Just when I hould be celibrating the rug gets pulled out.

Oerdin · August 21, 2003, 22:40

I should be very happy today. Sure, this morning I went into a mortgage broker and found out the credit agency screwed up my credit report by putting other people's credit info on my report but that's recoverable. I called my parent's to tell them what had happened and my parents, who are really much better then I deserve, we're really cool and understanding. In fact my parents offered to co-sign on the loan so I could buy a home now rather then wait the 3-6 months it would take to sort out the credit agency's report. I was stunned but true to their word my parents both filed out the needed paper work and e-mailed it to the broker after which I (I should say my father) was pre-approved for a half million dollar mortgage.

Now, the cost range I was looking at was/is half that amount but it is still kind of cool to know old dad's signature can open up doors like that.

Any I was totaled stoked about it. I was excited that I was going to become a home owner and I was grateful to my parent's because with out them I seriously doubt I could have gotten a no points, low APR, fixed 30 year loan. The whole process took maybe 2 hours start to finish. So everything in the world is great, right?

Not any more, you see, because I just lost my job a few hours after that.

Yes, that's right and I can't entirely say it wasn't my fault. As some of you may remember about six weeks ago I got into a disagreement/misunderstanding with my boss. A certain bit of work was unclear as to just what needed to be done and I was unable to reach my boss by telephone despite multiple calls so I had to choice between shutting the job down or doing what I thought the memo said to do. Turns out it was mostly right but partially wrong and my boss was pissed. I showed him the memo with what he wrote and he agreed that it was poorly written but said I should have known what to do from the 700 page work plan that was written two years ago.

I didn't want to keep fighting so I told him I'd go out on the weekend and redo the work without charging the client or him any money. To this day I still feel I did the best with the crappy directions this fool wrote but that really doesn't matter any more.

So any way he said to make sure nothing like that happened again and over the last six weeks things went well and no bad data made it to any client. There was one time where two samples (out of hundreds done) got mixed up but it was caught due to a new QA/QC process that I put in place and it never reached the lab or the client.

So why did I get "let go"? The answer is politics and here's the details. One of the other departments in our (now their since I don't work there) company had a big project for the county of Sacramento where they were to develop and design a new data base (stupid to design a data base from scratch when MS access can be bought for $45) which would hold all of the water quality data for the county's drinking water over the last 25 years. No one wanted to do the data entry work so they called me in to do it. No problem. I listened intently as the man (we'll call him a-hole from now on) detailed which parts of the reports needed to be entered. I took copious notes and showed him my notes just to make sure I had written everything down correctly. He looked them over and agreed that the list I had completed was everything which needed to be entered into the database.

Now, if I had been smart I would have asked for a memo where he wrote out that he agreed on the scope of work. But he said things were really hectic, that the data base software was super buggy & crashed all the time (he was right there. The software was crap), and to top it off the client was still sending in all sorts of change order requests. So any way I spend the next 2.5 weeks entering in the data per the list and periodically checking back in with a-hole just to show him the progress and to make sure things are being done to his satisfaction. He always said he liked everything and never said anything was incorrect.

So I finish the project (this is a week ago) and hand in the last paper work. A-hole looks it over and starts to freak out on me. He says I totally didn't add in a certain lab I.D. so I recheck the list which he OKed and no where on the list is this lab sample ID number. I point this out to him and a-hole then says I must have left it off because he's 100% sure he told me. He begins yelling at me and telling me the project is 20% over budget, that his boss is looking over his shoulder and the reason is people like me who can't follow directions. I point out once again that all data was entered according to the list he O.K.ed but that I understand the project needs to be fixed and that I will gladly spend the extra time to enter in the lab ID.

A-hole then says "Damn, right you will and I won't pay for it either. You guys are going to do it for free". I then say to him that he can take it up with my boss but that the work was done to his specifications. So any way he goes and *****es and complains to my boss and then my boss comes to me and says that I need to fix the data, that I can only charge 25% of the time spent fixing the data, and that I was to only work on this project when there was no other billable work to be done. I figure the matter is closed and I slowly work (real slowly because I am now pissed off at a-hole) on the data base when I have nothing better to do.

