Thread Tools
Old August 26, 2003, 18:41   #61
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
DD: No... the fetus is either a person OR a nonperson. It cannot be BOTH. Therefore the status should not change based on whether the woman wants the child or not. Ramo is saying that it makes no sense for the fetus to be a person if the woman wants it, and for it to be a nonperson if the woman does not want it.

See?!
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old August 26, 2003, 18:58   #62
The Templar
Prince
 
The Templar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: People's Republic of the East Village
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
DD: No... the fetus is either a person OR a nonperson. It cannot be BOTH.
Ever heard of fuzzy logic? The rule of the excluded middle isn't a rule (that's classical logic).

Just nitpicking. The rest of what follows is right - human status does not change with choice.
__________________
- "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
- I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
- "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming
The Templar is offline  
Old August 27, 2003, 00:38   #63
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
Quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
Ever heard of fuzzy logic? The rule of the excluded middle isn't a rule (that's classical logic).
I think you have confused the Law of the Exclude Middle with the Law of Non-Contradiction.

Just nitpicking
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old August 27, 2003, 00:52   #64
The Templar
Prince
 
The Templar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: People's Republic of the East Village
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I think you have confused the Law of the Exclude Middle with the Law of Non-Contradiction.

Just nitpicking
Nope. Excluded middle says that a proposition is true or false. Non-contradiction says that two contradictory sentences cannot have the same truth value.

Imran was arguing that a fetus is a person or not. Actually a fetus is a developmental stage in the process of a zygote becoming human. I would argue that 'human' is a fuzzy predicate - i.e. one that can be more or less true of an individual.

Fuzzy logic (in some forms) would set 1 as absolute truth and 0 as absolute falsehood. In classical logic, you would have only 1 and 0. In Fuzzy logic, you can have a whole continuum of truth values inbetween 1 and 0. So we could say for x that when x is a zygote 'x is human' has a truth value of .01 - because a zygote has almost no characteristics in common with a full grown human. If x is a fetus, we might say that 'x is human' has a truth value of .25 - more characteristics in common. By the thrird trimester, 'x is human' might have a value of .8 - and then we might put heavy restrictions on abortion to reflect this. Usually this explanation is carried out with the predicate 'bald' - i.e. there is no exact metaphysical number of hairs below which on is bald.

Again, there is no contradiction because truth values are non-bivalent. Of course, the rule of indirect proof has much weaker inferential power because contradiction is harder to obtain with fuzzy predicates.
__________________
- "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
- I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
- "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming
The Templar is offline  
Old August 27, 2003, 04:15   #65
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 08:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
DD: No... the fetus is either a person OR a nonperson. It cannot be BOTH.
Why not? "Person" is a status that is composed of several legal positions; a fetus can have some of them, not necessarily all. Is that enough to make it a "person"? Depends on your definition of person. But definitions can't answer specific questions.

Eg in our civil law (and others based on roman law), the fetus (nasciturus) has personal rights conditional on birth. The nasciturus can, for example, inherit. Says nothing about other personal rights like a right to life.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old August 27, 2003, 08:07   #66
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
Quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
Nope. Excluded middle says that a proposition is true or false. Non-contradiction says that two contradictory sentences cannot have the same truth value.
Non-Contradiction: A fetus can be a person, or can be a non-person, but not both at the same time.

Excluded Middle: You can believe in God or you don't. "I don't know" is not an answer.

Quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
Imran was arguing that a fetus is a person or not. Actually a fetus is a developmental stage in the process of a zygote becoming human. I would argue that 'human' is a fuzzy predicate - i.e. one that can be more or less true of an individual.
However, at any given moment in time, a fetus may have sufficient characteristics of a human being to become one, or that it hasn't.

Quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
Again, there is no contradiction because truth values are non-bivalent.
This can only be true if there are varying degrees of being a human being, like you can quantity something to be, lets say, 4/5 a human being.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old August 27, 2003, 13:41   #67
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
Actually a fetus is a developmental stage in the process of a zygote becoming human. I would argue that 'human' is a fuzzy predicate - i.e. one that can be more or less true of an individual.
Templar:

On what grounds, besides personal opinion do you say that one can become a human yet not start out as one?

Every other species works that way. You have fetal pigs, fetal horses, etc. The species gets determined at conception. Why should humans be so different?
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old August 27, 2003, 13:46   #68
yavoon
Warlord
 
Local Time: 07:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
Quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18


Templar:

On what grounds, besides personal opinion do you say that one can become a human yet not start out as one?

Every other species works that way. You have fetal pigs, fetal horses, etc. The species gets determined at conception. Why should humans be so different?
I'm pretty sure we're capable of determining the species before birth.
yavoon is offline  
Old August 27, 2003, 13:56   #69
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Yavoon:

If we can determine species before birth, what species are our unborn children?
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old August 27, 2003, 13:57   #70
yavoon
Warlord
 
Local Time: 07:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
Quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Yavoon:

If we can determine species before birth, what species are our unborn children?
human captain. unless u r an alien. in which case u really should tell me these things!
yavoon is offline  
Old August 27, 2003, 20:16   #71
Joseph
King
 
Joseph's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Ca. USA
Posts: 1,282
Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Non-Contradiction: A fetus can be a person, or can be a non-person, but not both at the same time.

Excluded Middle: You can believe in God or you don't. "I don't know" is not an answer.



