the Soviet 54 mm AT gun to a 76 mm AT gun after the Summer of 41 (actually the Russians had these at the start but leave as is to keep in the spirit of "crapifying" the Soviets in 1941).

7. I must have captured Minsk too early because I didn't get the Polish Uprising. Having barbarians as the Polish home army wouldn't be too far off the mark, they had their own agenda and didn't take their orders from Moscow. It is alleged that the Russians armies were held back from advancing on Warsaw until the Germans took care of the uprising--saving Stalin the trouble.

9. The "dead pool" is not an accurate way of determining unit sizes. At this map scale, the number of units in play, and the Soviet productions levels, it should at least be divisions (and probably corps). But why even give them a size, call them "Siberian Troops." It looked kind of silly when a "regiment" wiped out a stack of German tanks and infantry units.

I always play on Diety. You can increase your tax rate on the June turn because the Mass Production tech has almost been completely researched. I utilize every oil field hex in the Caucasus and build Universities in Grozny, Baku, and Maikop on the first turn (and an airport in Baku on the second turn, followed by a superhighway or stock market on the third turn). After the first turn, I set the tax rate so I getting a tech every two turns. I airlifted the first two freight unit from the UK to Baku and Grozny and got a 2000 gold bonus a +42 luxury x2 trade route in both of those cities. I researched the "research" techs first, building the Colossus in Baku. It produced so many trade arrows that the city screen couldn't contain them. I got the SETI wonder next and built it in Baku immediately. After that I was able to research a tech every two turns without a gold deficit. To handle the gold deficit (and speed build units), I was able to sell off a lot of city improvements--Novograd is a good example. It has a factory, but its a small city and only produces 4 or 5 shields per turn. It has a bank, but only produces a handful of gold (at least on my minimal tax levels). It has a university but only produces a handful of beakers. It has a sewer system, but will never grow to a size 12 city. All are sold for the war effort, even if the Germans don't ever threaten the city (it fell in late 1942). Politburos and NKVD headquarters also go. After I got all of the techs, libraries and universities went (along with granaries after I retook Kiev) and I boosted the tax rate so I had about 10,000 gold in the bank at the start of every turn.

I'm certain that if I hadn't messed around with liberating the Ukraine, I probably would have been all over Germany in the summer of 1944. The game definitely got more difficult when the Germans started building their own units.

Jim Winchell · November 30, 1999, 10:50

Hey, I'm a civer now! How many posts until I'm a senior civer (or Marshal of the Soviet Union Civer)?

DarthVeda · November 30, 1999, 16:16

Barbarians build whatever unit type that took the city.

ie Taken by T34, will build T34

Plus, the terrain around the city is automatically upgraded (!)

Jim Winchell · November 30, 1999, 17:11

I never thought of the artillery, they move so slow that I left them in Russia. I was throwing Katyushas, tanks and infantry against cities only to see a slight dip in the power bar on 2 to 3 88mm guns. The airforce was equally useless against them. Rather than making it obsolete, perhaps you could make it so that the 88mm gun can't be built. You have quite a few in key German cities at the start of the game already.

Could the Su152 (or whatever the Soviet SPG is) be adjusted to ignore city walls if it doesn't already? I found that I was exclusively building two types of tanks--JSIIs and T-34/85s (because of their superior movement in the summer and the winter).

There ought to be some benefit to the Soviets from the Allied invasion of France--perhaps make the Ju87s, He111s and Ju88s obsolete. Even when I had Germany on the ropes, air units were still all over the place. Perhaps make TigerIIs and German fighter planes obsolete with the fall of Bucharest?

Jim Winchell · November 30, 1999, 17:11

[double post]
[This message has been edited by blackclove (edited December 01, 1999).]

Jim Winchell · November 30, 1999, 17:12

[triple post]
[This message has been edited by blackclove (edited December 01, 1999).]

