Emperor Games: how to improve your skills

[Mountain Sage]

In 590 BC the situation was the following:
Everything was geared to the soon-to-launch invasion.
7 cities and 1 colony (not hooked yet!)
Reseraching Mathematics (24 turnsto go at 10%).
32 warriors and 4 archers, 3 workers.
The library in Thermopylae is a 'mistake'. It was corrected.

Tips for newbees:
1. I would not launch an invasion on Emperor with less than 30 units, especially of you plan to take out another civ.
2. Bejing just finished the GLibrary the turn before. This is why I waited that long before launching an invasion. There is no point capturing a city 3 turns away from a Wonder. How did I know it? Go to the diplomatic screen and investigate the city (it cost me 70 gold, well spent).
3. Do not take out the Chinese last city. Sue for peace and grab all the techs and gold (if left). Their last city will fall with the first of the Arab's.
4. Look at the tight spacing of the Greek's cities and compare with the other civs' spacing. This is done on purpose (C-T-T-C). You can pack 2 more cities with it, meaning more gold, military units etc. Since the capitol is so far south, it will probably be moved, so you don't care if this bunch of cities will not grow over 12.

Time to update the warriors to swordmen and go...

[ToeTruck]

Good thread Mountain Sage and thanks for setting this up.

This type of comparison is very helpful (for me at least). Our styles are similar, but also noticeably different.

For example: I started the Chinese war with far fewer than 30 units. My first stack was about six (3 Hoplites and 3 Archers). That's way to few to conquer anyone, but it was plenty to totally hamstring Beijing and pillage Mao's trade network. When my real force got going, Mao had no roads to leverage and his production was far less than it would have been if I had waited.

Another example: You are following the 3-spacing strategy more diligently than I did. I understand the value of 3-spacing, but I like to jump ahead and ensure my "2nd tier" cities are in place. In this case, I wanted to grab the Incense as quickly as possible and develop my front line cities before the area was littered with Chinese. Until I read your post, I had forgotten that I even had a city site available back from the line. I'd be interested in the founding order of your cities.

Also, I like to make peace partway through my assault and take a breather. In this game, China still had three cities when I sued for peace. I got a bunch of techs and a city(!) as a part of the Treaty. This allowed me to regroup my forces in Beijing and prepare for both the elimination of the Chinese and the subsequent attack on Arabia. Plus getting the techs earlier sometimes allows you to start researching one level deeper in the tree than you could if you waited.

The main difference between the way were playing this game, however, is in the way we are using Warriors. You built a ton of them with the intention of upgrading to Swordsmen. I think I only built 5 or 6 Warriors before switching to Archers and Hoplites.

Very interesting...

Good luck with the war.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Well, I've eliminated the Chinese and am preparing to conquer the Arabs.

First, a sad note. The Iroquois have beaten the Arabs to the Great Library. As a builder at heart, I covet the GL so it's a bit of a disappointment.

Here's a summary of the current position:
- 13 cities.
- 1 Settler, 7 Workers, 3 Warriors, 6 Archers, 11 Swords, and 16 Hoplites.
- Currency in 4. Also need Construction and Polytheism.

And, here is the current minimap:


Not much to notice except that the Arabs have a mere five cities for me to tackle. Should be a piece of cake.

And here's a zoom map:


A couple of things worth noticing here:

- I've only razed two Chinese cities! That is very rare; most people (including me) raze every city they conquer. In this case, razing just didn't make sense; I had wounded units that needed to heal anyhow and China's demise was so close I didn't have to worry about resistance. Plus, their city spacing wasn't that bad. Yeah, Shanghai could move to the coast, but big deal.

- I've started building the Forbidden Palance in Corinth. I usually build the FP near the capital and then jump (or re-build) the Palace where I really want it.

That's it for now. I haven't done anything that unusual, but if anyone has a question about what I'm thinking, I'd be glad to answer.

Later.

- TT

[Mountain Sage]

ToeTruck,
This is exactly why I posted this thread: to give people the possibility to compare different strategies and tactics and you are most helpful.

