Playing as the Dark Lord - Not a strategy but rather a state of mind

MysteryMan · August 14, 2003, 21:24

Hey all, this is my first post here. I've read some of the threads and have found much useful information here, I can tell that some of you know what you are talking about (I mean that in a good way). I have been playing civ since it came out and have thrashed all three (except I have yet to beat civ III on Diety mostly due to the fact that I am having MUCH more fun in Dark Lord mode!)
Anyways, onto my point. I have found that when conquering opposing empires in civ III, it is one thing to TAKE a city, another thing entirely to KEEP it. I'm not talking about the AI's puny military efforts, I am talking about the damn city flipping on me. I hate it when I put my dudes in there to rest up and resume their but-kicking in a few turns, and then the *expletive* city flips!
I have also found that often other cultures will annoy the hell out of me due to their lack of self-preservation instincts. After I've kicked them around 5 or 6 times, they STILL don't get the point.
Sometimes these people just plain out piss you off. Sometimes you just want to take off the kid gloves and show the AI who's the man. But how, you are asking, is this to be done?
The solution: be an evil bastard! Don't be tempted to switch to Democracy right away (or play a religious civ, I usually do when I play this style). You may be wondering how to do this, but it is very simple. Whenever something happens, just ask yourself "What would Darth Vader do?" and do that. If you are still alive by 1000 AD, I can almost guarantee that you are on the threshold of a military victory!
So Pillage EVERYTHING, bombard the crap out of every single city, leave NO treaty unviolated, lie, steal, spy, blockade, get embargos - remember, your evil deeds create the legacy that assures your personal immortality! Spare no one. These people deserve it.
You may be tempted to let a civ live "just a little while longer". There are all sorts of good reasons for this, but you must remember. They are GOOD reasons. You are what mothers scare their children into being good with. It matters not whether the civ you are about to destroy could give you 6 advances. If you REALLY want the damn things, just demand them for a peace treaty, then violate it ON THE NEXT TURN. Anything else is not evil enough!
Remember, for the Dark Lord, the ultimate object of war is NOT peace. It is, as the great Genghis Kahn once said,
"...to chase and defeat his enemy, to seize his total possessions, ride his gelding, hear the weeping and wailing of his women, and embrace them."
And now, a few quotes from random famous people to get you into the right state of mind:
"It is better to be feared than loved." - Machiavelli
"If they fear you, they will respect you. If they love you, they might respect you. But if they don't fear you, they'll never love you or respect you and they don't have to!"
Richard Nixon
In conclusion, playing as the Dark Lord is very simple, just say to yourself "I am going to kick some ass" and never violate from that policy in the least. Happy hunting!
Anyways, just a random introductory spiel I wanted to get out of my system. If you'll excuse me, I have to go take my medication....

Arrian · August 15, 2003, 10:42

*grins approvingly*

Gufnork · August 15, 2003, 11:34

I'm not a fan of this. I find it lacks finesse. I prefer backstabbing only when it would really, really hurt. Lure them into trusting you, until the right time comes along. Then you deliver a single precision blow that kills immediatly when they least expect it. So much more satisfying than slicing at everything in sight with a machete.

Arrian · August 15, 2003, 11:52

Actually, I don't play this way. I do an awful lot of fighting, but I go out of my way to avoid breaking treaties (usually... if I see a benifit in breaking a treaty and I think I can pull off The Deception, I'll do it).

I don't tend to start razing cities until the industrial age.

But I have razed an entire continent before, because they pissed me off (they = England). Every city, every tile improvement. Gone. You never were, Liz!

-Arrian

Gufnork · August 15, 2003, 11:54

They still have ruins left. Unless you sent in a worker army to remove them.

Solomwi · August 15, 2003, 13:27

I like the theory. Could make for a fun AU course

.

MysteryMan · August 15, 2003, 14:21

One of the things about this way to play is that you don't NEED to build the temples and whatnot until MUCH later in the game, and you can control your expansion to whatever pace you like.
The way it works:
I start game. Have one city. Build 3 warriors, still don't see anyone, build settler, put new city in near spot with nice production potential. Build worker.
ROADS ARE CRUCIAL. BOTH WITHIN YOUR BORDERS AND LEADING TO THE FRONTS.
You find enemy civ who has pissed you off by existing. You fortify your warrior someplace where he either restricts thier movement or sees where they're expanding or both.
Meanwhile, you build NOTHING but archers until you are in danger or revolt. Then build a settler, then repeat. Cities stay too small to revolt and too far from bad guys to culture flip.
RAZE EVERY CITY YOU TAKE.
When you build settlers to keep your population in line, you soon have too many settlers. Send them to the sites of the razed cities. Build your own. BOOM. This city WILL NOT FLIP. Plus it is small and easy to manage (build archers then settlers continue ad infinitum or until you can make better attackers).
...And for whatever it's worth, I usually don't play this way either. But when I do, I sure do enjoy it...

