Early game secret projects - how and when to build them?

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
MM: Your example, while illustrative of Vel's concept of comparitive turn advantage is spurious in two respects: #1. You don't have enough EC's to rush everything everywhere. #2. You probably have other bases producing other things that will produce better dividends from the cash you've got to spend.

#1:
This applies to everything. What I'm doing is priorizing the SP I'm building before anything else.

#2:
I will still rush build formers and pods, when able.

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Most SPs are incredibly efficient generators of turn-advantage, much more than a couple of extra minerals from idle crawlers. Don't get me wrong, you'll want to roll crawlers to get minerals in order to ramp up your production, they're a very good deal, but each SP can only be built ONCE, and if you miss out, the only way to regain the benefit is a protracted war, since the faction you deprive of it will be VERY determined to get it back. Besides, most SPs will be built in core bases, making them very hard to approach.

Don't you see that by rushing the crawlers I'm rushing the project I'm building? The crawlers are not sitting idle - they are harvesting minerals and waiting for the moment they are cashed into the SP. As soon as I have enough crawlers, I can insta-build the project.

[CEO Aaron]

Okay, here's my example scenario: As you can see, I'm playing as Morgan, and have started off on a small island. Not the best location, and I will need to make sure I obtain the Weather Paradigm, so I can raise a land-bridge to the nearby continent. By 2150, I've planted 7 bases, the most I'm comfortable cramming into such a small island, one past the bureaucracy limit on a large map at transcend. As you can see, I've discovered Industrial Automation, as well as SotHB, so I'm ready to start crash-building SPs.

The two options presented are to a) rush build crawlers until you have enough to crash build the SP. b) hoard energy credits until you have enough to upgrade them and produce the SP.

[CEO Aaron]

Okay, here's my solution to the scenario: 8 turns later, I've built up a few crawlers, and have upgraded 2 of them to synth/trance crawlers to crash-build. I do have 2 AA's in my base, but have opted not to use them, to simplify the example.

MM, if you can produce the WP in less time, or can complete the SP in slightly more time but with considerably more crawler power, I'd be thrilled to discover how. I make no claims to possess any superior skill or wisdom, it's just that, to my mind, this is the most efficent way to get the SP built, without adversely affecting my growth.

PS: Don't just cash in the AA's, that's cheating.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Okay, here's my solution to the scenario: 8 turns later, I've built up a few crawlers, and have upgraded 2 of them to synth/trance crawlers to crash-build. I do have 2 AA's in my base, but have opted not to use them, to simplify the example.

MM, if you can produce the WP in less time, or can complete the SP in slightly more time but with considerably more crawler power, I'd be thrilled to discover how. I make no claims to possess any superior skill or wisdom, it's just that, to my mind, this is the most efficent way to get the SP built, without adversely affecting my growth.

PS: Don't just cash in the AA's, that's cheating.

There weren't many forests in place for my crawlers, so I think rushing crawlers was slightly less effective than what I'm used to. Having said that, by rushing the crawlers I built the WP in 1954 and the HGP in 1957. That is, I built two SPs before you had finished your first.

[Minute Mirage]

Here's the second save, I just completed the HGP here.

[Lazerus]

This is why crawler upgrades are banned in quite a few games, makes getting the SP built way to cheap.

[Ned]

I think the HGP and the WP are so important that I always try to get them both, the HGP first. To do this, I now never build a colony pod in my home base, but set it immediately to building an SP. If I find an AA, I use it to build the SP. Using this method, I normally can get both of these critical SPs in my home base. Waiting for crawlers may take some time if you are using blind research.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Lazerus
This is why crawler upgrades are banned in quite a few games, makes getting the SP built way to cheap.

I didn't upgrade the crawlers, I just rush builded them. Surely that's not disallowed?

[CEO Aaron]

Well, you may indeed have something there. I'm trying to evaluate whether having 11 extra mineral production (the uncashed crawlers I have currently collecting minerals) is worth not having the HGP, and thus far, I'm coming to the conclusion that no, I'd rather have the SP.

I took a second look at the numbers, and when you're at +1 industry (running wealth) upgrading a crawler from 10 minerals nets you 20 minerals (assuming you toggle SE choices when cashing in your crawlers, always a good policy) and cost 48 EC's, for a cost of 2.4 ECs per mineral purchased. Upgrading is slightly more efficent, upgrading a 30 mineral unit to an 80 mineral unit for 80 ECs, a net gain of 50 minerals, for a cost of .1.6 ECs per mineral purchased. The question is, does the extra FOPs gathered from your crawlers compensate for the 33% discount in the energy cost of your purchased minerals? It would appear that the answer is yes.

