Why do I struggle so much with "Republic"??!

[Ilkuul]

I'm a repentant warmonger. Till I started browsing these forums, about the only way I could win at Civ was by out-and-out military aggression, building barracks as my only city improvement! It's therefore not surprising that I still don't fully understand how to use Republic and Democracy to best advantage.

In a recent game (MGE) I changed to Republic with 5 cities, all over 5 in size. I set my luxury rate high (50%), built Hanging Gardens, had a temple in all cities and a colosseum in the larger ones. But I just NEVER did well! My cities were constantly falling into disorder, WLTCD hardly ever worked for more than a few turns, and in some cities I had almost half the population as Elvises!! My discovery rate after several centuries of this was 26 turns!!!

What did I do wrong? Change over too soon? Not already have HG when I did so?

I'd be very glad of some advice, or at least pointers as to threads/documents that might address this issue...

[Scouse Gits]

We are unrepentant warmongers! However, the answer to your question is TRADE if your five cities each have three trade routes they simply will not be in unrest with a temple and colosseum and 20% luxuries.
You have discovered as many of us that Republic is a lousy form of government, but ... necessary in the early years it gets your size 3-5 cities upto 8-12 in size - then get Demo (SoL) and a real government - for us that is Commie then Fundy, but basically you can choose your poison at this stage...
_____________
The SGs deep in the red

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Ilkuul]

Oh well, if you're unrepentant I'll withdraw my repentance! Especially as a great light has now dawned, thanks to your advice re TRADE: I set up that game with archipelagoes, and ended up on a large island - then with all the problems of Republic, never got around to establishing trade routes!

That explains a lot, thanks. From now on I'll be a repentant isolationist.

[Exile]

The essential element is the number of trade arrows. If there aren't very many of these, then there won't be very many siphoned off into luxuries which keep cities from going into unrest. If, on the other hand, you have maximized the trade arrows, not only with "happy" improvements, but also with money-making improvements, then there will be a much higher number of total trade available, with a correspondingly higher level of luxury output. Republic (my favorite) requires a balanced approach (IMHO). you must keep people happy, but at the same time be able to pay for everything, and it helps to be able to generate a surplus as well. Generally, a Republic govt. will give you the cash to pay for everything you build, but creating some good trade routes on top of that will pay off like crazy. And when your cities have these good trade routes, money and happy improvements, and only a little luxuries (20% is good), you will find that it is difficult not to be in a WLTKD. Alternately, you can use the latitude provided by the money/science/luxury settings to generate some profound effects. In Republic, If you have a good amount of cash, or several cities are in Capitalization, you can drop the "money" of the money/science/luxury settings to zero, drop the science to 10% and shoot the luxury setting to 90%. Most of your cities will then go into a WLTKD and their population will skyrocket(as long as there is sufficient food); 1 pop/turn. Often, the addition of the new people to your cities will add such a substantial amount of new income that your money problems will be solved for good. A city of size 10 can, in just 10 turns, become a size 20 city, with the corresponding income increase. The Republic with Women's Suffrage can be a very powerful military machine, too.

This is just one way to do things. There are certainly others, and some of the other posters here have developed more ingenious ways than these.

Salutations,
Exile

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

[Ilkuul]

Thanks, Exile! Er... your favourite govt.????? Yes, well, I guess civ - and civ-players! - are full of surprises!

One question: Could you expand a bit on what you mean by "money-making improvements"? Like Marketplace, Bank, and ... ?? 'Fraid I'm still a bit hazy about city improvements and their effects.

[Exile]

Yes, Republic is my favorite government in Civ2. With Women's Suffrage, there is NO penalty for military units being away from their cities, and it simultaneously gives one the money, science, and, with factories, warmaking capacity to move in any direction necessary.

Bribing is a problem, however.

Yes, moneymaking improvements are marketplace, bank, stock market, and superhighways, although the last one is accompanied by some annoying pollution problems. Roads are also essential, and railroads will help even more in the right places. Also, take full advantage, as soon as it is practical to do so, of special resources that give trade bonuses. Silk is good, gold is a little better.

