Thread Tools
Old August 18, 2003, 07:35   #1
fanes7
Warlord
 
Local Time: 07:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 125
the Bible for playing to computer
i always play in deity, huge map, 16 civs.

when i first played civ2 at 6 years ago, i played in very easy( i forgot the level name). After then, i alway played in deity.

when i first played civ3, i played in deity (used Aztc). Now i like to try every different civs.

The civ3 is very un-balance in the design of the creating GL. I can use 10 shield to build a warrior , after several winning the warrior can create a GL, The GL means unlimitted shield, even though it can only use once.

I very love this design, this make conquest have more important significance. A winning in war is not only give me the peace treat and gold and city and worker ... but also - THE MOST IMPORTANT THING - it can give me a choice to build anything i want.

So i even never build all wonders in civ2, but i build all in civ3, and even more, build all in one city .

Now i play " double your pleasure " in PTW, it have 51 more wonder, however, i build all of them as usual.

So THE EARLY YOU ATTACK , THE MORE YOU GET.

I always can creat my first GL in first 18 turns, this means I can build my first wonder( pyramid usually) before 3000 bc.

so i give your advice is : Do your best in making your warrior upgrade, try to get an elite in first 16 turns, let your worker build road out to make your leader back easy.

try to win every battle, when you can't attack to win it, just try to defend to win it, when you can't defend to win, you can move to attack in next turn.

At beginning of game, you can change the result of a battle by finding the field village, at midst you can change it by a remote attack (to enemy or road or mine etc.) . so if you want, you can win most of the battle ( almost 90%), you never need too more army to fight with 3 civs simultaneity.

at beginning, three or four warrior and one or two arrowers are enough to conquer a civ.
fanes7 is offline  
Old August 18, 2003, 16:41   #2
Purple
Prince
 
Purple's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Austin, TX, US
Posts: 723
What size map do you play on? And how many opponents?
Purple is offline  
Old August 18, 2003, 19:14   #3
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
You always make all wonders at deity? I can not even do that at Emperor? You always can get a leader in 18 turns? I must be misunderstanding what you are saying.
Anyone that can make all wonders at deity would have to walk on water at the very least.
I was not able to follow the last paragraph about changing result, but that sounds a bit like cheating to me.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old August 18, 2003, 21:40   #4
Tassadar500
Emperor
 
Tassadar500's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,468
Hmm I don't understand the last paragraph either? And how are you so good by the way? All wonders?
Tassadar500 is offline  
Old August 18, 2003, 21:58   #5
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
How is anyone that good? I know of many very strong players and I am not aware of any making this strong of a claim.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old August 18, 2003, 22:04   #6
Tassadar500
Emperor
 
Tassadar500's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,468
Could Aeson even do it?
Tassadar500 is offline  
Old August 18, 2003, 22:37   #7
Taian
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 01:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Winterpeg
Posts: 95
Now *that* would be an interesting AU course...build as many wonders as possible...captures don't count..only home-grown ones..
__________________
Walk softly and carry a big stick...or better yet, a remote controlled nuclear device.
Taian is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 09:20   #8
Sheik
Civilization III Democracy Game
King
 
Sheik's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,088
I really can't beleive it until I see it. Let's see a save.

Please explain the last paragraph.
__________________
For your photo needs:
http://www.canstockphoto.com?r=146

Sell your photos
Sheik is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 12:40   #9
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
Quote:
Originally posted by Taian
Now *that* would be an interesting AU course...build as many wonders as possible...captures don't count..only home-grown ones..
One of them called Ultimate Power was more or less just that. It was meant to see how much could be done given a very good start.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 13:31   #10
Tall Stranger
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton University
Warlord
 
Tall Stranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally posted by Sheik
I really can't beleive it until I see it. Let's see a save.

Please explain the last paragraph.
I agree, this is not possible. Let's do a bit of basic math here.

You claim to get all 7 ancient wonders every time, via Leaders. To do this without the Heroic Epic, you require 7 leaders. With Heroic Epic, you require 8, since you must have a victorious army to build the HE. (I'll assume you build the HE the old fashioned way, w/o a GL.)

I'll be kind and assume you build only veteran units, you're a militaristic civ and your promotions only come from fighting other civs (chance of promotion vs. barbarians is only half the chance against civs), thus:

Chance of promotion from veteran to elite: 1/4
Chance of GL from elite: 1/16 w/o HE, 1/12 with HE

Hence, on average, it will take you (7x16x4) or 448 successful battles to generate the 7 GLs needed to do this without the HE. With the HE, you will need an average of (8x12x4) or 384 successful battles.