A week passes and today rolls around; 3pm A-hole comes into our office and goes into my boss’s office. About 10 minutes pass and then my boss calls me in to join them. A-hole is frothing at the mouth. A-hole announces that his project is now 30% over budget and it was due today and I still haven't completed entering in the new data he tacked on. I point out to my boss that he said to work on fully billable work before a-hole's work after which my boss tells me thanks but I can go back to my cubical now. They stay in there for another 15 minutes then A-hole leaves; 30 minutes after a-hole left my boss calls me and asks me to come in to his office.

He tells me A-hole has just said his department won't give any more business to my department until the data is entered to his satisfaction. My boss then says that a-hole doesn't like me and that a-hole will make sure I never do any work for his department again. My boss says his department relies on other departments for much of our work and he can't keep people who alienate clients. I try to point out that I just did what he (my boss) told me to do and that a-hole's $600k over budget but less then $2-3k is from us. I tell him A-hole is flailing around looking for anyone to blame for his misbidding and then mismanaging the project. I tell him I will enter the data ASAP but that I was busy before and he (my boss) said not to work on it unless there wasn't any other work to do first.

My boss then says that he's sorry but he spoke with the other manager and they're going to have to let me go. Further he says he thinks he's being very fair with me and that I had broken the deal we made six weeks ago to not have any mistakes. I point out that, just as he specified no mistakes made it to clients, and that the sampling error from last week was caught because I started a new procedure where some one would review sampling information before it reached the client (before there was no QAQC if you can believe that). My boss then says the new procedure, which has one person briefly review the data before the client sees it, has driven up costs so I shouldn't be proud of it. How much does one person looking over the data for 20 minutes before the client sees it cost?

So anyway I'm told to clean out my desk and I don't get any severance pay and they just wrote me a check for my holiday and sick leave. That's it. I didn't have the heart to tell any of my friend’s who are co-workers (most had gone home any way) and so far I haven't even told my parents who were super happy about me getting pre-approved for a home loan.

The Mad Monk · August 21, 2003, 22:49

Get a lawywer, take it up with the labor board, and sue them to hell.

Asher · August 21, 2003, 22:51

Aw man, that's harsh.

You totally got the shaft there.

I wouldn't agree with Mad Monk though, cut your losses...it'd probably be impossible to prove anything in court. Your word against his.

Spiffor · August 21, 2003, 22:53

This company sucks, and these managers are utter *******s. Sue the eyes out of their orbits

Oerdin · August 21, 2003, 22:59

I really feel slighted. The worst part is I haven't told my parents or my landlord or my roommate. I have told my best friend in Seattle and a few of my college friends in southern California but the last time I spoke with my father was around 2pm today and both he and my mother were very happy that I had been approved for a home loan.

I don't know how to tell them what has happened. Or rather I do but I don't want to. I have bought several bottles and I think I'm just going to get plastered and tell them in the morning.

Asher · August 21, 2003, 23:00

Drinking won't help, and certainly it won't help to be hungover and tell them.

Just tell them how it is -- as you've said yourself, they seem to be great. I'm sure they'll understand completely, very sympathetic. It's not your fault, they'll know that.

mrmitchell · August 21, 2003, 23:03

If you can get another job that can keep you going, then you'll be glad they threw you over board. Doesn't sound like I'd want to work for them. Then again, a lot of bosses are like this. There's really not so much you can do about it.

mrmitchell · August 21, 2003, 23:05

Quote:

I really feel slighted. The worst part is I haven't told my parents or my landlord or my roommate. I have told my best friend in Seattle and a few of my college friends in southern California but the last time I spoke with my father was around 2pm today and both he and my mother were very happy that I had been approved for a home loan.