I am posting my comments after yours just because I already finished both games (won both by a space race) and I didn't want to put any spoilers.

My situation in 310BC:
15 warriors (to be upgraded against the Arabs) , 12 archers, 11 swordmen.
176 gold, mathematics in 6 turns (60%).
3 Chinese towns down, I will push on and leave only Tsingtao.
I have lots of units, I know, but I want to take the Arabs out asap as well. Then my units will play garrison duty in my cities (2 per city under Despotism). After Republic, we'll see.
I will give you my building order tomorrow.
I didn't raze any cities here since, if I rememeber correctly, I planned to move my capitol (and the FP) to a more central place. I will check this.
Oh, you will see that I disconnected the Chinese iron (and lost my 2 units).

[Arrian]

ToeTruck,

I'm not sure that most people raze every city they capture. I sure don't, not in the ancient age, anyway!

Unless the city is terribly placed or has a high chance of flipping, I will keep it. Often, I'll use poprushing to kill off the "enemy" population and get myself a unit or a temple (or barracks, or something...). Otherwise, I'll starve it, or even rush workers until it's size 1.

Why would you spend the 30 shields + 2 pop points necessary to replace every single city you take??

Hell, even in my current Emp level game, in the industrial era, I've kept 4 cities out of the 9 I've taken (2 had functioning wonders, the others had courthouse + policestation + factory intact).

-Arrian

[ToeTruck]

Hi Arrian,

I would be very interested whether most people raze or not. I based my comments some of the threads I've read particularly those on city-spacing, culture flipping, and resistance. Perhaps I mis-interpreted the general population's attitude towards razing. I suspect that most people are cut and dry one way or the other; they either always raze or never raze, or they have some rule like: "raze except the last one" or the like. I further suspect that the best players consider each case on its own merits.

For me, I tend to raze a lot, perhaps more than the norm, but perhaps less. If I'm trying to wipe a civ out completely, I usually don't have the luxury of garrisoning every city I conquer.

On the other hand, I definitely see the value of taking and keeping conquered cities. It's like a Settler from a goody-hut; you wouldn't turn one down, would you?

In this game, I was just struck that I only razed two of the seven Chinese cities I conquered.

Your comments are forcing me reconsider that entire aspect of the game. Thanks.

- TT

[Arrian]

TT,

My general rule is that I don't raze in the ancient era ('cept for horrible city location by the AI), mostly don't raze in the middle ages, but mostly raze after that unless I expect to be able to wipe out the opponent rather quickly.

Early in the game, the 30 shields & 2 pop points required to rebuild a city are huge, and I'd rather not use them up rebuilding AI cities. Plus, the AI doesn't have that much culture built up early on, or high population in most of its cities, such that a poprush or two will knock the city down to size 1, and all new growth will be of my nationality.

I almost never experience flips. I play mostly on Monarch, and I know that the AI builds up a lot more culture on Emp, so flips are more of a concern. I should also mention that, despite fighting a lot, I'm big on culture, and so I usually have a lot of it. On Monarch, this means I'm often double or more the nearest AI. On Emperor, this means I'm one of the leaders (in the current game I talked about before, I've just moved into #2, and am poised to wipe out #1, and I'm playing as China, not Babylon or some other culture monger civ).

I'm glad my post made you think, even if you eventually conclude that your way is better.

-Arrian

[Rhothaerill]

Well I haven't had a chance to play either of these games, but to both Toe Truck and Mountain Sage. You have the spirit of Apolyton University in this thread without actually being an AU course. I agree with you both that I like the DAR explanations of WHY you chose a specific course of action rather than just choosing that course of action (and in that vein I'll be posting AU209 DARs at Emperor level soon with that thought in mind).

As to the razing AI cities question, my tendency is usually like Arrian's. I don't raze cities until the late ages unless it's an unavoidable autoraze or the city just plain won't work well where it is. I look at early acquisition of AI cities as "free" settlers that allow my core cities to do other things than pump out settlers. Even in the later ages I won't always raze AI cities though, mainly if I expect to take the entire nation quickly.

