Spite and Malice....

[Harovan]

Thanks Panzer and Ghengis! May be there's still hope out there. By the way, I may be insulted and weary of the game, but I wouldn't bother a mod with that stuff, that's far below my level.

Hot_Enamel: You're missing the point. Even if we were being picked on and everyone had sworn vendetta against us (which I'm sure is not the case), it wouldn't drive me away, because that's part of the game. But being attacked and constantly called a bunch of arrogant and dishonorable *******s (insert other words in the same sense, if you like) is a little too much.

[Arnelos]

Look, I like being honest about these things.

For the record, the campaign to prevent Trip from becoming a Consul had backing from far more than GoW people. I will even admit that I was partially involved in that by being the one who got Ninot to run for Consul when I dropped out (and Ninot is definately no fan of Trip). I remember who the ring-leaders of that were because some of them were the ones trying to get me to run for Consul. There were members of multiple teams on that, not just GoW. I think the difference on that piece of ISDG history was that while many who didn't want Trip to be a Consul thought he'd make a fabulous Minister of War, some of the GoW camp believed he couldn't even be trusted with that.

I think most of us who had not voted for Trip to be Consul actually voted in favor of Trip to be the Minister of War, a position for which we agreed he was ideally suited. Looking back, I think things turned out rather well. Trip has done an admirable job being the military advisor. Trip doesn't always get along with the Consuls, but that's part of his job.

Quite frankly, I'm actually rather impressed with Trip's performance as an advisor from what I've seen in the ISDG so far (granted that I was gone for several months). He knows his stuff and that fact became far more apparent to people after the memory of Lux getting trashed in the PTWDG receeded into the past and Trip's knowledge of Civ3 was made apparent in the ISDG internal forum.

[Aggie]

I wasn't a member of the ISDG then, but it sounds like the old DIA vs WarMonger dispute from what I recall of the old game. We all remember the famous election between those two. I'll be the first to say that Lux's defeat wasn't trips fault. They simply were in a unwinnable postion unless they had had the best luck in the world. Even then it would have been difficult. With 3 civ's that close 1 must go. For the record it was Trips planning and organization that lead to the great recovery from a poor start in the fist Civ3 demogame. Remember that victory was no way assured from our start, actually it was start many peple would have thrown out and restarted.
Aggie

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Aggie
but it sounds like the old DIA vs WarMonger dispute from what I recall of the old game.
Aggie

I think that also had a lot to do with the Roleplay/GoW issue. Some of the hostility has continued from DIA/Hawk to Roleplay/GoW.

[UnOrthOdOx]

This old Hawk can say without any presumptions that the fact that there was a certain concentration of DIA members on RP it most certainly did play into his voting. At least as much as the Togas incident early in the game.

So, yes, I am guilty of targeting RP slightly more than other teams before the game started simply due to their members, though I would have laid that aside until the incident that happened IN this game. Beyond that I admit to deriving a little pleasure from being at war with the DIA members of RP.

[GhengisFarb™]

I didn't have anything against the DIA, but I had issues with Sunshine so that definitely tainted my mood towards them.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Aggie
For the record it was Trips planning and organization that lead to the great recovery from a poor start in the fist Civ3 demogame. Remember that victory was no way assured from our start, actually it was start many peple would have thrown out and restarted.

That was not or at least not only Trips planning. It mainly was notyoueithers Case Pink/Case Teal archer rush plans, that got us out of the jungle. After a poor 8-tile-grassland-all-else-jungle start and Timelines horrible waste of a godsent free settler to build a jungle city () the game was seriously in danger.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


That was not or at least not only Trips planning. It mainly was notyoueithers Case Pink/Case Teal archer rush plans, that got us out of the jungle. After a poor 8-tile-grassland-all-else-jungle start and Timelines horrible waste of a godsent free settler to build a jungle city () the game was seriously in danger.

Hey Hey!

I'm starting to get emotionally damaged from the anger radiating off Sir Ralph here.

Ohhhhh, the agony...............

[UnOrthOdOx]

Yes, Case Pink/Teal was the savior.

As for the Jungle city...was that polled on or did Timeline just plop it down in a chat? Can't remember. If it was polled, though, it was not his fault.

Where is Timeline, anyway? There's an old DIA president I wish was also on RP....

[Harovan]

He plopped it down in a chat. If it was polled, it can have been only a "minipoll" during the chat.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
This old Hawk can say without any presumptions that the fact that there was a certain concentration of DIA members on RP it most certainly did play into his voting. At least as much as the Togas incident early in the game.

So, yes, I am guilty of targeting RP slightly more than other teams before the game started simply due to their members, though I would have laid that aside until the incident that happened IN this game. Beyond that I admit to deriving a little pleasure from being at war with the DIA members of RP.

