Emperor Games: how to improve your skills

Mountain Sage · August 27, 2003, 05:01

Hi everybody,

The purpose of this thread is to encourage players to move from Monarch to Emperor by proposing some 'easy' Emperor level games (already played) and to give advice on tactics and strategies for each particular game.

Experienced Emperor players are of course welcome, by providing interesting games and useful comments.

The first game: PTW, Emperor, Greece, standard map, Pangea 70% water, wet, temperate, Barbarians sedentary (a really easy one!).
Please post some screenshots by BC 2500, 1500, 130 and AD 10, 1100, 1350, 1500, 1700, 1800 and the final round as to compare them.

Mountain Sage · August 27, 2003, 05:01

Here is the save:

Mountain Sage · August 27, 2003, 05:02

and the starting location:

vmxa1 · August 27, 2003, 12:32

This looks familar, did you have thread on it some where?

Mountain Sage · August 28, 2003, 03:32

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
This looks familar, did you have thread on it some where?

Yes,
I posted it on my 'PUP' thread, then somebody thought it would be better to create a new thread, which I did.
But it's the first time this game is 'offered' on Apolyton

Mountain Sage · August 30, 2003, 15:29

Another game: France, standard map.

The geography is very interesting, and you start with a 'nice' neighbour. Good luck!

Mountain Sage · August 30, 2003, 15:32

And the starting location:

ToeTruck · August 30, 2003, 21:33

Hi Sage,

These looke like fun, especially having lots of resources. I've played a lot of Greece so I'll probably give the French a try. Position looks good.

- TT

ChrisiusMaximus · August 31, 2003, 05:13

Thanks for posting these saves Im looking forward to trying them out, is the second one PTW also ?.

vmxa1 · August 31, 2003, 13:40

MS, just want to yank your chain a bit.

From the thread title I would expect to see some reports and tutorials to explain how to accomplish winning on Emp.
If you are just providing some nice starting location, then the title should be something like "maps to start playing emperor".
Either way it is still a good idea. Just teasing you about it.

ToeTruck · August 31, 2003, 15:10

Mountain Sage,

Would you mind re-posting the French position? When I downloaded it, I got the Greece start. Did anyone else get the same thing or am I whacked?

- TT

David Murray · August 31, 2003, 16:41

How do you stop the AI getting so far ahead technologically that you can't compete no matter what, when you have no gold left and your troops are so out of date as to be useless? Like in the BCs when the AI is equiping itself with pikemen and you've only just build a decent sized sword/horse army?

ChrisiusMaximus · August 31, 2003, 20:31

I found the same problem with the French save it is indeed the same as the Greeks.

Well Ive been playing the Greek game and its been interesting to say the least. My biggest problem was not being able to expand at first then when they, the Chinese and Arabians who share the continent ran out of room they both declared on me almost simultaneously, although not in an alliance.

It was a tough call and I nearly lost a city, so I sued for peace with the Arabs for some gold per turn and a hefty lump sum, turned off the science and pumped out as many Archers as I could. Managed to push the Chinese back and secure Iron when Mao sued for peace which I thought was strange at the time as he was bigger and stronger than me. To top it off he gave me 2 techs in the process

With a lull in the fighting I pumped out Swordsmen and built some libraries, I now had five cities. Then Mao decides to kick off again so this time I open an embassy with the Arabs and sign them up for an alliance. Very next turn chinese build GL in Beiging, got to take that city for sure. It takes quite a few turns of defensive tactics before the chinese flow of troops starts to slow down and I took lots of casualties in the process. Not to worry though the Arabs were keeping them busy while I rebuilt my forces.

By the time I was satisfied that I had enough of a stack the arabs had made peace so I took one city and got some tech and gold for peace. After about ten turns the Arabs declared war on the Chinese so I waited a couple of turns to give the chinese time to send their boys to the front, then declared myself and stormed through their lands taking three cities including Beiging GL

.

Mind you I lost that prize next turn to a single Archer but my swordsmen took it back off him next turn. Got loads of tech out of that and as it stands now Im at peace at 580 AD.