P.S. This may actually be a very good tactic to get an early militaristic victory. Haven't finished testing it yet though, so for now it's just something fun to do to show the computer who's the man...

vmxa1 · August 15, 2003, 16:56

Yeah that is fun, on small map. Gets a bit boring on std or larger.

TheArsenal · August 15, 2003, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian Actually, But I have razed an entire continent before, because they pissed me off (they = England). Every city, every tile improvement. Gone. You never were, Liz!

I had a game where France back stabbed me, and I rolled out the MA razing perhaps 15 cities (huge map) and leaving a massive area with nothing but ruins. The most amusing part was the reappearance of warrior barbarians from the fog of war and watching them go up against the MA.

Theseus · August 16, 2003, 13:03

Nice... I like the emotion that goes into it.

zorbop · August 16, 2003, 15:51

i rarely use this strategy. i go for the blitz to avoid cultural conversions. i generally play as ottomans, and play passively until i get rail. by then i have about 40 sipahi waiting around, and about 35 workers. enough to take a city, cover it in rail, and roll on to the next city. cover that in rail, so my sipahi can go to the next. all in 1 turn. i love taking an enemies entire territory before they even have a chance to respond. i try to eliminate the enemy before cultural conversions have a chance to happen, and war weariness can come into play. best of all, wait to turns for your units to heal and to rail the entire territory. huge map continent: conquer in 10 turns or less.

vmxa1 · August 16, 2003, 18:47

What good are Sipahi or any calv type units once RR comes in? I mean would you be looking at infantry at least ? Maybe even and tanks not far away.

Gufnork · August 16, 2003, 19:23

Mech inf is one age away. Infantry is not far away, but you've spent your 40 Sipahi way before then. Riflemen is what you're up against and Sipahi are of some use against them. I'd prefer using Sipahi against Musketmen/Knights than Riflemen/Cavalry though.

zorbop · August 16, 2003, 20:11

the purpose their speed and power, ai cities are far enough away from eachother that you need 3 movement to take all their territory in one turn.

vmxa1 · August 16, 2003, 23:12

All I am saying is after Steam, you could be looking at a civ that got Elec then Replacement Parts.
I do not want to try going at metros with any horse units that have even rifles, let along infantry. It could get very ugly. My calv units days are behind them by industrial. I will use them in armies and spot them in fights here and there, but they can not attack metro or even well defended cities. You wil need arties and now you are moving at speed 1. I want to use them before then.

zorbop · August 16, 2003, 23:21

By then i am ahead in tech. i go for steam, it takes 6 turns. ai is slow to upgrade. you can destroy at least 2 civs before you see riflemen in any numbers (at least controlled by the ai). the reason to wait for rail is the ability to take a civ in 1 turn, allowing no counterattack, thus, minimal cassualties and no risk of cultural conversion. 2 turns to heal, then the next civ will fall in 1 turn.
destroying a civ in 1 turn, with vet sipahi, leaves almost no casualties

vmxa1 · August 17, 2003, 04:08

Sounds good, but I do not see it in my games. By rails, I have long ago gotten rid of the near civs and left only large civs or civs far away.
These civs will have rifles at a minimum and probably more if I wait until I have my RR up. I would not expect to see the #2 and #3 civs that far behind, unless I was playing below Emperor or even below Monarch.
Like I said I am not expecting to be using any horse type units for hitting metros, regardless of what is defending them. You would be hard pressed to beat Pikeman with all the bonus it would have. I am quite sure they will have some very large cities that late in the game. They will have many scores of units, if not over a hundred. Well I should preface this by mentioning I am talking about std maps, not smaller ones. I don't have a clue how those go.

Solomwi · August 17, 2003, 04:30

Quote:

the reason to wait for rail is the ability to take a civ in 1 turn, allowing no counterattack

Quote:

Well I should preface this by mentioning I am talking about std maps, not smaller ones.

One ancillary point that came to mind upon seeing these two comments: This is normally impossible on huge maps, regardless of how many units you can throw into it. The AI uses an EXTREMELY loose city spacing on huge and will nearly always have at least one "breakpoint" at which you need all three moves just to approach the next city. I just throw this out so nobody gets a surprise while shooting for the single turn war on a huge map. I know I tend to not think about map size when reading some of the advice here unless I force myself to.

GhengisFarb™ · August 17, 2003, 09:37

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you have problems with losing cities (your or recently captured ones) to the AI, you are a wuss.