Um... Togas was never a member of the DIA, but a good HALF of the members of Legoland were - this just doesn't make any sense

We did get a few DIA members in RP, but almost all of them are inactive (reminds me of the DIA, actually...).

[UnOrthOdOx]

*Sigh*

I know for a fact that many of the members on Legoland were those who wished to form a more PERFECT DIA. A TRUE builder's team. Not one that spouts lies and propoganda while doing the opposite such as the DIA.

No, Togas was never DIA, neither was WIA nor several other members of RP I can name. DIA leaders sure congregated to RP (yourself and Thud of mention here, Ninot to a lesser extent), though, while those who were not entirely happy with some of those leaders decisions (civman of special note here) congregated to Legoland.

And who said I have to make sense?

I would think by now everyone knows I make little sense most of the time.

[Aggie]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


That was not or at least not only Trips planning. It mainly was notyoueithers Case Pink/Case Teal archer rush plans, that got us out of the jungle. After a poor 8-tile-grassland-all-else-jungle start and Timelines horrible waste of a godsent free settler to build a jungle city () the game was seriously in danger.

I realize that Sir Ralph, I couldn't recall the details of who did what and when. Since I was too lazy to look back and felt Trip deserved a good word put in for him I used that in his favor(i figured being pres that term was worth something). But nye's plan was the key I admit. I just wanted people to know that Trip had shown good civ ability before and the Lux defeat wasn't indicative of his skill. But I did bring back the old DIA/Hawks fight so I must have hit a nerve somewhere. Also your War Academy and all the idea's their played a key part too in the sucess of the game.
Aggie

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Arnelos
We did get a few DIA members in RP, but almost all of them are inactive (reminds me of the DIA, actually...).

Which, in my mind is the true spirit of the DIA. They claim to be one thing but do the exact opposite. The party of Hypocrisy.

To me, Roleplay just went on with the DIA's warbanner and continued with the same mindset. Legoland, on the other hand stayed true to their central goal and building philosophy and never deviated from it (to my knowledge).

[vondrack]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Legoland, on the other hand stayed true to their central goal and building philosophy and never deviated from it (to my knowledge).

It is only fair to note, though, that Legoland had a starting location ALLOWING (rather, FORCING, actually) to stick to the builder's theme.

[Panzer32]

Vondrack, agreed

I think if GoW was where legos is we would have invited Vox just so we could take some cities

[Togas]

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
Some RP members refuse to believe that their earlier in-game actions are the sole cause the the current war against them. (GoW perspective) I dont really care if they belive it or not, but I will respond to any post that says that GoW or ND are the aggressors in this war. Our actions are in response to early RP diplomatic aggresiveness (They call it negotiating from the postion of power) that made RP too difficult to ally with.

This statement is far more insulting than any of the silliness that Ghengis posts. I don't know if H_E is dumb enough to actually buy into this, I doubt it though. There's not a single person outside of GoW that gives this "explaination" for the war anything other than a scoff and a giggle.

But H_E and others keep preaching the gospel of "RP was a bully" like it's oh so obvious and oh so rational. Painting GoW as the poor, picked on Civ who was bullied by their much stronger very distant neighbors and couldn't possibly ever work with them... It goes something like this:

[warmongervoice] What is the SOLE CAUSE of our war on the Spam team?? How dare you question that?! Why, seven months ago they wouldn't trade with us unless we pulled back our warrior from where their undefended settler was going and NO ONE tells US what to do! RARRRR!! They made us wait 4 turns for Writing and for that we will never forgive them! They are bullies and must be destroyed! (ND, are not bullies. Sure, they killed Lux for scouting in their territory, but ND is our friends so, of course we ignore what they did.)

So what if we traded with RP after that. So what if we made lots of deals and pacts and treaties? So what if we sold them tech for good prices and made secret tech and map sharing pacts with them? We were just fooling them into trusting us. We always hated them! RARRRR!!! They didn't give us writing for FOUR TURNS! How can you ever forget that?!!

What, you say? We schemed with them against Lux, Vox, GS, *and* ND? We didn't mean any of that, we weren't their friends, we were just pretending. We ALWAYS hated RP, we just pretended to get along with them. That MPP against ND? We never meant to abide by it, that was just a joke... oh, and I forgot to tell you that RP made us sign that. Yeah, they did.

Togas, he's the worst of them. He's a bully. He threatened to ... um ... not buy tech from us. Yeah, that's it! He threatened to not buy tech from us unless we did everything he wanted. How can you live under that kind of tyrany? We sure couldn't! He deserves death! RARRR!!!