I know some around here seem to swear by Democracy, but I have never been able to make it work significantly better than Republic. If you can count on peace, perhaps it is worthwhile, or if you have an opponent who is bribing your cities and units, then Demo is an effective counter. Many also like Fundy as the premier war government, but staying too long in fundy will allow your opponents to get a technological edge.

Now solicit some other advice.

Salutations,
Exile


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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

[Chris1111]

Could always build Mike's chapel or Bach's Cathedral before going into republic. You wont have any unhappiness problems for a while. Much better then making trade routes IMO anyway. I used to love republic governments but I've found that communist seems to be better for me on higher levels(no darn wimpy senate either).

[Ilkuul]

Now these two responses really blow my mind! Just WHEN do you folks expect to change to Republic? Somehow I've got the impression on these forums that Rep. is something you go for as early as poss. B.C. And you advise building Mike's Chapel or Bach's C. before changing to Rep.???? I'm lucky if I get those well into the AD era!

Mindyou, I can only agree with what you say, Chris1111, about trading routes: I've just been playing a game trying to really develop trade, and it was killing... Halfway to the target city it would stop demanding the commodity my caravan was carrying... It took so **** looooong to build and send caravans that most of my cities hadn't established their first trade route by 250AD... So I still had half the pop. of most of my cities entertaining the other half to keep them happy!! And a fairly miserable advance rate of 11 turns... So, quite frankly, I'm just about ready to give up on Republic.

Just a couple of questions: What are the optimum number and size of cities when you change to Rep.? What city improvements and wonders do you consider to be prerequisites? Do you just tolerate low productivity (many Elvises) and a slow advance rate in order to allow WLTCD to work?

My gosh, Monarchy and eventual Fundamentalism were never as hard as this!

[Admiral PJ]

Being a republic can be a headache if your not prepared, but its good for building improvements.. they cost less than quick buying units.. The support costs really annoy me though, so I often wait till i've got some factories built first and stick all my units supported from a few productive cities.

You also need courthouses to reduce corruption, but the trade bonuses are good in republic, use lots of sea production and harbours for a great powerful civ.. and lots of roads.
Police stations are very useful, if you can't make womans suffrage.. or just don't take units out of cities much ;>

It can be better to not have too many units in a city actually, they can be better off in forts in good defensive terrain like mountains/hills and don't cause republic unhappiness.. though early in my TOT/multiverse game
republic seemed quite good even playing on Deity,
I was on a big island group.. then i discovered communism and used that, now i'm fundamentalist, but i ought to go back to republic now its 1980.. when i've built a few more armours.

Admira Pete
Emperor of the Potatoe

[Scouse Gits]

Ikuul - I think we have a number of advocates for late Republic here not, I believe, what you were asking about -- in Early Republic there is no real alternative to trade - you really should not need 50% luxuries ever you can't really afford this level of loss of productivity - IMO (not necessarily the best) trade routes (any trade routes) are vital - yes - it is great to go halfway round the world and drop three required caravans into a size 12 Babylon - but it happens about as often as the Mongols keep an alliance - ideally there is a relatively nearby foreign city on a different island - send all your routes there - every last one! A classic example is the Rome Scenario that comes with the game - Rhodes is the Colossus city on an island by sending all caravans to Rhodes I have got Carthaginian Ironclads before 200BC (with a Science rate never exceeding 10%)
In the absence of such an obvious target - even internal trade is acceptable - remember as the cities grow their base trade arrows rocket as well - thus the internal trade routes grow exponentially.

Good civin' - OH! and don't underestimate the power of the Oracle! Another lesson that is hard taught by the Rome Scenario.

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[War4ever]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-29-2001 06:01 AM - yes - it is great to go halfway round the world and drop three required caravans into a size 12 Babylon - but it happens about as often as the Mongols keep an alliance - ideally there is a relatively nearby foreign city on a different island - send all your routes there - every last one! Good civin' - OH! and don't underestimate the power of the Oracle! Another lesson that is hard taught by the Rome Scenario.

