August 14, 2003, 00:49
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#1
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Emperor
Local Time: 09:22
Local Date: November 2, 2010
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Posts: 7,138
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Wed designers / programmers / authors - read this!
http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/...l?tw=authoring
If you remember we had a discussion a while ago about whether or not to use frames, and much criticism arose against using tables for page designing.
Well I invite you to look at the following easy manual, that will get you started on bringing back the control over your webpage without any evil tables.
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Page 1
God, I love tables. Tell me if you can't relate: I start out with my table tags and make them, um, 600 pixels wide. Then I do my first row with four <td> cells. I'll put my content in the last one - those first three are just placeholders for later. Oh wait, it's not taking my <td> widths. Oh, well. I'll put a spacer GIF in there.
Now I'll do my second row. Oh, hold on. I didn't put in enough placeholder <td> tags. I'll have to go back and add some more. No, wait! I'll just make one of the <td> tags colspan=2. There, that does it. Now I'll put some images in and ... darn! The images aren't lining up flush. What's going on? I'll turn off all the cell padding. Shoot! That's still not working. Oh, that's right. I remember now. You can't have any spaces or line breaks in the table. So I'll have to put it all on one line. Let's see... MAN this sure makes it hard to read.
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http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/...l?tw=authoring
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August 14, 2003, 00:55
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#2
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Deity
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I agree. I use FrontPage for my web editing since HTML is a drag for me, but try to accomodate as much as I can with CSS. It seems every day I learn something new about CSS which is extreeeeeeeemely powerful and can do practically everything you can imagine.
Interesting that just before reading this I was making tests with CSS on tables in my site 
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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August 14, 2003, 00:57
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#3
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President of the OT
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
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Just what's so bad about tables anyway? 
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
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August 14, 2003, 00:58
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#4
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Deity
Local Time: 01:22
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btw, those Overflow commands are awsome! Makes frames all but useless...
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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August 14, 2003, 00:59
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#5
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Deity
Local Time: 01:22
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Asher
Just what's so bad about tables anyway?
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Since I use FrontPage, tables are no problem, but making tables from scratch in HTML is incredibly confusing if you ask me.
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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August 14, 2003, 01:01
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#6
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President of the OT
Local Time: 01:22
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Join Date: Nov 1999
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Posts: 40,843
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Just takes some getting used to and the proper mindset.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
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August 14, 2003, 01:01
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#7
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Local Time: 03:22
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In search of pants
Posts: 5,085
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CSS positioning works on the current version of both major browsers, and is still in consideration by the W3C.
Is this a bit out of date?
I recommend reading a few articles by Eric Meyer and getting a CSS sidebar for your browser. That's all you need.
In Opera, go to http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/...op-visual.html, rightclick among the hotlist (F4) tabs, and choose Add Panel...
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August 14, 2003, 01:03
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#8
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Local Time: 03:22
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In search of pants
Posts: 5,085
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Asher
Just what's so bad about tables anyway?
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They are a kludgey hack. Just because you and I have been using them for years doesn't mean they are a good solution for the problem of laying stuff out.
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August 14, 2003, 01:05
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#9
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Emperor
Local Time: 01:22
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 3,215
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I made my website with a bunch of tables sometime last year. It's begging to be redone but I'm too lazy to get around to doing it.
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August 14, 2003, 01:06
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#10
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President of the OT
Local Time: 01:22
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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Tables: grid-based positioning of content.
What we're aiming for: grid-based position of content.
Kludgey hack is where?
CSS is different, personally I've always found it to be quite annoying compared to straight HTML. Just a personal preference.
Much like I prefer Notepad to Word, I prefer HTML to CSS.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
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August 14, 2003, 01:18
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#11
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Emperor
Local Time: 23:22
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I like your method Asher
It will load faster and has a greater chance of success of loading correctly on every browser
Plus it's easier to edit
__________________
"Let the People know the facts and the country will be saved." Abraham Lincoln
Mis Novias
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August 14, 2003, 02:05
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#12
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Emperor
Local Time: 01:22
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Well, when you have tables inside of tables inside of tables in an attempt to lay things out it's annoying and near impossible to figure out if you go back to edit it. Which is how my website was. But I went through tonight and converted to CSS positioning (it was actually easier than I thought) and now things are a lot easier to work with and change.
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August 14, 2003, 02:46
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#13
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Emperor
Local Time: 09:22
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 7,138
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Quote:
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Tables: grid-based positioning of content.
What we're aiming for: grid-based position of content.
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I'm sure you'd agree that a grid of ScreenWidth x ScreenHeight pixels, overwhich to place any HTML element, using "left : x; top: x; position: absolute" would be much more gridlike and exact, when it comes to serious grid-like positioning.