Let's be kind and give you a 50/50 shot of winning a given battle. That means you'll need to fight (respectively) 896 or 768 battles. Simply put, there are nowhere near that many units in the game during the ancient era. This is especially true on Diety, since the ancient era does not last very long, given the rapid research of the AI and their extensive willingness to trade with one another.

There are only two reasonable ways the outcome you claim is possible: 1) you have used the editor to change the rules for promotion (don't even know if this is possible); or 2) you've turned off the "preserve random seed" option and are continuously replaying elite battles until you get lucky and generate a leader.

If it's 1), you need to tell us that. If it's 2), fine. You paid for the game, and if that's fun for you, knock yourself out. But please don't come here and talk about what you do as being a "strategy." It's a cheat.
__________________
They don't get no stranger.
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
"We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail." George W. Bush
Tall Stranger is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 22:53   #11
Mad Bomber
King
 
Mad Bomber's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,119
The person in question is either a cheat or a liar in either case best ignored.

His first claim that he can build all7 ancient wonders (leaders generated or not) is absurd. His second that it only takes 4 warriors and a couple of archers to kill a civ (on diety, no less) is asinine.

I would ask for a saved game, but It would either be tainted through reloads or not able to be produced.
__________________
* A true libertarian is an anarchist in denial.
* If brute force isn't working you are not using enough.
* The difference between Genius and stupidity is that Genius has a limit.
* There are Lies, Damned Lies, and The Republican Party.
Mad Bomber is offline  
Old August 19, 2003, 23:10   #12
Catt
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton University
King
 
Catt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California - SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,120
Quote:
Originally posted by Tall Stranger
I agree, this is not possible. Let's do a bit of basic math here.
I read your post, but didn't redo your math -- nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that you've nailed a huge hole in fanes7's story.

And there's another:

Quote:
Originally posted by fanes7
I always can creat my first GL in first 18 turns, this means I can build my first wonder( pyramid usually) before 3000 bc.
Though I recognize that writing in a second language is very difficult, fanes7 seems to have a good enough grasp on written english to take him/her at his (modified) word -- i.e., that he either always or often creates a GL during the 3000 BCs and uses that leader to build the Pyramids before 3000 BC.

3000 BC is turn 20 - so let's examine the timing required to generate a GL before then and then examine the liklihood of that happening either "always," "usually," or even "often." Some basics: (1) on a huge map, it will be extremely unlikely that the nearest enemy capitol will be closer than 10 tiles; (2) an industrious worker will take 2 turns to build a road on flat land -- non-industrious, 3 turns. If you buy into the 10-tile minimum, it will always be better to be the Aztecs (2-move warrior) instead of an industrious civ (1-move warrior) if the goal is earliest possible warfare, absent a pure path of hills, jungle, forest, or mountians or absent a start as Japan with a start location on horses. We'll content ourselves with an evaluation of the most player-advantaged situation: a 10-tile enemy, with a flatlands path, human playing the Aztecs, perfect knowledge of enemy locations.

Assume as the Aztecs that you build in the start location and have access to a two-shield tile at the start (game on forest or cow on plains, for example). Your first warrior will still take 3 turns (with shields from the city tile). Your road is not yet completed when the first warrior is built. Three turns to build plus 9 tiles to an attack position means at least 7 turns before an attack. Subsequent warriors may come in either 3 or 2 turns, but still require at least 6+ turns for an attack. Assume your first two warriors (they're regular - you haven't built a barracks) encounter enough barbs to get promoted to elite (obviously highly unlikely). At best, you are likely to have no more than a couple of elite warriors in a position to fight every turn before 3000 BC - even if successful each turn as an attacker and a defender, you've barely encountered enough battles to have a solid chance at GL generation. The timelines might be improved with an AI assualt force coming closer to your troops and eliminating some of the march to the enemy, but we're already pushing the envelope with good luck in the start-up circumstances.

Given the best of all circumstances described above (but nothing exceptional about RNG luck), it is very, very unlikely that you will have much luck generating a GL in the first 18 (or 20) turns. In the happy circumstance that you do generate a GL in this time frame (and this certainly does happen in rare occurences), you also need to have discovered Masonry to be able to build the Pyramids - you must either have found a civ (Americans, if playing with culturally-linked starts) that starts with it, traded for it very early (tough), or popped a hut and received it, to build the Pyramids.