If you've already have a large stockpile of EC's handy, upgrading crawlers costs 2/3s what rush-building and cashing them in will cost, so for later game projects upgrading seems to be the way to go.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron

I took a second look at the numbers, and when you're at +1 industry (running wealth) upgrading a crawler from 10 minerals nets you 20 minerals (assuming you toggle SE choices when cashing in your crawlers, always a good policy) and cost 48 EC's, for a cost of 2.4 ECs per mineral purchased.

I assume you mean rushing the crawler instead of upgrading it? Anyway, I don't understand what good changing my SE settings when finishing the SP will do for me. Yes, I'll gain more minerals if I cash the crawler at 0 industry, but the project itself will be more expensive. Changing the SE settings would only be useful if I'm cashing in a lot of AAs, but not with crawlers.

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Upgrading is slightly more efficent, upgrading a 30 mineral unit to an 80 mineral unit for 80 ECs, a net gain of 50 minerals, for a cost of .1.6 ECs per mineral purchased. The question is, does the extra FOPs gathered from your crawlers compensate for the 33% discount in the energy cost of your purchased minerals? It would appear that the answer is yes.

The cost to upgrade is 90 ECs IIRC. Note also that like Curiosity said, the cost of upgrading remains static regardless of your industry rating. This means that the better industry rating you have, the more beneficial it is for you to rush build the crawlers.

Anyway, I'll try to make another example to illustrate the rush building. OK, let's say we have a size one base that has one worker on a forest and no infrastructure. The base currently produces 3 mins per turn and has been making a crawler for four turns, which means that the crawler is 12/27 ready (assuming FM/wealth here). Now, the cost to rush build the crawler so that it will be finished next turn is (*checks from Nethog's table) 33 ECs. This means that we buy 12 minerals for 33 ECs at 2,75/mineral and also gain four turns of advantage.

Now, what do get with those four turns? Assuming we have another forest ready either adjacent to the base or on a road we can start harvesting 2 min/turn with the crawler. This means that during the next four turns our base will be producing an extra of 20 minerals. So now the total number of minerals we got with that 33 ECs is 32. That is 1,03125 ECs per min.

This of course assumes that we have been able to do some terraforming beforehand. Thankfully, the forests have a nice tendency to spread.

If there's a mistake in my thinking, please point it out. I'm just trying to figure this all out myself.

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
If you've already have a large stockpile of EC's handy, upgrading crawlers costs 2/3s what rush-building and cashing them in will cost, so for later game projects upgrading seems to be the way to go.

I agree that later on, especially when your income is several hunderds ECs per turn, upgrading the crawlers seems better.

[Ned]

The crawler upgrade trick is well known. It vastly reduces the cost of an SP. The AI never uses it, so I personally never use it as well.

One more thing. If you have the tech, get those gun boats out and hunting for pods. They bring in loads of extra cash which you can then use to rush the early SPs.

[CEO Aaron]

MM, by toggling SE settings, I mean that you pay 40 ECs to switch from wealth to to survival SE values, or even power, to effectively increase the number of minerals you receive when cashing in the crawler. Once you have cashed them all in, switch back to wealth and recoup your 40 EC investment, and you've gotten 10-30% more minerals from your crawlers than had you stayed at Wealth while cashing them in.

Regardless of whether you're upgrading crawlers or not, you should be doing this, unless your multiplayer rules forbid it.

[CEO Aaron]

Ned, I prefer to pop sea-pods with transports, that way I can get free units and even AAs.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
MM, by toggling SE settings, I mean that you pay 40 ECs to switch from wealth to to survival SE values, or even power, to effectively increase the number of minerals you receive when cashing in the crawler. Once you have cashed them all in, switch back to wealth and recoup your 40 EC investment, and you've gotten 10-30% more minerals from your crawlers than had you stayed at Wealth while cashing them in.

Regardless of whether you're upgrading crawlers or not, you should be doing this, unless your multiplayer rules forbid it.

Ah, now I see what you mean. I think the MP rules usually forbid switching the SE settings like this and it feels like a cheat to me too.

[Kody]

I think the MP rules usually forbid switching the SE settings like this and it feels like a cheat to me too.

All the MP rules I've seen label it as a cheat. I think the term they use is SE flip-flops.

[HeymlicH]

I play with slow tech and complete the early wonders before crawlers are available. I try to get 3 of them. In most cases I get at least 2.