Furthermore, who says that having every page on the web look like a frigging table/ form, is good?
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August 14, 2003, 03:07
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#14
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Deity
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Here's another good page with examples on CSS: http://www.w3schools.com
it's the reference I use when editing my CSS pages
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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August 14, 2003, 05:30
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#15
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Deity
Local Time: 15:22
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Asher
Tables: grid-based positioning of content.
What we're aiming for: grid-based position of content.
Kludgey hack is where?
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It's kludgey because tables are not meant to be used for doing layouts. It's like using duct tapes to fix chair legs: it works, but you're not using the right tools.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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August 14, 2003, 05:32
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#16
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Deity
Local Time: 15:22
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ted Striker
I like your method Asher
It will load faster and has a greater chance of success of loading correctly on every browser
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No it's not. Each browser tend to render tables differently, plus rendering complicated tables takes a very long time.
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ted Striker
Plus it's easier to edit
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Now we know you are not speaking from experience.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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August 14, 2003, 07:18
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#17
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OTF Moderator
Local Time: 08:22
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Posts: 7,511
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My band website:
http://www.sonicundermind.co.uk
Currently using tables (a bit) no spacer gif or any of that crap. Might convert it to CSS at some point but works fine as it is.
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August 14, 2003, 09:00
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#18
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Prince
Local Time: 08:22
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Join Date: Dec 2000
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I use and like to use tables. They're fun.
Of course, it helps that I draw them on paper first then figure out what to type, rather than designing it while I write it.
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Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
"I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis
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August 14, 2003, 10:28
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#19
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Emperor
Local Time: 00:22
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Since I make my site ( http://www.firstcultural.com/) in raw HTML, I use tables. A couple well-placed comment lines keep the thing clear for future editing.
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Visit First Cultural Industries
There are reasons why I believe mankind should live in cities and let nature reclaim all the villages with the exception of a few we keep on display as horrific reminders of rural life.-Starchild
Meat eating and the dominance and force projected over animals that is acompanies it is a gateway or parallel to other prejudiced beliefs such as classism, misogyny, and even racism. -General Ludd
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August 14, 2003, 10:31
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#20
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Deity
Local Time: 15:22
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Join Date: May 1999
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Smiley,
You also got some other bad habits, like a splash page and a counter.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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August 14, 2003, 10:39
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#21
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Emperor
Local Time: 03:22
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ted Striker
I like your method Asher
It will load faster and has a greater chance of success of loading correctly on every browser
Plus it's easier to edit
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Actually, tables are slower to download and are harder to edit, at least in that they are more time consuming. CSS is now supported in 98.2% all browsers being used. Tables are the past, CSS is the future.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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August 14, 2003, 10:41
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#22
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Emperor
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Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
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www.gliwa.org, no tables. My personal site needs to be redesigned, but since I'm employed right now, I don't have much of an incentive to do so.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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August 14, 2003, 10:45
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#23
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Deity
Local Time: 15:22
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Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
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You did that? Cool!
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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August 14, 2003, 10:56
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#24
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Emperor
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Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You did that? Cool!
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Thanks. It's not as accessible as it should be, but I've learned a lot more about accessibility since I have been working here at Vistakon. I have become their global accessibility web site guru. I hardly do any design at all, just re-coding. When my contract is up I'm going to market myself as an accessibility expert, which is what I am now.
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Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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August 14, 2003, 11:48
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#25
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Deity
Local Time: 15:22
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Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
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Quote:
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara
When my contract is up I'm going to market myself as an accessibility expert, which is what I am now.
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Usability expert as well.
Or perhaps CHI (Computer Human Interface) expert. Buzzword sells
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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August 14, 2003, 12:26
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#26
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President of the OT
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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The buzzword is HCI, UR, not CHI. 
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
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August 14, 2003, 14:24
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#27
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Emperor
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Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
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Maybe it's different over there in China.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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August 14, 2003, 14:34
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#28
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President of the OT
Local Time: 01:22
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
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Both are used, it's just that HCI is a lot more common.
It's because Human-Computer implies it's about the tecnologies that humans interact with to use computers.
Computer-Human implies technologies computers use to interact with humans.
Semantics.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
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August 14, 2003, 21:30
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#29
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Emperor
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Is CSS the top of the line or is there anything set to replace it?
__________________
Visit First Cultural Industries
There are reasons why I believe mankind should live in cities and let nature reclaim all the villages with the exception of a few we keep on display as horrific reminders of rural life.-Starchild
Meat eating and the dominance and force projected over animals that is acompanies it is a gateway or parallel to other prejudiced beliefs such as classism, misogyny, and even racism. -General Ludd
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August 15, 2003, 00:45
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#30
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Deity
Local Time: 15:22
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Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
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Nope, CSS is top of the line.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
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