Hate Roads - What are They Good For?

Mead · August 27, 2003, 23:10

Roads are usually the last thing I want to build when playing SMAC.

Usually they don't do anything for me except make my empire harder to defend.

If one of my allies builds a road in my territory, more often than not I'll tear it up.

The easier you make it for you to more your troops around the quicker your bases can be overrun. Without roads I can't rush reinforcements to a threatened area, but more importantly, I have more time to rev up my production of military units to face any emergent threat.

When I do go on the offensive I'll often use the classic chop and drop routine. I'll also use the drop abilities of my units to move throughout my empire, even before I get orbital insertion (ever notice that the AI doesn't use any of its units drop abilities to drop move them 8 spaces verses moving them on the ground at a far slower rate; another one of the weaknesses of the AI).

Bad things about roads:

Invites an invasion.
Makes having an aerospace center in your bases less valuable (if you have a road leading to your base your enemy can drop three spaces away from you base and roll into your base on the road).

Good things about roads:
Allows higher production of mines (all my mines have roads on their space).
Does allow your units to more around more quickly, which is particularly good if you are using non-drop units (for me primarily worms).

The bad greatly outweighs the good.

I know some of you like roads. Let me know if there is something about them that I'm overlooking. I'll make roads for transport only if I'm making an invasion route into someone else's territory using a mindworm tidal wave. If there's some big abilty of roads out that I should know about please let me know.

Mead

BTW: I'm even less likely to build Mag tubes. Yes, they are cool, but the coolest thing about them is busting through someone else's defenses and using their own Mag tube network to transport your mindworm army throughout your enemy's entire empire taking it over in 2-3 turns rather than the 10-15 turns it would take, if you enemy had not been so kind as to build that Mag tube network.

AMD4EVER · August 27, 2003, 23:33

Roads do help out in the critical early part of the game. Getting colony pods and formers around faster helps improve how fast you can get started.

Also you can have a lighter defense and be able to shift defenders around to compensate.

But the best things about roads are that your inner bases are directly connected to your weakers outer bases which allows for you to send probe teams up to them very easily if they have been captured so you can quickly take them back and discourage your opponent. I think roads are a great defensive tool in this way. However, depending on them too much can lead to catastrophy if the enemy does start destroying your roads before an invasion.

BustaMike · August 28, 2003, 04:35

Quote:

The bad greatly outweighs the good.

You're joking right... that's really all I have to say.

UnityScoutChopper · August 28, 2003, 06:21

I'm too tired to respond to this well. I know you really deserve a better answer, but for the moment, I second BustaMike.

USC

Lazerus · August 28, 2003, 07:07

What about all that time wasted moving formers and colony pods about aswell ? You've effectively cut your growth by 1/3.

If you're so scared about invasion then build some sensors and bunkers at choke points.

UnityScoutChopper · August 28, 2003, 09:07

Here's some spam from USC networks!

roads

Many terraforming projects (especially elevation changes plus boreholes) require a large number of terraforming turns. It makes sense for many formers to cooperate on such projects, getting one project on line quickly instead of several projects on line slowly. If there is no road in such a space, every former added will lose 1-2 turns (as much as the turn in and the turn out) compared to the situation if there is a road.

Generally, formers should always move outwards from the core, and meanwhile, the core has the greatest former-building capacity. Thus the spaces leading out from the core will be travelled extensively by formers. If the formers built in the core build roads as they head outwards, then the ones that follow them will gain former-turns. (I generally try to ALWAYS have my formers either move onto an unroaded square of the road network's "color," OR onto a rocky square due to these squares' inability to receive forest-spreading, OR ideally onto an unimproved roaded square, always in the outwardmost direction if possible.)

Even if you can keep your neighbors at bay before you get drop units and choppers, mindworms tend not to be so obliging, and so a road network can literally save your outer bases from destruction by worms (though the problem becomes smaller after/if you get the PTS).

A road network increases the flexibility of your crawlers, making it easier to move them to a more productive square or one that improves the square-use portfolio for your bases (a frequent situation with tight base spacing).

A road network makes it easier for your formers to clean up after an improvement-destroying pop.

A road network makes it feasible to build garrisons for new bases in core bases (though I don't, since I can't handle the micromanagement).

A road network speeds up your spies as they head out from the core to steal techs, i.e. helps you get new tech faster.

A road network speeds up explorer units on their way to explore.