[Minute Mirage]

I finally tried building the Planetary Transit System earlier than what I've usually done, and I must say it is a great project. Combined with the Monsoon Jungle that I landed next to it is simply awesome! It's so easy to thin expand when you don't have to worry about getting 2 nut squares.

All in all, I've had the best start of all my games so far and by 1959 I have built all the very early SPs (VW, PTS, HGP, WP, ME) and have 20 bases with 59 population. I haven't even needed any recreation commons' yet despite the fact that I've passed the third bureaucracy limit (large map) and am running FM. The drone-reducing aspect of PTS is very nice too.

[HeymlicH]

Starting with the monsoon jungle nearby is always a great start, no matter if you have the planetary transport system or not.

[Corellion]

Originally posted by Minute Mirage
...by 1959 I have built all the very early SPs (VW, PTS, HGP, WP, ME)

[Snowflake]

That's even before I was born.

[HeymlicH]

I think there are three early projects that are quite important. Building the PTS or other stuff is possible, but it is a waste of ressources that could be better put into expansion/infrastructure/military.

[Chaos Theory]

If your bases average size 2 and you ICS, the PTS pays for itself really quickly. It gives you an extra *productive* citizen everywhere that you can scratch together 6 food, and as you continue to sprawl, every base will start twice as productive.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HongHu
That's even before I was born.

That's the third or fourth time I make the same mistake in this thread!

Originally posted by HeymlicH
Building the PTS or other stuff is possible, but it is a waste of ressources that could be better put into expansion/infrastructure/military.

The PTS is expansion -- your population can easily double when you build it. Not to mention that any future expansion will be quicker because all new bases will be immediately productive.

[Snowflake]

The problem is you need to have a large enough continent. Or do you expand into the sea when you don't have land?

[HeymlicH]

colony pods pay really fast, too

And if you have too many colonies early, the rioting becomes a problem.

Later in the game, a few large bases are better than lots of small ones. With the settings I usually use I found something between 8 and 12 main bases to be the best choice. I don't need the PTS to expand to this number of bases.

My main problem are usually the drones (ok, I play Zak ), not the growth. So I build happyness wonders first, and when they are completed I don't need the PTS any more.

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by HongHu
The problem is you need to have a large enough continent. Or do you expand into the sea when you don't have land?

Definitely, sea expansion. The PTS with sea colony pods has great synergy IMO. Typically, in the absence of PTS, I wouldn't even bother to build sea bases because pods and former are too mineral expensive, IMO.

But with the PTS, it's easier to get more self-sufficient bases which have minerals besides the usual kelp/energy.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HeymlicH
colony pods pay really fast, too

And if you have too many colonies early, the rioting becomes a problem.

That's a point against building colony pods, not against the PTS. The PTS actually reduces rioting, at least early on.

Originally posted by HeymlicH
Later in the game, a few large bases are better than lots of small ones. With the settings I usually use I found something between 8 and 12 main bases to be the best choice. I don't need the PTS to expand to this number of bases.

The PTS isn't just about expansion, it's about getting the bases you found to be productive a lot quicker. Not to mention that all your existing bases get more productive when you build it. Of course, if you build the PTS by the time you have founded all your bases and they are all size three, then I grant you that it isn't of much use.

Originally posted by HeymlicH
My main problem are usually the drones (ok, I play Zak ), not the growth. So I build happyness wonders first, and when they are completed I don't need the PTS any more.

I also play the University and I agree that the VW or the HGP is my first priority. But I find (in single player) that I still can build the PTS after that and find it very useful indeed. Just as an aside, when do you actually finish the first SP(s)?

[Minute Mirage]

My apologies for topping another older thread, but I feel I need to add one point concerning the PTS, now that I'm a bit more experienced in using it.


If you cash in your crawlers for any other SP, you are sacrificing a part of your much needed early industrial strength to get the benefits of the SP. While this is almost always a good deal, the PTS does better here. When you cash in the crawlers, your industrial capacity is very likely to actually increase, thanks to the new workers. This would make the PTS worth building even without its other benefit -- each new base starts at size three.

And while this has been mentioned before in this thread and elsewhere too, I think it bears repeating: The PTS makes all your bases ready for a golden age, which can be very powerful with the HGP. There's nothing like a GA pop boom in Democracy/FM/Wealth to get your newly founded bases going.

[ErikM]

Imho PTS value varies greatly depending on the game particulars.