I don't know how to tell them what has happened. Or rather I do but I don't want to. I have bought several bottles and I think I'm just going to get plastered and tell them in the morning.

Don't get drunk. It'll just make you look like an ass. Try to figure out a way to tell them and do so...you've already won over strangers on the internet, you shouldn't have too much difficulty telling your parents?

Ted Striker · August 21, 2003, 23:30

Sorry about that man, that's bs.

MichaeltheGreat · August 21, 2003, 23:36

Quote:

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Get a lawywer, take it up with the labor board, and sue them to hell.

In California, you don't have a case unless you have a written agreement detailing that you have an employment contract for a fixed period, or unless the termination was in violation of a current written company policy that is incorporated directly or by reference into an employment agreement. Otherwise you're an at will employee, and unless your termination was provably in specific violation of a Federal or state statute, you're just SOL.

I've worked for chickenshit bastards like that. Ultimately, you're better off moving on - at least this didn't happen a week after you closed on a house, or you didn't get stuck there with miserable SOB's like that.

Employees in your type of professional job have a bit of a problem, in that you have very limited leverage to "force" a supervisor or employer to document everything.

One of the benefits of being self-employed is that I can only lose specific contracts (and it the client is an asswipe, you know he'll be squirrelly about payment anyway), not your whole business. In the last ten years, I've turned down more clients than I've done work for, precisely because they struck me as being squirrelly bastards, or simply incompetent.

Pekka · August 21, 2003, 23:43

I'm sorry man... that sounds like no justice. And with that house loan..

Don't get drunk if you can hold it together though.. get drunk later, not now.

To me, it sounds like you did what you were supposed to do, and had to handle extra crap that wasn't your fault even. I'd look the legal side of this and sue their asses of too, but I don't know how it goes there.

Next time someone starts giving you crap that is result from something that is not your fault, look deep into the complainers eye with bad intentions and say interrupting him 'Don't raise your voice on me' and point your finger at the guy. Don't look psycho, but look like you mean business. 95% of men are pussies, so they just shut their mouths. Then you can repair it a bit and say with nice voice 'this is not my fault, I'm doing everything there is to do to help you, please let me do my job and help me, or shut the f up'. I guess that would be the thing NOT to do if you want to keep jobs though.

But I'm sorry for your unfortunate day that surely wasn't your fault. Try to seek every ways to counter this. And don't get drunk if you can wait a bit. Maybe something can be done and it all turns out to be good.

notyoueither · August 21, 2003, 23:43

Oh man, Oerdin. This sucks. What a freakin' day!

As for other advice... get a lawyer. I employ people. I am vaguely familiar with labour practices where I am. I can guarantee you that the way you were handled would send off red lights if you were here. I can't believe CA would be that different.

The biggest thing you get out of getting a lawyer, especially if you have a case and can get one on contingency... is a-hole gets his dirty laundry aired way up the food chain from where he sits... I imagine that could have some satisfaction for you.

notyoueither · August 21, 2003, 23:45

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

In California, you don't have a case unless you have a written agreement detailing that you have an employment contract for a fixed period, or unless the termination was in violation of a current written company policy that is incorporated directly or by reference into an employment agreement. Otherwise you're an at will employee, and unless your termination was provably in specific violation of a Federal or state statute, you're just SOL.

Isn't he due severance, at least?

MichaeltheGreat · August 21, 2003, 23:47

Not unless there's a written policy, or an express provision in his employment contract.

All he's due is unused vacation time and pay for the hours worked, but not yet paid.

The only trick is that he has to be paid through the day they hand him the final check, since they're the moving party in the termination.

notyoueither · August 21, 2003, 23:51

What? You people put up with that shiet? Termination with no notice or compensation in lieu?

I guess the Democrats really are far right of our left.

notyoueither · August 21, 2003, 23:52

...or centre.