A road network speeds up any military unit on its way to the enemy if it was built pre-drop or built dropless post-drop (clean amphibious, mindworms, units' other properties make drop ability ridiculously expensive, etc.)

Finally, don't underestimate the defensive value against other factions, even post-drop. Remember, dropless units are cheaper to complete, and you will usually have some already-built in the area.

USC

lord of the mark · August 28, 2003, 09:42

yet another thing im doing wrong - not wrt to roads, but to drop units.

In civ2 paras were of limited use, especially if you werent using nukes. Ive almost completely neglected drop units in SMAC. Seems like you guys rely on them.

Tell me more.

Fazdaar · August 28, 2003, 09:51

Drop units are very effective, because they can move 8 spaces in a turn and attack out of nowhere. This is most useful in conjunction with choppers, because a few choppers can eliminate all of a bases defenders in a single turn, leaving it exposed. Now, your drop unit can come and conquer that base in the same turn. And when you get Orbital Insertions, you can drop anywhere on the planet from any location, so your troops don't have to be anywhere near the target base, so long as your choppers can clear it out.

Hercules · August 28, 2003, 12:11

Except where there is an aerospace built or an inteceptor in place, I think. And if the base are close there air defences complement each other even if emptied.

Lazerus · August 28, 2003, 12:38

Thats another reason why the cloudbase is regarded as such an important project, especially if all your bases are tightly knit.
It stops any enemy unit airdropping into the base radius

Jamski · August 28, 2003, 13:19

Hell, I'm building roads on practically every square, just to speed up my insane micromanaging crawler strategys, and to help my formers multi-team. I've never worried about the AI attacking along my roads, 'cos normally I don't build the roads up to the borders.

And yes, magtubes are even better, I try and get all my bases on the "mag-grid" as soon as I can.

-Jam

Flubber · August 28, 2003, 14:01

Quote:

Originally posted by BustaMike

You're joking right... that's really all I have to say.

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly.

Mead,

Your statements are either a troll or evidence a lack of understanding of this game

To not build roads since an invader might use them is a defeatist attitude. Do you feel the same way about farms, boreholes etc

A couple of points

1. If an invader can rain units down throughout your empire, you have big probleems already.

2. You should be able to defend your bases with units strong enough to crush a drop unit with its 50% drop penalty. After all you DO have sensors RIGHT. THis is not counting the possibilities with perimeters and ECM (non-elite infantry will face penalties from a hasty attack so I discount them)

So lets see its

Attack value X .5 versus
defence x 2 x1.25 x 1.25

If the attacker has a weapons advantage to make this worthwhile you are lost anyway. with equal morale, this is a 6 fold advantage to the defender.

Also, why would you be so crazy as to leave a roaded square outside a base radii unoccupied -- think crawlers-- I also overlap my base radii a lot, preventing this issue

## My bottom line is that your comments ignore

1. the possibilities of hardened strongpoints
2. using ZOC ie crawlers to stop the advance
3. your ability to bombard a road if it is posing a threat

Personally I see my extensive road system as a defensive plus. It means the greater range of my land units mean I always get the first shot

Lastly-- you mentioned your love of mindworms several times-- These are powerful in the early game but are just plain weak by the midgame. They are slow and both empath units and artillery just crush them. a good opponent will have sensors monitoring any nearby fungus

Jamski · August 28, 2003, 15:45

Me thinks someone needs a PBEM game, Flubbs

-Jam

Ogie Oglethorpe · August 28, 2003, 18:25

Mead,

Roads are a must as everyone here is pointing out.

Particularly in order to get your pods out ASAP and to minimize the need for a lot of units. REly on your interior lines to use a simple cadre of units provide your defenses. Otherwise you rely to heavily on static defenses with heavy emphasis on units. Rely on lighter defense that can respond from the interior.

Net effect. less support costs, less build queue time wasted, more mins available for facility builds, formers, etc.

Roads are invaluable end of story and should be your second t-form activity after making sure you have a 2 nut square established.

Civmonopolis · August 28, 2003, 21:45

About the sensors in enemy territory: I always destroy them before I even think of attacking anything. The artillery may beat up the mind worms pretty bad but that's why you bring along stronger units to take care of those such as Needlejets and such. Empath units are hardly a problem when I'm against the AI they are just like the artillery units. I have to agree with everybody else roads help critically when I win a game it doesn't matter what kind of victory condition. I won't repeat anything that everybody has said so I'll leave at that.