[vmxa1]

I started to post last night about the razing, but it was too late to think clearly (ok, that could be said any time).
I am an infrequent razing player. In the early part I love to get a capture city as they are often not large and have little culture, hence I need not fear a flip. It is hard for the AI to get units over as they are mostly 1 movement types and the AI has few roads.
I raze if the city is just a poor addition or is not likely to be held. I will be more inclined to raze a city in the modern age. It is then that metros are too large to convert and units are fast moving, so they may be able to get troops to the door soon. I have to commit lots of troops to garrison and it may have rails to it.
I still like to keep cities as often as I can. I will sometimes go on a elimination run if I am doing a conquest only game. Now I am happy to raze those metros and slap my own settler in the spot or near it.

Note this is not a recommendation, just an FYI.

[Theseus]

I, also, have evolved quite a bit in this regard.

When I first started, I NEVER razed, both to gather the benefit of invested shields and sort of emotionally.

Then, for a while, I razed and pillaged EVERYTHING!!! (my personal response to Coracle's then rant)

Now? Pretty much like Arrian... early- to mid-game not an issue, later game maybe, depending especially on where my Palace is, all modified by desired CP. And very selective pillaging, as I want the territory improved (even if it is checker-board irrigated, I want the roads).

And 1-2 turn civ take-downs are my favorite... see my report on capturing England in AU 208 with Berserks... makes the whole issue moot.

[Gufnork]

I tend to very rarely raze cities. In the industrial age it's easy to garrison captured bases (just move your front line defense to the new base) and I'm usually high on culture (love religious civs).

[ToeTruck]

Well, I guess I was wrong about city razing. Is there anyone out there who razes as a rule?

DAR on the Greece game coming soon.

- TT

[Master Zen]

I only raze if the city doesn't fit in the grand scheme of things. With me being more RCP-minded during the last months, that makes me even more prone to doing it as I am more picky with my city placement.

Well, sadly I don't have much time to play civ these days but I'd just like to give some tips on emperor. It's the difficulty level I usually play this and have gotten comfortable enough that I generally avoid micromanaging after having like 5-6 cities.

First of all, the ancient era is crucial. The most vital one if you ask me. You will most likely fall way behind in techs here and in my experience don't get it back until the late medieval or early industrial.

- Begin at 100% research and try and get Warrior Code and Iron Working ASAP. You might also try to get Literature. After you have these, drop science to 0% (and start researching one of those tech which the AI usually delays like Math with a scientific worker). I would ideally suggest an Archer Rush. However, geography sometimes makes this improbable. With a militaristic civ you can even start a rush with your third city (and yes people, it's even possible to do it with only one if you're lucky neighbor is very close and doesn't have spearmen). I can't say how devastating an archer rush is, but just practice to see that I am not lying.

- Swordsman rush. After getting IW or Lit, drop science to 0% (start prebuilding the GL way before though) and begin planning for a mass warrior-swordsman upgrade. You should have hoarded about 10-15 warriors beforehand (the more the merrier). Once you're ready, unleash hell. Repeat with Med Infs/Knights and Cavs until conquering your continent which is very important if you ask me.

- Planning your GA. Even if you have a civ with an early UU, try saving your GA to a good time. My favorite time is the mid medieval with anything other than a scientific civ since it makes universites so much cheaper. If you have to go to war before, try not using your UU. Might make the war harder but a GA on despotism is a waste compared to what it could ahve been with republic or democracy.

- If you're not planning to warmonger early on, drop science to 0% and simply use your cash to buy techs. Techs are cheap in the ancient age and you are almost as better off buying them than researching them. If you can get the Great Library excellent. All your surplus $$ can be used for a massive upgrade.

- In the medieval era technologies branch alot. Try going for those techs that the AI usually avoids (you'll get the hang of it). Whore them as much as you can. By the time you get a lead you should be netting around $100-200 per turn by tech whoring alone. In Emperor this is actually much easier to do than Monarch (hence emperor game's ending much sooner) because the tech pace is faster and the AI usually has more money.

