Occupation death toll of U.S. troops equal to that of war - Page 4

GePap · August 27, 2003, 10:36

We all know what a huge target for Islamic terrorists wisconsin is.....

Sava · August 27, 2003, 10:36

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Kadaffy learned his lesson.

yeah... don't mess with America too much, and we'll let you be an oppressive, murderous dictator in your own country.

I think the Saudi's let him in on the secret on how to de a murderous dictator and not be hated by American leadership.

Kuciwalker · August 27, 2003, 10:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
But you are missing the point. Have you even bothered to ask why OBL and company hate America? Because of our military presence in Saudi Arabia. Americans generally don't get it. Militant muslims don't want us in their "holy land". The longer we are there, the more they will try to kill us.

They also hate us because of Israel, and because we're infidels. Unless you want to give Israel back to them and become a Muslim.

GePap · August 27, 2003, 10:38

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker
They also hate us because of Israel, and because we're infidels. Unless you want to give Israel back to them and become a Muslim.

They don;t care to make American convert: after all, we will go to hell anyway, no?

Sava · August 27, 2003, 10:38

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker

They also hate us because of Israel, and because we're infidels. Unless you want to give Israel back to them and become a Muslim.

We've been supporting Israel since it's creation... but yet... terrorism on the scale of 9-11 is a recent thing. Sure, they hate Israel, but that isn't enough of a reason for them to have a massive terrorist operation against America. American presence in the "holy land" is the primary fuel for militant Islamic recruitment.

Oerdin · August 27, 2003, 10:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
One big cause of deaths is accidents cleaning weapons and misfires.

I can understand misfires but how do you die while cleaning your rifle? Do you stab yourself in the eye with the cleaning rod?

Sava · August 27, 2003, 10:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin

I can understand misfires but how do you die while cleaning your rifle? Do you stab yourself in the eye with the cleaning rod?

Never rule anything out when dealing with ignorant third world types.

Oerdin · August 27, 2003, 10:43

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
They don;t care to make American convert: after all, we will go to hell anyway, no?

That's funny. OBL demands we convert to Islam in just about everyone of his tapes.

Sava · August 27, 2003, 10:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin

That's funny. OBL demands we convert to Islam in just about everyone of his tapes.

yeah, but how large would his recruitment pool be if there weren't American planes dropping bombs everywhere?

MikeH · August 27, 2003, 10:50

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Libya seems to be all touchy-feely hands offy, lately. The Saudis are two-faced bastards, of course, but it's rather hard to set up training camps there without us knowing about it.

Iran might work, but why would the Iranians pursue a high-risk, no return (to them) strategy like that? They're not nicer fundies, they're smarter fundies, and if they think the US occupation is going to be significantly destabilized, their best strategy is to increase their influence with the Shiite majority, and wait for the situation to fall in their laps. Why should the Iranians run any risk of getting caught with their hands in the cookie jar?

The countries are mostly desert, why would the governments have to be involved?

Defiant · August 27, 2003, 10:50

"But you are missing the point. Have you even bothered to ask why OBL and company hate America? Because of our military presence in Saudi Arabia. Americans generally don't get it. Militant muslims don't want us in their "holy land". The longer we are there, the more they will try to kill us. I'm not saying we shouldn't spend money on protecting ourselves... but the war in Iraq is a terribly ineffective use of money, resources, and manpower. Still, according to what I hear in the media, less than 10% of cargo in America is inspected. With 90% of cargo going unchecked, it's just a matter of time before a nuke gets sneaked in. But yet, our geniuses in Washington don't want to inspect more cargo because of business opposition to it. Instead, they'd rather go stomping around in someone else's holy land the spend the money to protect Americans at home."

I am not missing the point, Sava. Terrorism goes before '91 when we were in Saudi, BTW, to defend MECCA against Saddam who surely would have gone there next. A bit ironic don't you think, OBL holds us responsible for something we died for to protect, while he is occupying another nation. Almost laughable. The point is, we have always been the infidels and that is because of ignorance in the ME. There are no Democratic countries in the ME, except for Israel, the leaders control the media and money and blame the infidels for their problems. We can't have that, if we were even to come home with all troops we are still a target. We need to bring the ME out of the middle ages and give them democracy so they(the people) of the ME become better off, so will not want to lose what they have gained, by attacking us. Give them something to live and aspire for.
If a nuke goes off in a city, Sava, I believe you will see an anexation of the ME and nobody will stand in our way, I believe we will colonize the ME and in the process just about kill everything in our path and start over. What choices do we have left. Israel is going to end up doing that to Palestine, I don't see any other recourses, that is why I am on Bush's side now, to stop it before it goes futher.

MrFun · August 27, 2003, 10:52

This thread has been Savaized to death, hasn't it?

SlowwHand · August 27, 2003, 10:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
yeah... don't mess with America too much, and we'll let you be an oppressive, murderous dictator in your own country.