MichaeltheGreat · August 21, 2003, 23:52

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
As for other advice... get a lawyer. I employ people. I am vaguely familiar with labour practices where I am. I can guarantee you that the way you were handled would send off red lights if you were here. I can't believe CA would be that different.

From the 1970's to the mid 1980's, 1 out of every 5 employment terminations (for any reason that the employer initiated) ended up in litigation. The result was a huge decisional law and legislative backlash, and California now is very conservative on labor law issues, as is most of the western US outside of Oregon.

Most of the major issues (implied contracts, implied terms of employment, breach of good faith by employer) have been completely disposed of by the state Supreme Court, so getting a lawyer above an ambulance chaser to even offer to do more than write a nasty letter is a real trick. And even the ambulance chasers don't like labor cases, because they're hard work for a low probability of pay.

MichaeltheGreat · August 21, 2003, 23:56

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
What? You people put up with that shiet? Termination with no notice or compensation in lieu?

I guess the Democrats really are far right of our left.

The courts have dealt with it, and the state already taxes the hell out of employers, so changing the laws around more gets dicey.

California does have minimum wage above the Federal minimum, but in the US, labor law has long recognized that the employee is free to leave at any time, for any reason, without regard to the convenience of the employer, so the employer has similar rights to terminate at will.

The thing about severance is that companies may, and often do, offer it as a voluntary part of their policies, but they aren't obligated to do so.

notyoueither · August 21, 2003, 23:56

In Oerdin's case, the nasty letter might have the desired effect, if it gets the higher ups to notice what the a-hole did. That's what I'd shoot for.

A good case for wrongful dismisal can be very hard to make. Maybe it's there, maybe it's not. Getting a-hole fired would be my goal.

Pekka · August 21, 2003, 23:57

Definitely. Get back to the a-hole. If not in the form of a letter, I'd strongly suggest a parking lot meeting.

notyoueither · August 21, 2003, 23:59

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
The thing about severance is that companies may, and often do, offer it as a voluntary part of their policies, but they aren't obligated to do so.

Wow. I have only tried to withhold severance in one case. The guy was insubordinate, and had destroyed company property. In the end, I had to pay severance. Not much, two weeks, but it choked to have to sign that cheque.

Asher · August 22, 2003, 00:01

nye: In Alberta, is it law to give 2 weeks (as employee or employer), or just a courtesy guideline?

notyoueither · August 22, 2003, 00:06

It's the law, after the person has been with the company for 90 days. It goes up with time in. Not a lot, but some.

Some industries get around it. Restaurants and bars get around it by writing people off the schedule. They don't fire you, you just get no hours. So it is not great protection if you are hourly and scheduled.

If you are salaried or work a fixed schedule it is iron clad. Like I said, I had to write a cheque to a guy who destroyed company property because no one was an eye witness to the fact. Well, duh!

Oerdin · August 22, 2003, 00:08

Well, I called my father. I was little drunk when I spoke with him but he was really understanding. Honestly, it makes me feel worse that they are so understanding. I realy feel like I am partially to blame like if I had kissed the right ass I would still have a job and it is my fault.

Still, I'm going to call the unemployment office tommorow and registar with them. It won't be much but it should pay rent and for food. I do have about $10k saved up whic I was going to use to as a down payment for a house but one of my friends who just graduated with an MS in Engineering and who hasn't found a job yet has asked me to go on vacation to South America with him. Maybe just taking a break and going to PEru is what I need.

notyoueither · August 22, 2003, 00:10

Employees are expected to return the favour by giving notice, as a courtesy. They are under no legal obligation to do so.

Asher · August 22, 2003, 00:11

nye: Thanks!

Oerdin: It's not your fault, and your father recognizes that. He loves you regardless of your situations.

A vacation would be nice, but don't blow all your savings on that. You may need the money.

notyoueither · August 22, 2003, 00:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
Well, I called my father. I was little drunk when I spoke with him but he was really understanding. Honestly, it makes me feel worse that they are so understanding. I realy feel like I am partially to blame like if I had kissed the right ass I would still have a job and it is my fault.