What are you talking about Scouse..... The Mongols always keep their alliances

In Sp mode the Oracle is great as the ai is often slow to research Theology.......thus effectively helping your early republic.....and maximizing its usage.

Multicontinental trading is key in civ.... find the closest ai city not on your land a bombard them with caravans...... this works with either ics, or perfectionism and everything else in between.

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-29-2001 06:01 AM Ikuul - I think we have a number of advocates for late Republic here not, I believe, what you were asking about -- ... Early Republic...

Scouse, thank you for your, as always, illuminating comment! Now I see why we seemed to be on totally different wavelengths. I hadn't even realised there was such a thing as "late Republic"! I thought it was a govt. you used exclusively as a stepping-stone to higher things...

Question: Do most people still go for Rep. en route to Democracy - or if that's your ultimate aim, are you better advised to stick with Monarchy till you reach it?

Let me see if I understand properly what you and War4ever were saying about trade: So you try to find any foreign city on a nearby island/continent (or failing that, your own continent, or even one of your own cities) - and you send all your caravans to that city, regardless of whether it demands that particular commodity - i.e., you totally ignore your trade advisor's 'supply and demand' info?? I must say I'd find that a great relief!

Thanks again for your help, folks! I'm learning a lot...

[Scouse Gits]

You can set your scientific goals as follows:-

Monarchy
Pottery (HG) - Research Pottery as the non-Monarchy option
Trade
Monotheism (Mike's Chapel)
Republic

You can easily turn Republic in the BC years with both of the happiness wonders above. Use Republic to grow your cities with WLTCD. Monotheism has the great advantage of allowing you to build Crusaders if you are at war. (Find a high production city and build a barracks, then have this place do nothing else but produce vet Crusaders!)

Meanwhile, the rest of the empire turns out caravans, either for trading or for wonder building. If you can build the Colossus in you capital - so much the better. (Always go for HG in same city as Colossus) Then you have the making of a Super Science City - which celebrates easily.

Send your early caravans to the capital/SSC whether it demands the goods or not - you want some basic trade routes in your cities during the early years. (Later on you can reap the benefits of sending selected freights to overseas AI cities for far larger bonuses.)

Unless there is a good reason - don't build city improvements anywhere else but your capital (or SSC). I agree, there will always be some exceptions. The odd barracks, temple or harbour will always seem sensible. Avoid the madness of thinking that every possible improvement has to be built everywhere! This drains your gold with upkeep fees - and leads to the ridiculous logic of (as in one succession game) a factory being constructed in a city with a net shield output of ONE!

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SG(2)

[War4ever]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-29-2001 07:23 PM Avoid the madness of thinking that every possible improvement has to be built everywhere! This drains your gold with upkeep fees - and leads to the ridiculous logic of (as in one succession game) a factory being constructed in a city with a net shield output of ONE! ----------- SG(2)

ok .... its good to see the OLD vets are making the odd errors...... down to the minor leagues for some conditioning Scouse

re gardens or collosus.... always gardens for the unlimited growth... the easy wtl*d in the capital allowing for repub trade during a monarchy and the one happy fella in your other cities for easy growth via wlt*d.....

collosus in the hg city is your ticket to the stars

[Rufus T. Firefly]

quote: Originally posted by Ilkuul on 04-29-2001 06:19 PM Question: Do most people still go for Rep. en route to Democracy - or if that's your ultimate aim, are you better advised to stick with Monarchy till you reach it?

Like some others here, my rule of thumb is, no Republic without two Happiness wonders, ideally HG and Mike's. I used to research Monarchy-Trade-Astronomy-Monotheism-Republic, get a Republic sometime early AD, and stay with it for a while until I got Democracy. These days, though, I tend to research Invention before Monotheism (the AI puts a higher priority on Leo's than on Mike's), which means that by the time I build Mike's I either have or am about to discover Democracy. Republic becomes a stop-gap government; I'm rarely in it for more than a few turns.