However, at any given moment in time, a fetus may have sufficient characteristics of a human being to become one, or that it hasn't.



This can only be true if there are varying degrees of being a human being, like you can quantity something to be, lets say, 4/5 a human being.
Question.
Which one of you guys was not a fetus at the start of your life?
When each of you can answer that, then you just might understand that all of us are a fetus before be are born, and therefore, all of us are a human at conception and not just a thing. Thing don't grow, we do.
Joseph is offline  
Old August 27, 2003, 20:52   #72
St Leo
Scenario League / Civ2-CreationApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
St Leo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In search of pants
Posts: 5,085
Which one of you guys was not a fetus at the start of your life?

/me raises hand

I was an infant.

Thing don't grow, we do.

Unless the things are stalactites and stalagmites.:P
__________________
Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.com
St Leo is offline  
Old August 28, 2003, 00:18   #73
The Templar
Prince
 
The Templar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: People's Republic of the East Village
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18


Templar:

On what grounds, besides personal opinion do you say that one can become a human yet not start out as one?
This is something of a linguistic trick. For shame!

Human beings start out as chemicals - large organic molecules. So on the one hand, the question could be at what point do chemicals become human. Or, if you prefer, at what point do you emerge from chemicals? We could have a reasonable disagreement here. That is we could disagree as to whether a fetus is chemistry or humanity.

What about fuzzy logic here? Most things do not come into being all at once. A car or a TV must be assembled from parts. An oak tree must develop from an acorn or a butterfly from a caterpillar. Likewise, you don't come into being all at once. People develop. Now there is no reason to suppose that there is a point where there is an instantaneous transition from chemistry to personhood. In fact, we could say that the gestation process is a process whereby chemicals become human. The collection of chemicals becomes more human (or 'x is human' gains truth value) as the process continues. Same thin with an acorn. If you plant the acorn, it will become a tree - but a seed is not a tree. Nor is a sapling. 'Tree' applies more to a sapling than a seed.

Your question 'On what grounds, besides personal opinion do you say that one can become a human yet not start out as one?' proves too much. How can a mass of proteins become a human if they do not start out as one? The answer is via a process they may gradually form a human being.

Quote:
Every other species works that way. You have fetal pigs, fetal horses, etc. The species gets determined at conception. Why should humans be so different?
This is a philosophical red herring. Two reasons:

(1) Species gets determined at conception, but that does not entail that the chemicals present at conception will become human. The chemicals aren't human until they are human. You point only makes sense if you assume that that which will become human is in fact already human. I argue that a fetus is not human, therefore it is not human even if it may become human.

(2) It may be possible to replace the DNA of a zygote with the DNA of a similar species (say chimp DNA in a human zygote). In which case you lose even the point that species is determined at conception.
__________________
- "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
- I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
- "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming
The Templar is offline  
Old August 28, 2003, 00:25   #74
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Zygote votes for Schwarzenegger, but seminal fluid is supporting Davis!

Miscarriage joins army, says 'Life didn't start out so good, but know I'm hoping to make something of myself.'

Placenta divorces foetus- 'We were just drifting apart. We had nothing in common any more.'


gaud... can we nuke the South yet? first the assault on the Constitution in Alabama, now this...
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old August 28, 2003, 01:30   #75
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
Quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
On what grounds, besides personal opinion do you say that one can become a human yet not start out as one?
Haven't we been through this like a zillion times before?

Sure, we start out as humans, because fertilised human eggs got human DNA - but you miss the point.

The point is not whether we started as humans, but when will a zygote/embryo/fetus become a human being.

Don't forget, all the cells in your body (okay, except sperms and red blood cells) got human DNA too.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old August 28, 2003, 02:04   #76
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
And just how many saints are dancing on the head of this pin?
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old August 28, 2003, 02:06   #77
st_swithin
CTP1/2 GODDESS
 
Local Time: 07:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: 10069
Posts: 198
The intro screen on my cell phone says:

"#include phone_number.h"
st_swithin is offline  
Old August 28, 2003, 02:27   #78
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
Are you asking for my phone number?
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old August 28, 2003, 03:36   #79
Sikander
King
 
Sikander's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Posts: 1,417
Quote:
Originally posted by The Templar

That sound you hear is the cognitive dissonace in your head.
Really? I swear it sounds like Hendrix.
__________________
He's got the Midas touch.
But he touched it too much!
Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!
Sikander is offline  
Old August 28, 2003, 03:55   #80
Sikander
King
 
Sikander's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Posts: 1,417
Btw, it's nice to see that almost everyone arguing here has a well-thought out position.
__________________
He's got the Midas touch.
But he touched it too much!
Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!
Sikander is offline  
Old August 28, 2003, 04:45   #81
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:43
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
I argue that a fetus is not human
Quote:
(1) Species gets determined at conception,
Templar:

Methinks we are in the land of semantics.

I define human as of the species homo sapians sapians.

Therefore to be human = of the human species.

A better argument for your thoughts would be to say that the unborn child is human, though not a person. I suggest strongly that you take this course.

Quote:
Now there is no reason to suppose that there is a point where there is an instantaneous transition from chemistry to personhood.
There we go. Please make a distinction between personhood and human. Otherwise your sentences make my head hurt.

Now I ask, why should an infant qualify for personhood, or you since we are all just a sack of complex molecules?

UR:

(You + Templar)

Human being = person

(Me)

Human being = member of human species

Therein lies the confusion.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:43.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team