Still, I'm going to call the unemployment office tommorow and registar with them. It won't be much but it should pay rent and for food. I do have about $10k saved up whic I was going to use to as a down payment for a house but one of my friends who just graduated with an MS in Engineering and who hasn't found a job yet has asked me to go on vacation to South America with him. Maybe just taking a break and going to PEru is what I need.

It sounds like this is very far from your fault. You should feel no shame. On the bright side, you now have experience in your field. Getting another job should not be too hard.

Keep Canada in mind if the hunt down there does not pan out. There are many companies needing geologists, especially the oil industry, and getting a work permit is supposed to be very easy. Just gets a little chilly from time to time.

MichaeltheGreat · August 22, 2003, 00:51

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
In Oerdin's case, the nasty letter might have the desired effect, if it gets the higher ups to notice what the a-hole did. That's what I'd shoot for.

A good case for wrongful dismisal can be very hard to make. Maybe it's there, maybe it's not. Getting a-hole fired would be my goal.

It's tough to even get the shyster lawyers to write a letter without paying for it, though.

Let me give you an example:

I had a friend with an eight-year employment history at the company that shafted her, and eight years of reviews as the top overall employee in a department that varied from 13 people to 18 employees plus 15 temps. She went out on a company approved unpaid disability leave due to an MS attack and onset of fibromyalgia. The seven previous year of her employment, the company had a written policy that unpaid medical or disability leaves could be up to one year. The last year she worked there, the policy was changed to 16 weeks, but the company could, if it decided to in it's sole discretion, extend to a year. When she went out, she filed for disability insurance, but they directed her to worker's comp, since she said that she'd complained about workstation ergonomics and all the company did was swap her chair with someone else's, while they were all working 55 hour weeks (as they did every summer when they were publishing new editions of their manuals).

She files the worker's comp claim, as directed by the private disability insurer (who denied her on the basis that the injury was work related).

In her medical history, which she gave honestly, she admitted to being on prescribed antidepressents intermittently since her onset of MS, primarily as a result of fatigue and depression related to the MS. (never mind this didn't prevent her from being the top evaluated employee in her department every single year.)

She was also having what appeared to be her second MS attack in seven years.

She was directed to worker's comp because her primary complaint was partial loss of mobility of one shoulder, with accompanying muscle spasms, and chronic severe pain in the upper back and shoulder.

So what kind of doc does the worker's comp insurer refer her to? A shrink, who also exclusively sees worker's comp claimants, exclusively as a contractor to worker's comp insurers. So the shrink decides she has "a case of sour grapes" and "a negative attitude" but no disability - despite the fact he has no medical qualification to make any finding as to the type of injury she has.

She gets denied worker's comp, so I help her file a complaint with the state worker's comp appeals board, on the grounds that the insurer never examined the injury claimed as the cause of work disability, the doc who did the examination was unqualified in the requisite medical specialty, and was overtly biased and professionally inappropriate in his "examination."

Meanwhile, the 16 weeks unpaid leave runs out, she's doing better, but not able to go back to work (per the directive of her regular doc). She requests an extension of the unpaid disability leave for three more weeks, and it's summarily denied, but they don't notify her until the second to last day of the sixteen weeks - they sit on the written notice until she calls, then claim they thought she was going to come back and pick it up. They also say that since she filed a workers comp claim, even though the insurance quack denied it, she needs a signoff from a worker's comp insurer approved doc that she's ready to return to work before they'll allow her to report back. She finds this out on a Thursay afternoon, because they sit on a notice for two weeks and she has to have this in hand on a Monday morning, from an insurance approved doc?

Monday morning comes, she obviously couldn't get the approval in time, she calls HR first thing, and she's told that she has been terminated from employment, as the department she is working in is reducing permanent staff by one. This despite the fact that they still have half a dozen temps and are working some OT?