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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Father Beast]

quote: Originally posted by Exile on 04-27-2001 08:11 PM Yes, Republic is my favorite government in Civ2. With Women's Suffrage, there is NO penalty for military units being away from their cities, and it simultaneously gives one the money, science, and, with factories, warmaking capacity to move in any direction necessary. Salutations, Exile

Errr... Not exactly. each unit away from home AFTER THE FIRST still generates unhappiness by 2 per unit. women's suffrage reduces that to 1 per unit, but you still get unhappiness. but you can have 1 unit from each city out on the lines without any unhappiness.
another nice thing about rep is a city can be in civil disorder for more than a turn without your government falling. giuves a bit of leverage...

[Scouse Gits]

Another note on trade - there are quite a few research labs trying to get a handle on exactly what influences the gold/science bonus and the on-going trade bonus, but it is generally agreed that demand has no influence on the size of the on-going trade bonus from a trade route. This means that in terms of the long-term benefits of trading it is safe to ignore your trade advisor completely - that is not to say that an occassional one off bonus of 4 to 500 gold/beakers are not very gratefully recieved, but in the early game (in the absence of ship chains and railroad connections which allow instantaneous delivery of commodities) they should IMO be considered as serendipitous not something actively sought (although I make an exception for a repeating Hides route!)

[Rufus T. Firefly]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-30-2001 06:54 AM it is generally agreed that demand has no influence on the size of the on-going trade bonus from a trade route. This means that in terms of the long-term benefits of trading it is safe to ignore your trade advisor completely

Omigod! How did I miss this bit of news? Boy, that's Apolyton for you: you log in on a Monday afternoon for a bit of distraction, and the next thing you know you've got a whole new way to play! Thanks, SG. A quick off-topic question: do other factors -- like whether the route is internal or external, or whether it's overseas -- affect ongoing trade income? Or do those just affect the size of the initial trade bonus as well?

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Exile]

FB, you and I must be playing different games, and I have noticed this before now. Does the effect of Women's Suffrage change according to what level one plays at? It seems that I have seen others make the same claim you have made concerning this government and this wonder. There is a conundrum here.

All I know is that, when in Republic, w/the WS wonder, I can field as many military units as I can construct, anywhere on the map, and they do not make anyone unhappy anywhere. In Democracy, the 2 red shields are, w/WS wonder, reduced to 1 red shield if a unit is outside its home city and not in a fortress at least 3 tiles away from that home city. With Republic and WS, unhappiness due to distant units is non-existent.

Now, my copy of civ2 is an MGE. Does the rules.txt vary from version to version? What am I missing here? This is a mystery that I sure would like to see explained, FB. Any idea where we are crossing wires? If, in some versions of civ2, the WS wonder performs as you say it does, then it would sure explain why a lot of people hold the Republic in low regard.

Curiously,
Exile

[Ilkuul]

Wow, I'm now OVERLOADED with information!! Have to print out and start processing all this. I really appreciate all the helpful responses from you guys. My head is spinning with ideas, and I have to try them out and see what works for ME... Especially good news is that I can safely ignore my trade advisor! Think I'll sack him - he's caused me enough headaches already! I appreciate the suggested research paths, too, Scouse, Rufus & Trader - that gives me a good idea of what the necessary prelims are.

[----->>>> Zzzzzzzzzip! Off to try it out...]

[War4ever]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-30-2001 12:11 PM Hey War ... don't understand your comments above? I made it clear from the top of the post that you go for HG + Mike's for early Republic. If you do build the Colossus, you house it in the same city as the HG. -------- SG(2)

Yes Scouse i saw that.....

well i was referring to your comment about a factory and the city generating only one shield in the succession game.
Here is a classic example of a improvement that is not paying for itself which is one of the biggest blunders new civvers make

[Scouse Gits]

Hey War ... don't understand your comments above?

I made it clear from the top of the post that you go for HG + Mike's for early Republic. If you do build the Colossus, you house it in the same city as the HG.

--------

SG(2)

[East Street Trader]

Republic is the hardest gov.t I think.

In my current game I got Monarchy from a hut before I founded (first and only time that's happened to me) and I went Writing, Mysticism, Literacy, Republic. So I was a republic before 2000 BC.

I tried to manage with just the NONE units I picked up from huts. So quite a few cities have had no defender for lengthy periods. That leads to plenty of scares.