Bullies like that need to be punished. They deserve to be wiped out for being so mean to us. And they deserve to be laughed at too for not being able to fight us and ND at the same time.

RARRRR!!!
[/warmongervoice]

It's so ridiculous it's absurd, and so absurd it's funny. But over time, when the joke gets old and the funniness wears off when you see this idiotic point of view continues to be preached like the gospel it grates on your nerves until it becomes too painful to read and then you begin to seethe with anger.

So much so that our relations with many GoW team members are strained out of the game. I flatly refuse to work with several members of GoW and generally avoid talking to many of them now. There is no longer any hope of reconciliation, or peace, as the trash talking and constant lieing have burned every possible bridge, not only in this game, but likely in future games as well. Some of my team members feel even more strongly than this. Some of them, luckily, do not feel as strongly as I, but all of them, without question, have chosen to harm GoW in every conceivable way in-game, self-interest be damned. Taking two teams effectively out of the running and turning the remainder of the game into a very bitter grudge match.

We have no such feeling about ND. We patched up our past issues with GS, GS and Vox patched up. But GoW, it seems, may never recover from the hatred they have brewed up in the hearts of their enemies. If they patch things up with GS later in the game, I'll be extremely surprised, but there is no hope, and I promise you this, of thing ever being even cordial between RP and GoW.

--Togas

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by Arnelos
Um... Togas was never a member of the DIA, but a good HALF of the members of Legoland were - this just doesn't make any sense

We did get a few DIA members in RP, but almost all of them are inactive (reminds me of the DIA, actually...).

Actually, of the Lego members who have ever been active, I count only two DIAers (Spiffor and Nimitz). Spiffor's been inactive for quite a while, and Nimitz is gone right now too. So far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a DIA team.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Togas
This statement is far more insulting than any of the silliness that Ghengis posts.

Finally, at least someone recognizes it supposed to be silly.

Originally posted by Togas There's not a single person outside of GoW that gives this "explaination" for the war anything other than a scoff and a giggle.

I actually have had other teams express these feelings.

Originally posted by Togas But H_E and others keep preaching the gospel of "RP was a bully" like it's oh so obvious and oh so rational. Painting GoW as the poor, picked on Civ who was bullied by their much stronger very distant neighbors and couldn't possibly ever work with them...

This is true. I admit it. We are a patheticly backwards team with very little ability to defend ourselves. We spend the time between getting saves huddled at MZO worriedly chattering away at whether or not we will exist next turn. Discussing when the GS stealth fleet hovering along the sea tiles just outside of our view is finally going to land. Trembling in fear at the 30 odd GS Knights patrolling the south. Wondering where in the heck Roleplay's 30+ units are. We are an insecure little people who just want to go back to our tulip gardens........

Originally posted by Togas
[warmongervoice]
Yada yada......
RARRRR!!!
yada yada
RARRR!!!
yada yada
RARRRR!!!
[/warmongervoice]

Very good! You would make an excellent little Warmonger. Well, you would have to take a bath first....

[Theseus]

It sounds like a college football cheer.

[Hot_Enamel]

Togas,

You really should post more.
You have by far the most enjoyable posts to read.

[Panzer32]

We're irrational? So what?

[Aggie]

Togas, I regret that events have caused such pain. Obviously events happened that I was unaware of and I didn't realize the depth of hostility that exist(clearly on both sides). I have found that this is a bad side of multi-team games and it has tainted much of the enjoyment I find in them. Additionally the fact that I am destroying what somebody put such effort into creating also takes away from the enjoyment. When an AI is eliminated there is always excitment and celebration, but at this point I only feel regret that nothing can be done to keep you and your team in this game in a constructive way(as was done by Gs with vox). Unforunately past hatreds and disputes(and geography) make this almost impossible. If the day should come when rp will be eliminated that day will be one of sadness for me, just as it would be if vox,Gs, or lego is eliminated. Destroying what people have spend the better part of 6 months building definitely is not very rewarding, especially when people seem to be as hurt as we are now seeing.
Aggie

[GhengisFarb™]

Are you kidding? If my team was wiped out I would join the team that did the wiping. I would them spend the rest of the game pretending to be the Warmonger Underground. I wouldn't actually give away secrets as that would be cheating but everytime something bad happened to the team I would issue a statement claiming responsibility for it.

[Panzer32]

You know its bad when a deal goes out as this:

-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold, all now.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing, now.
-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.

and comes back, with no mention of the changes, as this:

-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold in exchange for writing.
-Roleplay Gives: Writing, after removal of warriors.
-Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team.
- Both Basher & Basher Jr. must be removed.
- Removal consists of moving to a point north of Saragossa. Saragossa is located on the southern edge of the jungle.