I think I need to finish the Chinese fairly soon and aim to get the Arabs capitol to capture the Great Lighthouse, I have spotted another civ with a suicide galley but unfortunately I cant make contact yet.

I would be interested to know what tips people might offer on my posistion and would like to know how you think Im doing.

Its been tough but enjoyable.

ChrisiusMaximus · August 31, 2003, 20:35

Heres a save of where Im up to.

vmxa1 · August 31, 2003, 22:35

It is always good to get to the Chinese before they get Riders. You won't have a three move unit for a long time, so they would be a handful to keep bottled up.

vmxa1 · August 31, 2003, 22:41

Quote:

Originally posted by David Murray
How do you stop the AI getting so far ahead technologically that you can't compete no matter what, when you have no gold left and your troops are so out of date as to be useless? Like in the BCs when the AI is equiping itself with pikemen and you've only just build a decent sized sword/horse army?

That all depends. I like to take a chunk out of my nearest very early. This give me some land and maybe a tech or two. Then soon after that battle is settled down, I like to hit them again to ot them out of the game.
This is what I am doing in MZO bootcamp III now. It is English at emperor with Japan as my nearest. I view them like China, they have that strong UU with an extra movement, so I do not want them around by that point.
I got some techs and money was never a problem as I know how to manage my workers and citizens. I used tight spacing and had a few cities making archer forever. I have no iron, so I needed to get my licks in very soon.

ToeTruck · August 31, 2003, 23:10

I'm definitely with vmxa1 regarding Japan and China. If you are hemmed in by either one, you have to be content with builder strategy or you have to blast your way out early. There's no way you want to be on the receiving side of a Rider or Samurai assault.

Regarding David Murray's initial question, there are three basic ways to keep up tech-wise when playing Emperor or Deity:

1) Build Great Library. A little risky but the backbone of the builder approach at the higher levels.

2) Beat the techs out of your opponents. Attack your nearest neighbor and extort techs when arranging for a peace treaty.

3) Trade like crazy. You can often keep up in tech while fighting only a small scale war even without the Great Library.

Also, since I couldn't get the French game to go, I've started playing the Greeks. I post a DAR tomorrow sometime.

Talk to you all later.

- TT

Konquest02 · August 31, 2003, 23:11

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

This is what I am doing in MZO bootcamp III now. It is English at emperor with Japan as my nearest. I view them like China, they have that strong UU with an extra movement, so I do not want them around by that point.

Err... Little correction here. It's the Celts which are very close by. However, your line of thought still works well...

Btw, try to get your final save in this week, so that I can put up awards and the next game (as Scandinavia) next weekend...

--Kon--

vmxa1 · August 31, 2003, 23:48

You are right, I got confused. I had not played today and already forgot, sad huh. I finished my other game project so I can get back to it now. I did not want to see their UU with me and no iron so far.

fanes7 · September 1, 2003, 00:26

I download your France game,

I prefer the industralization and military, next is religion and expand,

Thanks very much!

Mountain Sage · September 1, 2003, 02:37

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
Thanks for posting these saves Im looking forward to trying them out, is the second one PTW also ?.

Yep, I forgot to mention it. Sorry.

Mountain Sage · September 1, 2003, 08:13

double post, edited.

Mountain Sage · September 1, 2003, 08:14

Here is the French save. Sorry for the mix-up.

vmxa1: there are enought theoretical threads about 'how to win on...'. But at the end, you only improve by playing, not reading

Oh, post some screenshots. Let's compare.

ToeTruck · September 1, 2003, 13:49

I ended up playing Greece because the French save was not available when I started.

Here's a summary:
- 1025BC
- Six cities
- Three Luxuries
- One Granary and one Barracks
- Seven workers and fourteen military units
- Researched or traded for Pottery, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Iron Working, and Writing. Literature in 19 turns.

I have intentionally delayed attacking China because I hate to waste my Golden Age too early. Now, I believe I am in a position to start the campaign. Plus, Greece is such a good builder civ that there's no reason to war unecessarily.