Mead · August 28, 2003, 22:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Flubber

***

(1) 2. You should be able to defend your bases with units strong enough to crush a drop unit with its 50% drop penalty. (2) After all you DO have sensors RIGHT. This is not counting the possibilities with perimeters and ECM (non-elite infantry will face penalties from a hasty attack so I discount them)

***

(3) Also, why would you be so crazy as to leave a roaded square outside a base radii unoccupied -- think crawlers-- (4) I also overlap my base radii a lot, preventing this issue

## My bottom line is that your comments ignore

(5) 1. the possibilities of hardened strongpoints
(6) 2. using ZOC ie crawlers to stop the advance
(7) 3. your ability to bombard a road if it is posing a threat

(8) Personally I see my extensive road system as a defensive plus. It means the greater range of my land units mean I always get the first shot

(9) Lastly-- you mentioned your love of mindworms several times-- These are powerful in the early game but are just plain weak by the midgame. They are slow and both empath units and artillery just crush them. a good opponent will have sensors monitoring any nearby fungus

Flubber post above with redactions:

Since so many issues were raised at once (I can not complain since I said a lot in my post) I'll try to answer them one by one.

1. I am not worried about resisting air dropped units attacking my bases, I am more concerned with air dropped units occupying my bases after a successful missile/air attack. If I am the victim of a chop and drop the 'dropper' will occupy my base after I've been chopped. Usually I try to economize, limit, the number of military units I keep in my interior bases (enough to help prevent the drone riots, plus an extra margin in the bases that really count; SPs bases, energy park, HQ).

2. Sensors are one of the first things I build (although they do limit what else I can do with that square).

3. I do use crawlers, mostly in energy parks, plus the occasional special square and distant square as an early warning sentry (I like trawlers too, but we're not talking about naval tactics). I haven't used crawlers to deny a landing site due to their ZOC. I'll try using it in my future games.

4. I love Aerospace Centers. When building a new base it is one of the first improvements I'll make (since I just have the basic SMAC I cannot get the Cloudbase Academy. If it gives you a Aerospace Center in every base it must be a very powerful SP). I do try to have Aerospace Centers in most (if not all) bases, and if they are close enough, they will give drop protection overlap (easy to do if you are doing ICS).

5. I will develop hard choke points. These will be well located bases, lavishly equipped with; perimeter, aerospace center, tachyan (if available), two or three sensors, lots of well armored AAA defensive units, and good offensive units (rovers, choppers) to reach out and touch the invaders, plus a probe or two. The lack of roads just makes these strong points stronger.

6. You are right, I got to use the crawlers for this more often even if I do not like using them, even if necessary, as cannon fodder.

7. True, but if I have artillery units and there are enemy units on the way to my base I would rather get two volleys off at them on the way in rather than using one volley on them and one on the road.

8. Yes, roads are a defensive plus in that they allow your defensive units to cover more ground, but IMHO I would rather have more time to deal with the invader and get more shots at him before he reaches my bases.

9. Yes, unprotected Mindworms are mincemeat for artillery and empathy. Yes, they are slow SO LONG AS THERE ARE NOT ANY ROADS or fungus (or Mag tubes) for them to travel on. I lately have shied away from the worms (because it takes so long to get them to where they need to be) unless the game is close, and I get NA and DT. Then, I will unleash the worms. I will protect them by doing a recon ahead with choppers to find and kill artillery. One of the nice things about worms (particularly if enhanced by DT and SE plusses) and roads is that even if they have to travel two spaces on a road (2/3) of their move, their last 1/3 of their move into the enemy base there is not a hasty attack and they hit with their full firepower. If I do not have NA and DT I will try capture them or try to win another way.

+++

Restatement:

If you have a good defensive sensor system up ~ 4-5 spaces in front of your frontier bases you get a ~ 5 turn warning to protect your bases [lay your ambush] (and harry the invader with air units if you got them) if your enemy decides to launch a ground based invasion; assuming non-elite, infantry invaders. Even with rover or elite equipped enemy you still have time to prepare your active defense.

If you have roads in place your enemy gets to you 3 times as fast and you have a third of the time to react.

And, if you have drop units available (can move up to 8 space as the crow flies) you can easily fortify the threatened frontier bases from other bases much faster than you could with roads. Remember, if you drop unit drops into a base it doesn't suffer the 20% damage penalty and does not have any 50% energy penalty if defending after its turn is finished.