I think the Saudi's let him in on the secret on how to de a murderous dictator and not be hated by American leadership.

I was thinking more about getting a bomb in his front door, thus ending his quest for his own Butcher status.
Keep talking though. Your ignorance is entertaining.

DanS · August 27, 2003, 10:55

Quote:

Because no one cares about California.

But they have oil there!

Sava · August 27, 2003, 10:56

Quote:

I am not missing the point, Sava. Terrorism goes before '91 when we were in Saudi, BTW, to defend MECCA against Saddam who surely would have gone there next. A bit ironic don't you think, OBL holds us responsible for something we died for to protect, while he is occupying another nation. Almost laughable. The point is, we have always been the infidels and that is because of ignorance in the ME. There are no Democratic countries in the ME, except for Israel, the leaders control the media and money and blame the infidels for their problems. We can't have that, if we were even to come home with all troops we are still a target. We need to bring the ME out of the middle ages and give them democracy so they(the people) of the ME become better off, so will not want to lose what they have gained, by attacking us. Give them something to live and aspire for.

but wait, Bush says Al Qaeda and Saddam are friends... and another thing you don't realize... their culture and our culture are incompatible... either we go in an conquer them, destroy their culture and impose ours... or we try to co-exist with them. What we are doing now is a compromise of the two, and it won't work. It will only increase their hatred of us, and more Americans will die in the process. Frankly, I'd be more in support of Bush if he wanted to march armies across the MidEast and conquer them rather than pussyfoot around trying to give Halliburton some profits.

Quote:

If a nuke goes off in a city, Sava, I believe you will see an anexation of the ME and nobody will stand in our way, I believe we will colonize the ME and in the process just about kill everything in our path and start over. What choices do we have left. Israel is going to end up doing that to Palestine, I don't see any other recourses, that is why I am on Bush's side now, to stop it before it goes futher.

And I don't support Bush because he's ignorant of history, ignorant of the MidEast, ignorant of the causes of terrorism, and pushes a foreign policy that is more about profits for his corporate friends than the security of the American people.

MrFun · August 27, 2003, 10:57

GASP -- no one cares about the state that has the industrial-tech area known as Silicon Valley!?

Defiant · August 27, 2003, 10:57

You laugh GePap, guess where their first choice to plant that bomb would be, hope you have your lead underwear on.

GePap · August 27, 2003, 10:57

Quote:

That's funny. OBL demands we convert to Islam in just about everyone of his tapes.

(I was thinking of rmoe to say, but really this is all I think this requires).

Quote:

Terrorism goes before '91 when we were in Saudi, BTW, to defend MECCA against Saddam who surely would have gone there next.

We didn;t go in to defend Mecca (which sits close to the Red Sea): we went in to defend that arae aroudn the Gulf on which sits the majority of SA's (and the world's) oil supply. And yes, there was terrorism before '91: but we are not fighting all terrorism, only international islamist terrorism (no one was advocating invading Northern ireland to end terrorism there in the mid-80's, IIRC), speically those groups that aim to attack the US, groups that did NOT exist prior to '91.

Quote:

If a nuke goes off in a city, Sava, I believe you will see an anexation of the ME and nobody will stand in our way, I believe we will colonize the ME and in the process just about kill everything in our path and start over.

Do you HONESTLY believe something so far-fetched and ridiculous?

MikeH · August 27, 2003, 10:57

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS

But they have oil there!

And weapons of mass destruction. ATTACK!

GePap · August 27, 2003, 10:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Defiant
You laugh GePap, guess where their first choice to plant that bomb would be, hope you have your lead underwear on.

The fact that I do happen to live in target number one and I am not running around screaming like a hedless chicken about the end of the world is why I laugh.

Defiant · August 27, 2003, 11:01

"but wait, Bush says Al Qaeda and Saddam are friends... and another thing you don't realize... their culture and our culture are incompatible... either we go in an conquer them, destroy their culture and impose ours... or we try to co-exist with them. What we are doing now is a compromise of the two, and it won't work. It will only increase their hatred of us, and more Americans will die in the process. Frankly, I'd be more in support of Bush if he wanted to march armies across the MidEast and conquer them rather than pussyfoot around trying to give Halliburton some profits."

Creating a Democracy is trying to change their culture and freedom has a way of becoming very popular.
It boils down to FREEDOM vs. THEIR CULTURE. I have to believe freedom will win otherwise the second part of your paragrahp will come true, it's a fight against time.
At one time Japan's culture was very different from ours and now they are competing against us financially. We can change the ME, if time premits, but it comes down to, can we turn them before GePap is running around with his ass on fire.