With this map, however, I definitely need some elbow room. I'm doing well with Luxuries, but more grasslands and a source of fresh water is needed to really take off.

With two luxuries connected and one more in a turn or two, I should have two big cities away from the line kicking out units fairly quickly. And my Golden Age will come almost immediately.

My strategy will be to move straight on Beijing with the main force and pick off Canton with a follow-up force. BTW: Hoplites are great at pillaging.

Anyhow, here's my map.

- TT

vmxa1 · September 1, 2003, 14:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage

vmxa1: there are enought theoretical threads about 'how to win on...'. But at the end, you only improve by playing, not reading

I agree, I don't think players that are not beating Emp will do it with just a few DAR's either. This is because they do not tell the player how to get from A to B. They just say here I am at B. That's nice and it is of some value. The player at least now knows what they should look like at B. They just do not understand how to get to B If they did, they would be beating the game already.
I think some of the best efforts to move up levels was done by the players that came here posted their games at their current level and got feedback as they played the game out. Those players all moved up just fine.

I think that detailed DAR or AAR's could work as well. But they are a lot of work and some people learn better by doing.
Like I said it is all good and I am in no way offerring any criticism. Just a point of view.

ToeTruck · September 1, 2003, 15:53

Vmxa1 is entirely correct here.

I know that my first DAR was a "point B" snapsot. Here's what I did to get from point A (the start) to point B (the screenshot):

1) Researched Pottery right off.
2) Used Barracks as lead item for Granary.
3) Ignored Barbs entirely and didn't build any Warriors until I had two cities.
4) Avoided contact because it would just encourage my neighbors to REX in my direction.
5) Claimed as many Luxury sites as possible.
6) Filled in the city gaps using 3/4 city spacing.
7) Built a Barracks in my city to jump start my military.
8) Built Workers with my outpost cities.

My research order in Greece warmonger games is:

Pottery-Warrior Code-Writing-Literature

Normally I'm a builder (of the extreme kind). When I do war with the Greeks, I use my Hoplites to deny-deny-deny. "Pillage with Impunity" is my motto.

I'll post a "point-B to point-C" DAR shortly. This game is a real hoot!

- TT

P.S. Vmxa1 is also correct when he says the best learning occurs when the "learner" posts screenshots or saves and other people comment. If someone posts some saves/shots, I promise I'll look at them.

ToeTruck · September 1, 2003, 22:42

Here's a follow-up after a few turns of warmaking.

1) 570BC.
2) Up to seven cities.
3) Added The Wheel, Masonry, and Literature.
4) Got World Map from Arabia.
5) Almost through Golden Age.
6) Have Military Alliance with Arabia against China.
7) Control the island's two sources of Iron.

Militarily, I destroyed Canton and Xinjian and have Beijing on the ropes. With Swordsmen on the way and me controlling all the Iron, China shouldn't last long. Arabia should fall shortly afterwards.

Long-term, this map is excellent for a builder style which I'm inclined to play when playing Greece. Hopefully (but there's no guarantee), I can eliminate both China and Arabia before contact is made with the other continents.

One comment about my military style: Some people make a couple of "killer stacks" and move them around the board from city to city. I tend to spread my units out a bit more so I can starve a city by depraving it of food squares while also allowing me to pillage improvements. The Hoplite is superb for this approach. Also, I always raze a city unless it is the civ's last city or it contains a Wonder.

Research-wise, I slowed down a bit to raise cash for an Arabian Embassy. Also, the Military Alliance cost me 8 gpt which was a bit steep as they really aren't doing anything. Even at 50%, though, I'm making decent progress towards Mathematics primarily because of my two size 6 cities and three Luxuries.

Here's a snapshot of the map concentrating on the areas around Beijing.

- TT

ToeTruck · September 3, 2003, 00:38

I’ve only played 13 turns since the last DAR and while they have been very exciting turns, I’m struck by how long they took me to play. My key piece of advice to anyone taking the leap from Monarch to Emperor (or Deity for that matter) is: “Take your time. Think about everything you’re about to do. Every turn.”

Some people think taking your time is the same as micro-management; that’s so way wrong it’s silly. Anyhow, here’s my DAR.