- FP switch. Once you have a solid continental base, think of setting up your FP. When you are in a republic for example, a FP suddenly nets you a huge amount of $$ and can turn the tables as your technological deficit now turns slowly into a lead.

Finally all I can say is practice. When I switched to emperor my first games were won only because I used meticulous micromanagement and flawless city placmeent. Over time, you can get much more sloppy and play with instinct and still win. Once you feel comfortable to rush through emperor games then it's time to move up again... (or not, I still find it impossible to rush through deity... )

[ToeTruck]

I eliminated the Arabs two turns ago, but waited to research Construction to post this DAR. I'll give a summary followed by the maps.

Summary:
- 300AD.
- 18 cities with 3-4 more on the way.
- 13 cities with Libraries.
- Forbidden Palace leader-rushed in Ephesus.
- 7 Workers
- 12 Swords
- 3 Archers
- 2 Warriors
- 10 or so captured Workers
- All Ancient techs except Monarchy and The Republic. Plus my Scientific freebie: Monotheism.

First off, this feels *way* late to be at this point. I should be in a Republic by now, should have all my cities founded, and should have a ton more Workers. Plus I really should have the Great Libray, damnit.

This game illustrates how much slower Archipelago/Continent maps are than Pangaea maps. They are easier in many ways, but definitely slower.

In any case, here's the minimap:


And, here's the zoom view:


Things worth discussing:

1) Every city is either building a Library or has one in place and is building a Marketplace. With three Luxuries and good Culture, Temples take a backseat to Marketplace.

2) My Workers are irrigating the southern plains. BTW - Here's a recap of my worker strategy:
- Mine and road frontline cities.
- Mine and road core cities near the capital.
- Connect luxuries.
- Irrigate plains.
- Fully develop core cities near (or at) the Capital and Forbidden Palace choosing one city to be my SSC (Super Science City).
- Road every tile being worked by a city.
- Clear Jungle and Forests.
- Mine Hills and Mountains.

3) Corinth is currently building a Marketplace. I will switch to Palace immediately. Having Ephesus with the FP and Corinth with the Palace is just about ideal.

4) I could have used my Great Leader to build the FP in Corinth and then jumped my Capital to Ephesus. Two things stopped me:
- Athens' position is not ideal, but it's not stinky either
- Mecca will be my SSC. By placing the FP near Mecca, I ensure it can develop with low corruption.

5) Once I entered the Middle Ages and got Monotheism as my freebie, I had to decide which tech to research next:
- Theology in 22 turns.
- Feudalism in 17 turns.
- Engineering in 19 turns.
- The Republic in 15 turns.

If I had built or capture the Great Library, this would have been easy, but alas the Iroquois built it first.

I want to beeline to Astronomy as quickly as I can, but I also *need* the extra revenue Republic provides. I'm researching The Republic.

6) I'm not yet building any Galleys. That's because I'm a moron and have overlooked that need. Must correct.

7) Once I switch to a Republic, I will disband *every* military unit I have. That will mean 30+ more gold every turn. Heh.

Overall, this is an okay position. I don't think I'll break any early launch records, but I should do pretty well.

I'll be gone this weekend, but will post my next DAR Sunday or Monday night.

This has been fun. Thanks for listening.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Thanks, MZ, for the comments. You are dead on especially regarding planning a Golden Age and Practice.

Planning the Golden Age is a tricky thing to do, but very beneficial. Most people new to the game consider the GA a bonus that just sort of shows up. Knowing when your GA will occur and engineering it's start is very valuable.

Regarding Practice, I couldn't have said it better. I don't post a lot (I'm only a Warlord afterall). That's because I'm constanly trying out new strategies.

Start soapbox.

Everyone should try taking a starting position and re-loading until they get it right. That takes a long time, but the things you learn along the way are very valuable. Also keep a log. Write down what you are doing, when you did it, and why.

End soapbox.

- TT

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by ToeTruck


Everyone should try taking a starting position and re-loading until they get it right. That takes a long time, but the things you learn along the way are very valuable. Also keep a log. Write down what you are doing, when you did it, and why.