Okay - enough with the hypotheticals. I don't know if fanes7 has a funky version of Civ (purchased in China) that alters some of the basic mechanics that I and Tall Stranger have described, has modded the game, or is otherwise just full of sh*t -- I do know that any claim to generate one's first Great Leader before 3000 BC on any other than an extremely unusual basis is absolute BS under standard rules -- this thread should die a quick death (and my post doesn't prolong its life since the thread currently sits atop the Strat Forum threads, owing to Poly's disasterous uptime record which is certainly driving away 'Poly regulars).

fanes7 - I think we all welcome new contributors and advice, and I agree that early aggression is a wonderful approach to breaking and winning the game; but posting absolute crap in a public forum only misleads the vast numbers of lurkers out there and doesn't contribute to a meaningful discussion about improving one's play.

Catt
Catt is offline  
Old August 20, 2003, 02:29   #13
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
Quote:
Originally posted by Mad Bomber
His second that it only takes 4 warriors and a couple of archers to kill a civ (on diety, no less) is asinine.
You can take down a civ on deity with this number of units, I have done it with about that amount. You have to be very lucky and also to catch the most of the massive (12) number of warriors out and about. I rarely attempt this, but I have done it. You had better not fail or you will be starting a new game. I should add that was before PTW, so it could be harder.

Last edited by vmxa1; August 20, 2003 at 13:58.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old August 20, 2003, 03:43   #14
Harovan
staff
PtWDG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Monty PythonC4DG Gathering Storm
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
 
Local Time: 08:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
I can't help, but the whole thing sounds a bit I-iz-1337ish.
Harovan is offline  
Old August 20, 2003, 16:42   #15
Sheik
Civilization III Democracy Game
King
 
Sheik's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,088
Yes it does.

But I guess fanes7 isn't going to reply
__________________
For your photo needs:
http://www.canstockphoto.com?r=146

Sell your photos
Sheik is offline  
Old August 21, 2003, 06:38   #16
fanes7
Warlord
 
Local Time: 07:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 125
Just try it yourself. I don't want to proof that I am more professional than you, I just want tell you the rule of the game.

In civ3, the barbarians' attack & defence are all only one, so you can easyly use your warrior perish them. A classical test case is : using your warrior find a field village, normal you will get three angry barbarians, just pass a turn, if you are enough lucky, your regular warrior will become elite by defending the three barbarians.

That is the most fast way to get your elite.

The next thing you do is attacking any computer you meet, just try, and as i said before, if you are lucky enough, you will create a GL at first battle your elite fight. (if you can't win that battle, just dig up the hatchet, and don't attack, try to pass a turn & defent to win the battle, or attack in next turn.)

That is the fastest way you get your GL.

At beginning, your first meeting with computer will be at a place where is in the middle of you and computer, so your GL will come back much more easy.
fanes7 is offline  
Old August 21, 2003, 06:48   #17
fanes7
Warlord
 
Local Time: 07:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 125
In PtW, the thing is more hard. Because the barbarians' attack & defence are all become 2, and they will hardly attack your warrior on their own initiative, so you can hardly upgrade your regular to elite.

And even if you have an elite, the computer will almost never attack a full hitpoint elite, so you can hardly get your GL by defence.

If you are not very professional in creating GL, I suggest you practice in civ3. That will be more helpful in create GLs.
fanes7 is offline  
Old August 21, 2003, 06:56   #18
fanes7
Warlord
 
Local Time: 07:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 125
Sorry my english is not very good, but I am very glad to communicating my experience with you, if you are realy absorbed in Civ3 you will do better, :-), &will get more GLs.
fanes7 is offline  
Old August 21, 2003, 07:23   #19
Flandrien
Civilization III PBEMIron Civers
King
 
Flandrien's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 1,506
Re: the Bible for playing to computer
Quote:
Originally posted by fanes7
try to win every battle, when you can't attack to win it, just try to defend to win it, when you can't defend to win, you can move to attack in next turn.
I suppose this means a lot of reloading.
I can see no other way of making sure you win a battle.
Not with this RNG.
__________________
veni vidi PWNED!
Flandrien is offline  
Old August 21, 2003, 10:33   #20
Sheik
Civilization III Democracy Game
King
 
Sheik's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,088
Reloading is when you play a turn and then open the previous save from the last turn and play the turn again. This is considered cheating. Now that I have defined reloading; is this what you do fanes7?