Summary:
- 310BC.
- Nine cities and one colony.
- Researched, traded for, or extorted Mysticism, Philosophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Horseback Riding, and Mathematics. Currency in 12.

Here’s the mini-map:

Geographically speaking, this is a builder’s paradise. The island will support 15 – 20 cities with the classic “dumbbell” placement of Capital and Forbidden Palace. Although you can’t see it in this screenshot, the Northern Jungle will probably provide Coal to complement the southern Iron. Whoever conquers this island (that’ll be me) will have at the very least three Luxuries, Coal, and Iron. What else does a builder need?

But, the package gets even sweeter. Here’s the Wonder Advisor (F7):

I can’t say “Whoa Baby” loud enough.

Mecca has built the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus and is currently building the Great Library. That’s a Grade-A SSC in the making. Plus, conquering Beijing gave me the Pyramids. Hmm. Not much more I could ask for.

There is a subtle thing to notice here, however: Even with the Lighthouse, the Expansionist Arabians have not expanded their map more than three squares off the island. That means that as long as I wipe out both the Chinese and the Arabians before the discovery of Astronomy, my misdeeds will go unnoticed. Meanwhile, I can treat my neighbors like dirt and get away with it.

Okay, before I get to the main map, there are a couple of things worth noting:

1) While I was pillaging the Chinese countryside, Mao sued for peace. I declined because you should never take any AI’s offer. Period. Well, maybe not Period, but just about. In any case, I waited until I had taken Beijing then I asked for (and received) the following in exchange for a Peace Treaty: Mystisicm, Philosophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Horseback Riding, 28 gold, and Nanking!

2) The turn after I declined the Chinese initial offer for Peace, Mao sent a 9/9 army at me. It immediately attacked a fortified Hoplite and I destroyed it with a single Archer the following turn. Armies can be very powerful, but the AI does not leverage them very well. Thank goodness.

Okay, so here's the map of where the action is:

A couple of things are worth pointing out in this picture:

1) My forward cities are building Libraries. They can't build much else of value so they might as well hang for a few turns then pop-rush a Library in preparation of the building effort that will follow.

2) My core cities (those with the lowest corruption) are fully mined. Athens produces 10 shields per turn at Size 6. That's a Hoplite every other turn or a Swordsmen every three turns.

3) When I wage war, I use Workers to connect forward luxuries and develop forward cities first, then develop my core cites fully, followed by a Golden Road into the enemy's heart.

4) When I play Greece, I emphasize building new units over upgrading Warriors. Greecian Warriors are happiness agents first and upgrade candidates second.

Next steps:

- Eliminate China
- Bring Water to my "second tier" cities
- Prepare for Arabia

Note: I reneged on my Peace Treaty with China a few turns ago so both China and Arabia are Furious with me right now. Diplomacy is out. I plan to conquer the island, build a Forbidden Palance, and play builder. That's what I'm good at afterall.

- TT

vmxa1 · September 3, 2003, 01:58

As usual a fine report. I totally agree that it is rare to accept the first offer at Emp or Deity. This is because they will be mad at me anyway and I may as well get more later. At monarch, I may not care as much and may get lazy.

Mountain Sage · September 3, 2003, 03:18

I'm really glad people like this thread. Let's hope some 'Emperor newbee' will join us.

About my game:
Yes, this island looks like a builder's paradise. Unfortunately, we Greek fell a bit tight, and knowing Mao from previous incarnations, should beware.

Therfore, our overall strategy is the following:
1. Get the max. of cities in our tight space (7 or 8).
2. Hook the iron on the eastern peninsula.
3. Build temples, barracks and lots of warriors.
4. Upgrade them to swordmen.
5. Take out the Chinese.
6. Build units/improvements and await a good opportunity to take out the Arabs (they also have some nice Wonders).
7. Play then strictly a builder's game and win the space race.

In 1075 BC we had 6 cities, Bronze Working, Masonry, Alphabet, Writing, Pottery, Warrior Code, Cerimonial Burial.
4 workers, 12 warriors, 4 archers.