- TT

I agree and this is what I did for Master Of Orion II. Check a log and reload to see what the best way todo this was and what the impact was of a given improvement.
It is a lot more work in Civ, but still useful. Otherwise how do you know if it is better mine first or road first and which is best in what cases?

[ToeTruck]

Dead on vmxa1.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Have researched The Republic and suffered my way through six turns of Anarchy. Ouch.

That's the price you pay though. Once you have a Republic government, disband all your units (even the Elite) and build away.

Here's the picture taken before disbandment:


And here's the picture taken just after disbandment:


My point here is that disbanding units is a great way to pump up high-corruption cities whilte also allowing for a higher research rate.

In this case, my time to Theology dropped from 11 turns to 5 turns. Yea!

- TT

[vmxa1]

Ok it is late so I am too tired to think. I see it is two turns late, but some of the builds are improved by far mo..... never mind. The fog clear, shields from the disbands, Duh.

[Mountain Sage]

As usual, I am just a step behind TT in posting, which is fine (no spoilers from me!).

My situation in 130 BC:

13 cities, Bejing to fall next turn.
15 warriors, 12 archers, 15 swordmen, 4 chariots. I realize now this was a bit of an overkill.
My city building: Roxane (capitol), then Erin, Thermopylae, Delphi, Corinth. Argos was added since I had a 'free space' in my T-C-C-T grid.
Pharsalos was build only after I saw some Chinese (and Arab!) settlers heading south.
For the future, I kept my capitol in Roxane and put my FP in Peking. If I had to do it again, I would have chosen Delphi (capitol) and Shanghai (FP).
Gold is not a problem. As TT, I will disband all my units once I get Republic and the continenet is mine.

As to the razing, I usually never raze, except if I want to pack cities tightly. But the costs then will be high (2 pops points per city).

My situation:

[Gufnork]

MS, how did you build your Palace and FP? That's a very interesting issue as I see it. ToeTruck got a leader to rush his FP, then built his palace manually in a base that was close enough to have very little waste. I rarely play commercial civs, so does Beijing have little enough waste for it to be a good choice?

TT, you knew that you wanted Mecca for your SSC. Wouldn't bringing a settler along and rushing the FP in what now is Troy in order to reduce corruption in Mecca (not to mention historically pleasing in a way)? Or do you value a slightly better placement overall over that?

[ToeTruck]

Gufnork, you're quite correct that I could have placed the FP closer to Mecca. I actually considered rushing it in Mecca itself. That would have made a lot of sense, but I decided that placing it in Ephesus was a better overall choice.

The shields I gain from a more central placement should give me Universities and the like more quickly in other cities. Over the duration of the game, that benefit will make up for any corruption Mecca experiences.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

It's 660AD and I've finally made contact.

Without the Great Library, it wasn't essential for me to make immediate contact. And, because of my war with the Chinese and Arabs, my city development is way behind normal builder schedule...so a late contact is not such a bad thing.

Here is my minimap before contact:


Couple of things to notice:

1) Even with the Great Lighthouse, I was a total wimp. Instead of flitting around the periphery with a single Galley, I could have put my on my "explorer hat" and built several Galleys. The best way to make contact (if you can afford it and desire it) is to have several Galleys strike out in parallel. As it turns out in this game, I don't think I lost much.

2) That's it; there is no thing #2.

And, here is my minimap after making contact:


Couple of things to note here:

1) Somebody is missing. I've made contact with four civs and I've killed two. That leaves one more. Whoever they are, though, they are mighty small.

2) Because I control my continent and I started on the largest continent to begin with, I *own* this game. There is no reason to conquer anyone else and there is no reason at all to build another military unit until I run out of things to build. None. Period.

I'll post again soon with the results of my early contact trade.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

I've played a couple of turns since making contact and my builder strategy is really kicking in. Here are a couple of ways you know you are in the builder stage:

1) Your Military Advisor questions your conjones. Yes, this could happen if you are losing, but I'm not:


2) You don't bother with a military at all. You're not weak, just too busy building. Truth be told, I should have way more workers by now, but you get the picture:


3) Your rivals are Polite or Gracious. Keep them "Fat and Happy" is my motto:


For the rest of the game, I will play with a very aggressive trading strategy that holds nothing back (or at least very little).