You have to build a Temple in each city as a priority but after that it is lots of caravans.

I always build a trireme, explorer and diplo and send them off to explore the world and tip as many huts as they find. Otherwise the only units I've built are ships to make an effective ship chain (one per coastal city) and dips (for protection).

The explorers gets plenty of opportunities to bribe barbs and stray, cheap A1 units so it pays to have a second ship which comes along behind them and ferries these NONE units back to your cities and their forts.

Once you have a goodly array of foreign routes in place it's time to think of growing the cities. Turn research down and taxes up. Rush marketplaces and harbours. When your core cities have those improvements, turn luxuries up for a few turns and grow the core cities to size 8.

Don't be stingy with your elvii. Try to have one more elvis in each city than the minimum needed to celebrate. That guarantees the city will stay celebrating after the new citizen gets into place. Now when you do the rounds you will be able to make sure the citizens are working squares which keep the celebration rolling. If you don't leave the cushion of the extra elvis, oft enough the A1 will place the new citizen somewhere where he or she does not produce enough arrows and you will get the message that the celebration has been cancelled. OK, you can get the city back celebrating once you re-assign the worker - but meanwhile the cancelation has bitten and it takes one full turn for the celebration to be effective again (so growth is intermittent).

When you near the end of a city's potential for celebrating you can't employ this method. You can predict, however, where the A1 will place the extra worker (it prefers food). That may allow you to manage the situation. If there is a food special which also generates arrows (fish say) then try to leave that one free (while maintaining one extra wheatsheaf required). The additional citizen will then be placed on that square and the arrow surplus will be sustained

Once you can see that several cities cannot continue to celebrate, turn luxuries back down. Don't carry on so as to generate the maximum possible nunber of extra citizens. You want a good few extra citizens each turn to justify all the waste which turning luxuries up causes. Just one or two extra citizens is not worth it.

The power graph (substantially) measures population so you will probably move up at this time. Consider giving away some tech before embarking on the WLTCDs. If you expect to be Supreme give most to the purple civ. Try to fulfil your diplomatic needs (maps, alliances, etc) during this diplomatic round because the A1 will get more jealous as you grow.

Another growth cycle may be triggered when you reach Construction, moving core cities up from 8 to 12 and bringing laggards from previous rounds and newly formed cities along too. If you have Banking this is the time to rush some banks (an expensive business).

I see that other posters manage to be cash rich with this gov.t. I don't manage that and pretty much rely on income from trade bonuses and gifts from allies to keep my head above water.

I know when I'm managing it well and when not. If I'm going good I'm using caravans to establish routes. If badly, they're getting sucked into endless Wonder building.

But, really, it is no more than a stepping stone to Democracy.

[Scouse Gits]

Ah - thanks War - I too was somewhat confused by your comment.
Read my sig!! I assure you it was not our factory!

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[War4ever]

LOL@ Scouse Gits (1) &(2)...... i doubt very much it would have been your mistake.........i hope you sold it for cash on your turn and btw NICE sig!

Are those games fun? I would have time for something like that unlike a continuing dig game Perhaps when a new one starts you will give me a favourable endorsement and then i too can plunge into unchartered waters

[Father Beast]

quote: Originally posted by Exile on 04-30-2001 01:43 PM FB, you and I must be playing different games, and I have noticed this before now. Does the effect of Women's Suffrage change according to what level one plays at? It seems that I have seen others make the same claim you have made concerning this government and this wonder. There is a conundrum here. All I know is that, when in Republic, w/the WS wonder, I can field as many military units as I can construct, anywhere on the map, and they do not make anyone unhappy anywhere. In Democracy, the 2 red shields are, w/WS wonder, reduced to 1 red shield if a unit is outside its home city and not in a fortress at least 3 tiles away from that home city. With Republic and WS, unhappiness due to distant units is non-existent. Now, my copy of civ2 is an MGE. Does the rules.txt vary from version to version? What am I missing here? This is a mystery that I sure would like to see explained, FB. Any idea where we are crossing wires? If, in some versions of civ2, the WS wonder performs as you say it does, then it would sure explain why a lot of people hold the Republic in low regard. Curiously, Exile

Sorry, exile. I went back and actually tried it out, and you're right. only 1 citizen unhappy, and that disappears with Empress' Suffrage. A republic with empress is like having a license to kill...