Mao · November 30, 1999, 20:10

You need 30 posts for "Civer" status. I'm playing it too, and it is an excellent scenario. However, when I captured Warsaw (forgot the year, sorry) I didn't get any additional units. I might have captured it too late or something.

Captain Nemo · December 1, 1999, 01:06

Very impressive Jim!
It took me until 1944 to get to the 2 turns per tech rate, but I didn't set the science rate that high, trying to keep the budget balanced without the income from sale of improvements. After I got electrification and SETI, I also had a lot of improvements to sell, especially when I started capturing all the German cities full of research labs and powerplants.
I could probably have set the science rate higher! Also, I built 3 military techs before turning to research (Propellants, Advanced Flight and Mobile Warfare II, I think)
Regarding the Future Tech there is no way to make it "last" because it has to tie to all the tech trees (German, Soviet and Finnish). I could tie it to advanced research so it's not available from the beginning, but it can't be "last". If I don't include it, the game crashes whenever someone (AI or human) reaches the end of their tech tree.
Regarding making the SG obsolete in 1942, I am a little worried that it will tilt the game balance seriously. The AI IMMEDIATELY disbands obsolete units and because he doesn't build anything yet many cities will lose their entire garrisson. My latest events have the SG, Ju87, Ju88, He111 and battleships becoming obsolete when Berlin falls which should really precipitate the collapse (ie get Berlin and the rest of the country falls).
Taking out the 88s goes against my historical grain because they were the last defense units that the Germans had, after all the tanks were out of action, they brought them out and used them as anti-tank weapons! The only truly effective weapon against the 88s in the game is the Soviet heavy artillery which moves 1 and ignores city anti-tank defenses... It also ignores the 88s double defense against 2 x move flag so it kills the 88s as if they were infantry! But it's tedious moving stacks of them up to the front.

How do you simulate the tremedous role of towed artillery in WWII? I could up their move to 2 like the German 150mm in the early turn and give them tremendous killing power but no defense? Kind of a slower moving Katyusha unit...

I will add events to ensure that the Germans get "Volksturm" no matter when you cross into Poland (I already added the trigger to 6-8 cities instead of Warsaw alone)

I know you don't use the sound files, but maybe you should try them for a little while, some day. I just made a series of new tank and MG sounds from movie soundtracks. (That Tiger in Saving Private Ryan sure sounds nasty!)

I will adjust the unit names (Troops is good) when I have time, it's quite tedious finding all the places they appear.

The 57mm to 76mm AT upgrade is a good idea, but also for a later update of the game. I also wanted to add a Yak-3 and the PzKw IVG as automatic upgrades but this takes time.

Right now the Polish uprising is Soviet controlled and the Yugoslav Partisans get heavy artillery and an extra boost in 1943 (They were quite organized and held entire areas of the country in their control, so having artillery is quite accurate, historically. Even the Soviet Partisans in the Pripyat marshes had some artillery and armored vehicles according to my research) With artillery, I think the Yugoslavs may capture a city in Serbia which would be nice historically. I don't know how the Barbarians behave when they hold a city... What units do they build?

Regarding the unit sizes in 1941 133 German divisions took part in Barbarossa, equating to 3.2 million men, ie 25,000 men per division? The German onslaught in the first move of the scenario involves approx. 400 "land" units about 1/3 division per unit maybe 8,000 men = 1 unit?
But the Soviets should have about 300-400 divisions which would mean 900-1200 units at the start of the game... Which is double what they have in the game...

I don't know what the criteria for becoming a "Civer" is in Apolyton's eyes but you have certainly earned the rank of Marshal of the Civ-iet Union with all your playtesting!!

Overdrive · December 1, 1999, 17:18

I took Berlin in June 45. I operated differently then the Red Army did: My main effort came from Leningrad and Stalingrad Fronts. Minsk was mine and my Tanks were ready to strike into Rumania while the Germans were still trashing in and around Voronezh!
I met quite a few Karl heavy mortars on my way to Germany too...