This strategy is the backbone of my builder games and works well even with small civilizations. Here's the link:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=90855

As a result of my zealous trading, I've almost caught up tech-wise. Without trading away my own map, I've swapped Theology (and anything needed before it) for full Contact, Monarchy, Feudalism, and Engineering. I've also give away all that I can to bring my rivals up to my level in technology. That means I will probably lose Cope's so my SSC is compromised, but I don't really care that much.

What I really want is Luxuries. I *need* everyone to have sea routes.

More later.

- TT

[Mountain Sage]

Gufnork:
My FP will be in Bejing (I left my capitol in Erin in the south). I speeded it up with my only Leader.
If I were to replay this game, I would have probably put my FP in Shanghai and relocated my capitol in Argos.

We are now in 450 AD. the war is over, the Arabs are history. I disbanded my military units (4 swords and 10 horses).
I am in Republic now and triggered my GA with my only Hoplite.
Theology in 5 turns. Gold enough.
let's wait for he others.

ToeTruck: I like your military might! It reminds me of my PP games.

[fanes7]

I previously want build my FP in Beijing or some place north , but after I found another land at 1000BC , I change my idea, It seems better that build my FP in a bigger land. Now I am thinking whether it is worth to do that.

I think you are almost win in the game , congratulations!

[Arrian]

Once you have a Republic government, disband all your units (even the Elite)

NOOOOOooooooooOO! Not the elites!!! Heretic! BURN HIM!



Great game, TT.

-Arrian

[ToeTruck]

Here's my summary for 1000AD:
- 22 cities
- Three local Luxuries. Importing five foreign Luxuries.
- Excess Horses, Iron, Dye, Incense, and Ivory.
- Expect to find Coal and Rubber in Northern Jungles.
- Only now bothering to connect Saltpeter.
- 33 native Workers. A bunch of captured Workers.
- Researching Medicine in 5 turns. Have all Ancient and Middle Ages techs except Printing Press, Democracy, and Free Artistry.

The minimap is pretty much the same as in my last post except that I have contacted England. The English are now relatively prosperous and good for decent gold per turn deals.

Here's the Southern Map;


Things to notice:

1) There are very few irrigated grasslands. Having the Pyramids as made it unnecessary at least up to size six. Since I only recently have acquired the luxuries to support very large cities, I haven't bothered with irrigating grasslands up to this point.

2) The south is almost completely roaded and fairly well mined as well. I tend to direct my workers in waves starting around my low corruption cities and working my way out. Once all cities are connected, I road and mine everything except plains. I don't bother roading jungles or forests at this point; just clear them and move on with life.

3) To effectively manage lots of workers without driving myself crazy, I form a handful of teams (about six or eight is the most I can think about at one time) and assign the others in onesies or twosies to clear jungles.

4) There aren't a lot of big cities. I really should have a couple of killer cities around the capital, but without the Great Library I had been low on cash most of the game.

Here's the Northern Map:


Things to notice:

1) If you look closely, you can see the small teams of Workers clearing the jungles. That's long hard work; think of it as a background task.

2) Mecca is trying to build Newt's. If everything times out right, I might switch to Theory of Evolution.

3) I haven't done a real good job of developing the north. Oh well.

My goal now is to research the lower branch of the Industrial Ages, get Theory of Evolution in place, and move as quickly as I can through the tech tree.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Originally posted by Arrian


NOOOOOooooooooOO! Not the elites!!! Heretic! BURN HIM!

Sometimes I think playing builder at all in Civ3 is heretical enough without all you warmongers around.

Originally posted by Arrian
Great game, TT.

Thanks Arrian.

- TT

[Arrian]

Well, to be fair, your buildling was set up by the early conquest of 2 other civilizations. Like you and many others, I destroy so that I may create.

-Arrian