First WCAB (worker's comp appeal board) appeal is successful, and pretty quick. She gets a state-ordered exam by another insurance doc, but this one's an orthopedist who specializes in shoulder injuries. Despite being an insurance doc, he writes up a report that it's his opionion that the injury is work-related, that the disability is likely to be permanent, and that the combination of chronic pain and inoperable loss of mobility adds up to a 14% partial permanent disability. So far, so good, right?

Workers comp insurance comes back with a decision that they'll cover the medical expense, reimburse the state for state disability, but pay nothing for retraining or long term disability, as their disability employment consultant has dertermined that there are part time jobs in the national economy for one-armed graphic artists. WTF??????

So, it's off to WCAB appeal round two, and this time, several of those helpful folks from the state are downright nasty, although some are cool. It's also wrongful discharge time, because there's enough factual holes in the discharge to drive a truck through. (another employee from another department with less tenure and lower performance reviews granted a disability extension, reduction in permanent staff only in her department, only by one employee, but while there are still temps and people working OT, visible change in treatment from supervisors once she filed a worker's comp claim).

On the wrongful discharge side, of 22 lawyers we talked to, only three would do initial consultation without charge, the rest weren't even interested in discussing it. All three of those turned out to be BS game players, one that talked a good game wrote a little letter that went from HR to their corporate counsel, and then played games with "expenses" including his time before litigation - that the contingency only applied if there was a suit, or a settlement prior to suit, but once the company's lawyers told him to shove it, my friend owed for his time and expense. That went to the State Bar of California for a professional ethics complaint. The Bar did nothing officially, but the payment hustle went away and he released his files.

The end result of this was that she netted some $7,500 and further medical care on the Worker's Comp Appeal Side, and went absolutely nowhere on the wrongful discharge side, despite a ton of "soft" (i.e. not sufficient in a legal sense) evidence that she was retaliated against for the worker's comp filing.

This is typical of state labor law now - I've been involved on both sides of several labor law and discharge issues. Unless there is an obvious, airtight case of illegal discrimination or retaliation, you're just SOL.

MichaeltheGreat · August 22, 2003, 01:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
Well, I called my father. I was little drunk when I spoke with him but he was really understanding. Honestly, it makes me feel worse that they are so understanding. I realy feel like I am partially to blame like if I had kissed the right ass I would still have a job and it is my fault.

The question is, do you want to be in a position where you're dealing with miserable SOB's like that, and you have to constantly figure out which is the right ass to kiss and how they like it kissed? Professionally, you're better off in the long run not to associate with such losers.

Quote:

Still, I'm going to call the unemployment office tommorow and registar with them. It won't be much but it should pay rent and for food. I do have about $10k saved up whic I was going to use to as a down payment for a house but one of my friends who just graduated with an MS in Engineering and who hasn't found a job yet has asked me to go on vacation to South America with him. Maybe just taking a break and going to Peru is what I need.

Registering with unemployment is good, but you have to really think about your situation and prospects before I'd recommend the vacation.

notyoueither · August 22, 2003, 01:11

That storey sucks to hear, Michael, but it's not directly equivalent is it?

Here, Oerdin does everything he is told, gets the supervisor to agree to what he is doing, then gets blamed for the supervisor's incompetence by the supervisor as way of covering ass (that sounds like it to me).

He is not dealing with the sharks that run a company and who want to abuse a diabled or ill employee, he is dealing with a middle management disaster and would be doing the firm a favour by getting that to the attention of the directors of the company. Not to mention that if there are grounds for wrongful dismisal, which to me it sounds like it, then he could come out of it with some compensation.

At the bottom line, the a-hole gave faulty instructions, in an inappropriate manner, and then deprived Oerdin of employment as a consequence of the failure of the project. I'd be looking for a lawyer to sue that sucker personally for whatever I could find to sue him for. Naming the company also would just speed along the misery for that individual.

At least, if I wanted either revenge or redress, and I would, that is what I would do.