I agree with Flandrien that language definitely suggests he reloads the game.
__________________
For your photo needs:
http://www.canstockphoto.com?r=146

Sell your photos
Sheik is offline  
Old August 22, 2003, 00:15   #21
fanes7
Warlord
 
Local Time: 07:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 125
I saved the random gene, so the reloading can't change the battle result.

I want to transfer some save-files to this site, How should I do ?
fanes7 is offline  
Old August 22, 2003, 00:33   #22
fanes7
Warlord
 
Local Time: 07:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 125
ok, i uploaded, this is the scenario I play.

ver: Ptw1.14f

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/fan...urPleasure.rar
fanes7 is offline  
Old August 22, 2003, 06:02   #23
fanes7
Warlord
 
Local Time: 07:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 125
http://apolyton.net/upload/files/fan...3400«Oªp°c.SAV

This is my save-file, in this turn I fight out a GL.

You can try it.
;-)
fanes7 is offline  
Old August 22, 2003, 06:07   #24
fanes7
Warlord
 
Local Time: 07:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 125
http://apolyton.net/upload/files/fan...ªp°cKublai.SAV

Do you fight out it?

This is the savefile that the GL appear.
fanes7 is offline  
Old August 22, 2003, 10:14   #25
Sheik
Civilization III Democracy Game
King
 
Sheik's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,088
hey,

Quote:
Congratulations! You found a missing page http://apolyton.net/upload/files/fan...AAp%C2%B0c.SAV
If you care too much about it (or about the well-being of our site ) please report the error
Upload it so we can actually download it, just use the attachment feature when making a thread.
__________________
For your photo needs:
http://www.canstockphoto.com?r=146

Sell your photos
Sheik is offline  
Old August 22, 2003, 20:45   #26
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
Quote:
Originally posted by fanes7
Sorry my english is not very good, but I am very glad to communicating my experience with you, if you are realy absorbed in Civ3 you will do better, :-), &will get more GLs.
I will be considerate of the language issue. So I think you can presume that many players here are well aware of all the things you said about GL.
We played CivIII from day1 and are still playing. We know that it was common to pop a hut and get barbs. These barbs will attack your warrior and often cause an elite. This presumes that you win and do get two promotions, not a given.
With the advent of the first or second patch the RNG could be turned off. If you do not turn it off you can still reload and take a different set of actions to change the outcome. You could also wait to fight the next turn or defend as you say. This is still cheating IMO.
Of course if you have an elite and it wins a battle against the AI, you have a chance to get a leader. This is basically 1/16. This means you have a very small chance to get that leader. Now how you get from all of this to as many leaders as you would need to build all the ancient wonders is another matter altogether.
This all presuposes that you can even make contact that early.
The best way to go about giving advice is to not suggest that you are the final authority on the subject. It makes people get a bit testy.
When you make grand claims you are required to provide grand proof, otherwise people tend to dismiss your points.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old August 22, 2003, 20:49   #27
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
Quote:
Originally posted by fanes7
I saved the random gene, so the reloading can't change the battle result.

I want to transfer some save-files to this site, How should I do ?
The RNG can be subverted. Just chance the sequence of plays or wait till the next turn.

If the file is less than 500k it can be attached. If greater, zip it. Select POST REPLY, then see the browse button. Select it and then browse to the file and it will be attached if not too large and of the proper file type (sav/zip).
vmxa1 is offline  
Old August 22, 2003, 20:55   #28
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
Quote:
Originally posted by fanes7
[url]Do you fight out it?

This is the savefile that the GL appear.
Having a fight with an elite unit can generate a leader, we know this, so there is no point to doing that one battle.
Having a leader will allow you to rush a wonder, we know that. What we don't know is how to get enough leaders (fairly) to get all of the wonders.

What is needed is a start save at 4000bc and a detail log of the run with a save along the way to show the results of getting these wonders.
If you are using reloads to accomplish this, just say so and we can forget the whole thing.
None of this is to say you are or are not a good player, only that we are skeptical of the idea of getting all ancient wonders fairly. No editor, no pumped up maps, no reloads. If you can do that then I am prepare to bow down.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old August 22, 2003, 23:25   #29
Sheik
Civilization III Democracy Game
King
 
Sheik's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:35
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,088
If you can do a full thread with screenshots of all these wonders and GLs, and can provide us with saves and actual information we can use I too will bow down.
__________________
For your photo needs:
http://www.canstockphoto.com?r=146

Sell your photos
Sheik is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:35.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team