It takes 10 turns to move to N of Saragossa

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please do not misunderstand my meaning by posting this... maybe it should go under a thread entitles "declassification of snippets of the GoW forum".

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Hot_Enamel: You're missing the point. Even if we were being picked on and everyone had sworn vendetta against us (which I'm sure is not the case), it wouldn't drive me away, because that's part of the game. But being attacked and constantly called a bunch of arrogant and dishonorable *******s (insert other words in the same sense, if you like) is a little too much.

You are correct, I missed the point of your post. You are saying you did not like some of the posts, and I can appreciate and understand it.
Earlier posts were done in the heat of the “battle” and some tempers had flared. From both sides.
We are all human after all. And I don’t think it will stop. I too have a game face and will vent my spleen on occasion. But I do not take anything posted personally. Life is simply too short for that.
It is my impression however, that most of the posts now are calmer analysis of recent events. I don’t recall any recent posts that has called GS’s honor into question ?

Maybe that is only my perception?? I don’t know, but I am quite at ease reading the claims and counter claims, as very few posts have been personal in nature (Togas excluded ). And those that are personal, I tend to ignore as I am only interested in in-game events & posts. I am here to play a game only.

I think it all comes down to state of mind.
This game was a training game. Started to ensure that mistakes are identified and not repeated in the ISDG
I joined to learn tactics from superior players.
I am playing this game to win, but spend most of my time learning.

I have a long list of “mistakes” made by the GoW team.
And I have a list of mistakes that, from the GoW perspective, were made by other teams.
I play my current PBEM’s very differently now, from when I started because of this game.

When I post that one of the reasons for the GoW war against RP was that they are diplomatic bullies, it is not done to intimidate or goad them into a response. It is simply to ensure it is known in the public forum that the GoW made the decision based on in-game events and there was some rational thought behind it. It was simply too hard to ally with RP. Perhaps there is grudge or two, but the decision to do it was a team one. Approved by even the most level headed of us.

If Togas (Whom I would still greet with a handshake and buy him a beer if he ever drops in on Oz) cannot step back and say, “Yep, we screwed that up. That’s a lesson learnt”, then it is his loss and not mine.

{Edit} Not that I would expect Togas to say that in a public forum.
Likewise, I also do not post GoW “mistakes”

[Harovan]

Good to see that matter finally settled. I don't have (and as much as I see neither of our team has) any problem with us being attacked. That's what that game is for, and the only question that would bother me is, whether Imperial City will be taken or razed. A different thing is, if these in-game attacks are accompanied by flames and personal attacks here in the forums, like it was about 2 weeks ago. This kills the joy I have with this game. It drives me away not because I'm mentally damaged (like Ghengis implies), but because I can think of a shitload of more enjoyable things I can spend my scarce spare time with, than to waste it with a bunch of immature ranters, who don't know how adult people communicate.

[BigFree]

You know its bad when a deal goes out as this:

Quote:

-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold, all now. -Roleplay Gives: Writing, now. -Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.

and comes back, with no mention of the changes, as this:

Quote:

-GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold in exchange for writing. -Roleplay Gives: Writing, after removal of warriors. -Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team. - Both Basher & Basher Jr. must be removed. - Removal consists of moving to a point north of Saragossa. Saragossa is located on the southern edge of the jungle.

It takes 10 turns to move to N of Saragossa

Even though I was not around at the time; I see no problem wit this Treaty/Deal. If RP didn't want you snooping around their terr, that's their business. If you didn't want to accept the terms as they were presented, then you should have declined or offered to compromise/renegotiate. Moaning about it now does little good; perhaps you should have moaned when the deal was presented?

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I'm mentally damaged (like Ghengis implies), but because I can think of a shitload of more enjoyable things I can spend my scarce spare time with, than to waste it with a bunch of immature ranters, who don't know how adult people communicate.

I didn't say you were MENTALLY damaged, I said emotionally damaged.............

[Hot_Enamel]

BigFree.. you were obviously not around.

There was moaning / groaning/ counter-offers / threats / demands / insults thrown back and forth like crazy.

We needed Writing & RP knew it.
Many RP's claim/brag that they were negotiating from a position of strength and GoW just had to suck lemons.

I believe that negotiations should attempt to make each party feel like they had a win-win. Especially when there is an expectation that future deals will be done.

GoW went looking for more stable partners. ND was experiencing the same problems, and over time, our partnership gradually become an aliance against RP.

Note however .. the above example is only one reason for our war. It was probably the first reason, and why we approached ND in the first place, but there have been many other reasons why we are attacking RP.

Regs