[Exile]

FB,
Yeah, Republic and WS is a killer combination and it allows you to make war with a capital W, against the AI. But the problem with Rep as I see it, is that in MP, you are always vulnerable to the bribing business. I've played a few mp games recently, and my experiences haven't been good. Honestly, the immense power of the diplomat in mp has convinced me that;

IN MULTI-Play;

1.) The diplomat is far too powerful and unbalances the game.

2.) The diplomats and spies are ahistorical, unrealistic, and innacurate;
centuries worth of buildings and construction can just disappear in a
single turn if attacked by a covey of diplomats. Why build
improvements? It simply isn't cost effective.

3.) Why build anything but diplomats? They can bribe units and
cities, destroy improvements, steal techs, and drop city populations.
AND they are one of the cheapest units in the game to produce,
they cost NO shield upkeep, and will not make anyone unhappy if they
are far away from the city where they were produced. Additionally,
they can damage military units. And if they are spies instead of merely
diplomats, they can do all of these things and come back for more!

4.) Why use any other government except Democracy? It can put a brake on some of the power of enemy diplomats and will give a player the cash to
do the bribing. No need to wage war or conduct battles, simply buy your way to victory!

5.) The spies and diplomats change the entire nature of the game. It's not
an exaggeration to say that it becomes a very different game if one
uses the diplomats and spies.

6.) Sadly, it's not a game that I want to play. Call me perverse,
but I actually enjoy constructing improvements, building armies, and
fighting battles and wars.

7.) Conclusion; I'll stick with scenarios, apparently, but anyone who
wants to play w/limited diplomats should contact me and we'll play.

Rant-for-the-day,
Exile
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited May 05, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited May 05, 2001).]

[War4ever]

quote: Originally posted by Exile on 05-05-2001 10:04 PM FB, Yeah, Republic and WS is a killer combination and it allows you to make war with a capital W, against the AI. But the problem with Rep as I see it, is that in MP, you are always vulnerable to the bribing business. I've played a few mp games recently, and my experiences haven't been good. Honestly, the immense power of the diplomat in mp has convinced me that; IN MULTI-Play; 1.) The diplomat is far too powerful and unbalances the game. 2.) The diplomats and spies are ahistorical, unrealistic, and innacurate; centuries worth of buildings and construction can just disappear in a single turn if attacked by a covey of diplomats. Why build improvements? It simply isn't cost effective. 3.) Why build anything but diplomats? They can bribe units and cities, destroy improvements, steal techs, and drop city populations. AND they are one of the cheapest units in the game to produce, they cost NO shield upkeep, and will not make anyone unhappy if they are far away from the city where they were produced. Additionally, they can damage military units. And if they are spies instead of merely diplomats, they can do all of these things and come back for more! 4.) Why use any other government except Democracy? It can put a brake on some of the power of enemy diplomats and will give a player the cash to do the bribing. No need to wage war or conduct battles, simply buy your way to victory! 5.) The spies and diplomats change the entire nature of the game. It's not an exaggeration to say that it becomes a very different game if one uses the diplomats and spies. 6.) Sadly, it's not a game that I want to play. Call me perverse, but I actually enjoy constructing improvements, building armies, and fighting battles and wars. 7.) Conclusion; I'll stick with scenarios, apparently, but anyone who wants to play w/limited diplomats should contact me and we'll play. Rant-for-the-day, Exile [This message has been edited by Exile (edited May 05, 2001).] [This message has been edited by Exile (edited May 05, 2001).]

most here play without city bribe
If you only build dips you will be crushed and besides..... someone will go fundy in the mp game , someone will be commie and others democratic.

buildings are constructed mid game when the wonder race is over

you are correct about dips..... the bribe cost of cities is ludicrous.... and by 3200 bc you should stack your units in a small map