You have obviously have no grasp of military strategy because good military strategy supports cultural holding of cities the way they set up the formula.

My new game experiment is defensive conquest. I invade with nothing but defensive troops and conquer by defending tiles, NEVER attacking. Its hilarious.

MysteryMan · August 17, 2003, 11:14

You must tell me more of this 'capturing cities without attacking' strategy. I find waiting for culture flips to be useful maybe 3 times in a game and then only under close to ideal circumstances. And what does having a defensive unit take a tile do to conquer a city besides starve out the populace?
It seems odd to be called a wuss by someone who takes cities without ever attacking

But seriously, if you have a srategy about this, you should let me know...
-N

GhengisFarb™ · August 17, 2003, 11:48

One of the biggest factors in holding an enemy city you have just captured is how many tile in its radius you control. Every tile in the city's radius is calculated towards the potential culture flip based on who controls it. If it is under a civs cultural control that civ get a point for it unless another civ has a unit on it. If a civ has a unit on a tile THEY get the point for it, not the cultural controller. I have built huge numbers of Spearmen and fortify them on all the tiles of the enemy city and just wait for it to culture flip. It is a very slow game, but I am just playing it to see if it is possible to win through not attacking.

zorbop · August 17, 2003, 11:54

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Sounds good, but I do not see it in my games. By rails, I have long ago gotten rid of the near civs and left only large civs or civs far away....
...Well I should preface this by mentioning I am talking about std maps, not smaller ones. I don't have a clue how those go.

I play on huge maps. also, i follow a builder's strategy at the beginning of the game, there are always still enemies left in the industrial age.

vmxa1 · August 17, 2003, 13:40

Quote:

Originally posted by zorbop

I play on huge maps. also, i follow a builder's strategy at the beginning of the game, there are always still enemies left in the industrial age.

Thats fine, but being ahead in tech by several techs is mostly a function of the difficulty and start location.
I just do not see the AI not having huge numbers of troops by industrial age on a huge map.
It is common to get the tech lead by then at Emperor, but not a given. I rarely have 4 or tech lead on the AI at that level, so soon. It would require a very good start.
If I do get to the point that I have rails up and they do not even have rifles, I would abandon that game, what would be the point? Shooting fish in a barrel is a laugh once, maybe.
So if you are seeing this often, you should move up a level. If at deity already, then all hail.

bongo · August 20, 2003, 05:47

GhengisFarb wrote

Quote:

If a civ has a unit on a tile THEY get the point for it, not the cultural controller

Well, well, well. I always thought you had to control it culturally.

Great info, gotta try it.

Harovan · August 20, 2003, 06:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
But I have razed an entire continent before, because they pissed me off (they = England). Every city, every tile improvement. Gone. You never were, Liz!

I once went even a step farther. It was in one of the earlier CFC GOTMs, IIRC. I razed the whole Egypt, including all tile improvements (that's what you did too), and I planted forest everywhere with the loads of free workers the razed cities gave. Made me a hell of a "Eastern National park". If there weren't those white-clothed park-robbers, who spawned again everywhere and killed my brave slave-workers

. And when we hit the industrial age, I had a massive uprising there.

Arrian · August 20, 2003, 09:27

True, I didn't take it that far. But I actually WAS planting forest. Unfortunately, I triggered domination unintentionally.

My 3xTank+1MechInf armies did pretty well against the men in white.

-Arrian

GhengisFarb™ · August 20, 2003, 09:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

I once went even a step farther. It was in one of the earlier CFC GOTMs, IIRC. I razed the whole Egypt, including all tile improvements (that's what you did too), and I planted forest everywhere with the loads of free workers the razed cities gave. Made me a hell of a "Eastern National park".

I did that before, too. I forested everything but the actually ruined city sites. Called the Anglo Park of Posterity and Britainic History. (I built two cities in it to type the title of the park and referred to them as gift shops)

TheArsenal · August 20, 2003, 13:07

Quote:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you have problems with losing cities (your or recently captured ones) to the AI, you are a wuss.

… or you just simply overextended yourself in a campaign due to ambition exceeding unit numbers.

Catt · August 23, 2003, 14:18

Quote:

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Every tile in the city's radius is calculated towards the potential culture flip based on who controls it. If it is under a civs cultural control that civ get a point for it unless another civ has a unit on it. If a civ has a unit on a tile THEY get the point for it, not the cultural controller.

What makes you say this? I had always thought that it was solely cultural control of the tile in question for purposes of flipping.

Catt

aoav160 · August 25, 2003, 00:23

When playing the Lord Vader method I like to get a right of passage and garrison troops near each city before launching a mass attack.