Sava · August 27, 2003, 11:01

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap

The fact that I do happen to live in target number one and I am not running around screaming like a hedless chicken about the end of the world is why I laugh.

just on a side note... I've noticed that most pro-war people and people who have taken the terror attacks more personally are people from rural areas which have no chance in hell of getting attacked by terrorists.

and likewise... IIRC, most New Yorkers are liberal and were against the war in Iraq. I guess they think there should be proof of a Saddam connection to 9-11 before stirring up a hornet's nest in Iraq.

Defiant · August 27, 2003, 11:05

"Do you HONESTLY believe something so far-fetched and ridiculous?"

YES because it is a very real possibility.

In '91, Saddam's troops were on the border of Saudi, what do you think he was going to do, shake hands, he is the #1 muslim killer in the ME, do really think he gives a rat's ass about mecca, he would have taken the oil and turn mecca into one of his palaces. C'mon!

Sava · August 27, 2003, 11:05

Quote:

Creating a Democracy is trying to change their culture and freedom has a way of becoming very popular.
It boils down to FREEDOM vs. THEIR CULTURE. I have to believe freedom will win otherwise the second part of your paragrahp will come true, it's a fight against time.
At one time Japan's culture was very different from ours and now they are competing against us financially. We can change the ME, if time premits, but it comes down to, can we turn them before GePap is running around with his ass on fire.

Do you realize what we are trying to do? We are trying to take a nation state (created by the British) that is comprised of distinctly different ethnic and extremely secular peoples that don't like each other... and try and get them to believe in our way of life (freedom, democracy) when for thousands of years, their culture has been about the opposite of this... and in addition... the only way they have not slaughtered each other in civil wars (like in the Balkans) is by having a murderous and oppressive dictator with chemical weapons ruling with an iron fist...

frankly... I wouldn't bet on the US succeeding...

Defiant · August 27, 2003, 11:07

"just on a side note... I've noticed that most pro-war people and people who have taken the terror attacks more personally are people from rural areas which have no chance in hell of getting attacked by terrorists. "

You really need to talk with Ruffhaus who lives in DC, he literally wanted to light them up in the ME, the plane that hit the pentagon, went right past his wife's office. BTW if visit Chicago alot and lived there, this has nothing to do with rural vs urban.

MichaeltheGreat · August 27, 2003, 11:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin

I can understand misfires but how do you die while cleaning your rifle? Do you stab yourself in the eye with the cleaning rod?

Uhh, we have more than rifles.

Sava · August 27, 2003, 11:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Defiant
"Do you HONESTLY believe something so far-fetched and ridiculous?"

YES because it is a very real possibility.

In '91, Saddam's troops were on the border of Saudi, what do you think he was going to do, shake hands, he is the #1 muslim killer in the ME, do really think he gives a rat's ass about mecca, he would have taken the oil and turn mecca into one of his palaces. C'mon!

You do realize most of the Muslim world KNOWS that the US was the one who supplied him with weapons and money for a decade, right? Without US support in the 80's (weapons, and components for WMD programs) Saddam most likely would have been toast. Who do you think the Muslim world blames for Saddam's rise to power?

MrFun · August 27, 2003, 11:08

I think someone should poke Sava with a cleaning rod . . . . .

Defiant · August 27, 2003, 11:09

"Do you realize what we are trying to do? We are trying to take a nation state (created by the British) that is comprised of distinctly different ethnic and extremely secular peoples that don't like each other... and try and get them to believe in our way of life (freedom, democracy) when for thousands of years, their culture has been about the opposite of this... and in addition... the only way they have not slaughtered each other in civil wars (like in the Balkans) is by having a murderous and oppressive dictator with chemical weapons ruling with an iron fist...

frankly... I wouldn't bet on the US succeeding"

There is no country more diverse than this country, we have people from all over here, that includes about 3 million muslims, if we can make it work, it can work there. Again it's about freedom, you are right, they have been fighting for 1000's of years, we have to put a stop to it, because it is now in our backdoor.

GePap · August 27, 2003, 11:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Defiant
"Do you HONESTLY believe something so far-fetched and ridiculous?"

YES because it is a very real possibility.

In '91, Saddam's troops were on the border of Saudi, what do you think he was going to do, shake hands, he is the #1 muslim killer in the ME, do really think he gives a rat's ass about mecca, he would have taken the oil and turn mecca into one of his palaces. C'mon!

No, when I asked if you believed something so ridiculous, the question was about your little "prediction" about what would happen if terrorist used nuclear weapons.

As for Saddam an '91: I am skeptical if he would have made a grab for SA. Kuwait was easy, but SA would not be for a whole host of reasons. Even if he had invaded SA, he would not have moved to annex the whole area, anymore than he meant to Annex all of Iran when he invaded it. We did not go in to protect Mecca or Medina, but the small area of SA near the gulf with the oil.

And the porblem was not the war itself, but the aftermath of the war, and our support for the current Saudi Regime. After all, it was the sauds who invited the US in: People like Osama know that.