Zak, Morgan, CC, and Roze can get to IA very quickly - definitely by 30s - at which stage early expansion is not finished, most bases are at size 1-2 and building PTS generates a very quick increase in industrial capacity allowing you to build other SPs more quickly. Definitely a priority project in such a case.

Slower research factions may not be able to get to IA that fast and for some of them it makes more sense to beeline to other techs (ie Dee benefits immensely from Doc:Flex and catching IoDs). Then IA may come as late as 40s-50s in which case expansion is almost finished and many bases are at size 3+ already. In latter case, PTS really is not all that valuable.

In short, PTS value tremendously declines with time.

Another project whose value imho is vastly overrated is the Weather Paradigm. It has several effects:

(i) formers work 50% faster - no, they do not Consider a typical terraforming task in early game - planting a forest.
Say, flat and arid square.
Former deploys - 1 turn with or without WP.
Former builds road - 1 turn with or without WP.
Former plants forest - 4 turns without WP; 3 turns with WP.
Overall terraforming time is 6 turns without WP vs 5 turns with WP. Nothing to write home about.

Same task for a rolling square is 7 turns without WP vs 6 turns with WP, which is even worse for WP.

(ii) WP allows you to build advanced terraforming projects, which is excellent, but at this stage at the game your formers time is probably better invested towards building forests anyway. At any rate, with a fast research faction you probably cannot get WP much earlier than 30s and you'll probably get EnvEcon in 50s so the window of opportunity is rather small.

(iii) Later on, you can drill a borehole in 16 turns with WP vs 24 turns without, which is quite substantial but at a cost of 200mins spent towards WP you can build extra 7 clean formers which would net you roughy the same effect.

Of course, with blind research the value of WP increases quite substantially. Overall, good project - all early projects are great really - but not in the same league as HGP/VW (for me at least).

Just my $0.02.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by ErikM

Slower research factions may not be able to get to IA that fast and for some of them it makes more sense to beeline to other techs (ie Dee benefits immensely from Doc:Flex and catching IoDs). Then IA may come as late as 40s-50s in which case expansion is almost finished and many bases are at size 3+ already. In latter case, PTS really is not all that valuable.

I wouln't call the 40s exactly late, and depending on the map you could be expanding quite late. But you do make a good point that some factions might get to IA too late to make PTS as useful as it is for some others. Although in MP you can get to IA earlier, if you trade techs.

Originally posted by ErikM

Another project whose value imho is vastly overrated is the Weather Paradigm. It has several effects:

(i) formers work 50% faster - no, they do not Consider a typical terraforming task in early game - planting a forest.
Say, flat and arid square.
Former deploys - 1 turn with or without WP.
Former builds road - 1 turn with or without WP.
Former plants forest - 4 turns without WP; 3 turns with WP.
Overall terraforming time is 6 turns without WP vs 5 turns with WP. Nothing to write home about.

Same task for a rolling square is 7 turns without WP vs 6 turns with WP, which is even worse for WP.

That's very true of course, but as soon as you start building condensor/farms, you see some substantial benefit. You need 11 former turns for a condensor/farm with the WP and 16 without. I find myself building quite a few of these as soon as I get the WP.

Originally posted by ErikM

(ii) WP allows you to build advanced terraforming projects, which is excellent, but at this stage at the game your formers time is probably better invested towards building forests anyway. At any rate, with a fast research faction you probably cannot get WP much earlier than 30s and you'll probably get EnvEcon in 50s so the window of opportunity is rather small.

I usually only forest in the very early game and then start with the condensor/farms. A very nice benefit is that you don't have to have Gene Splicing to get the 4 nuts from them. While it's true that the fast research factions can lift the restrictions quite soon, things are different for others. Not to mention that even a fast research factions might not necessarily want to beeline for Environmental Economics, but head for something like D:AP and MMI instead.

Originally posted by ErikM
(iii) Later on, you can drill a borehole in 16 turns with WP vs 24 turns without, which is quite substantial but at a cost of 200mins spent towards WP you can build extra 7 clean formers which would net you roughy the same effect.

For terraform paradigms that need a large amount of former turns (condensor/farms + boreholes, energy parks) I'd say that the WP is worth a lot more than the minerals spent on it.

Originally posted by ErikM
Overall, good project - all early projects are great really -but not in the same league as HGP/VW (for me at least).

Finally, I have to say I agree with this sentiment, at least when playing with the University, which is what I usually do. Getting either of these in the early game makes running FM a lot easier, and the HGP has the added bonus of making GAs a lot easier. Of course, the free holo theaters in every base is a massive benefit.