With roads, you and your opponent share the same flexibility within your empire. Without roads, you can drop into whichever of your cities you want, and you have the advantage.

Once at war, I don't like to be attacked, I prefer to attack my opponents first, on my own terms. I can't always make this work against an enemy who uses airpower effectively, but if I avoid making roads, create a good drop force and sufficient airpower, I can hit a land invasion hard before it can hit me enough to hurt.

Yes, I also like the speed roads give my formers and colony pods, but still not enough to make roads.

I am surprised no one mentioned is that rivers enhance mobility, just like roads. I just live with the effects because I do not want to some serious, and usually destructive teraforming.

Yes, I have not played PBEM. It would be good to test the roadless strategy against non-AI opponents, but I only have the basic SMAC not the SMACX most have.

Finally, I am sorry for this long post but I wanted to answer as many of the questions as I could. I hope I did not set a record for length of post. Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions.

Mead

BustaMike · August 29, 2003, 00:13

Someone already said this, but I'm gonna restate it in a slightly different way. Roads WILL help you to progress faster in the game. If you progress faster than your opponent, you will be the one doing the attacking. If you insist on not building roads your going to end up creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will be behind and you will get attacked.

Flubber said it perfectly, not building roads represents a basic misunderstanding of fundamental gameplay.

Mongoose · August 29, 2003, 03:48

Additionally, a late midgame to late game gorund attack (rare as it is with human oppoments) will likely be made with hovertanks, not speeders. Your lack of roads will not slow the attacker at all in that case.

Lazerus · August 29, 2003, 06:33

I'm sure the enemy will also be smart enough to notice if you have roads or not and if you don't he will sabotage that aerospace complex with a probe after he's cleared your base, thus allowing the unit to be dropped closer and your base still gets taken.

Also I tend to use drop rovers for the sheer fact i can take a few bases after dropping, if theres nothing to kill or counter attack you theres no real need for a tough infantry.

Lazerus · August 29, 2003, 06:39

You know to stop your complete paranoia of losing to a first strike situation you could always just infiltrate your enemy, demand he keeps units away from the front line and you do the same, if he mvoes up then you've got a turn or 2 (about as much as no roads) to get your choppers ready to attack/counter whatever happens.

blockhead · August 29, 2003, 08:10

i am disgusted with this thread
i do NOT build supply **** and i do NOT build roads and i am the BEST player
how do you explain that??
extreme luck in 250+ MP games??
hahahaha

blockhead

UnityScoutChopper · August 29, 2003, 09:52

At the risk of repeating what others have said:

Roads help you develop more quickly.

You thus have more money, more units, and better units than if you did not have roads.

Thus, in the end you are the one attacking, not someone else.

Thus preparing for an "inevitable assault" is unnecessary. If one does come, you will be using your road network on BETTER terms than your opponent, not equal, because the parameters of his force are more or less set (except for, in an MP game, on-the-fly upgrades), while you can react with complete flexibility.

Roads help win the game, definitely in SP, and probably in MP (though I've never played MP).

USC

Flubber · August 29, 2003, 10:21

Mead

If you are playing against the AI only and they are attacking you in the chopper era, that says loads about your strategy of no roads. Try using roads to speed your development so that you are ahead of the AI and their attacks are not possible.

My attitude against the AI in the chopper era is very simply "strike first"- My interior bases often have only police scouts for the simple reason that they are unreachable. Roads equals faster development and a bigger empire

If your fear of your own roads come because the AI is emptying your INTERIOR bases with its airpower, the roads are not your problem, its the fact you are so far behind militarily that this is even possible. Why the heck do you permit the AI to build up choppers and drop units within 8 squares of your empire ? As soon as I see this I start emptying THEIR bases.

Re rivers-- never felt the need to state the obvious-- I love rivers for the energy plus -- In fact I often build them in dry areas by drilling to aquifer

You treat roads as static but they are not. Of course I don't run a road into my enemies empire if they can use it but I will build one if I can patrol it with choppers. If an enemy tries to use a road into me , its a very simple matter to send out a scout to cut the road-- instant kill zone-- If you don't see the attack coming in time to do this . .. your proble is lack of infiltration/patrolling

It is so easy to destroy a road if you feel the need . . Also, if your enemy has the ability to come at you from multiple directions, I must say again that the roads are not your problem ... the fact that you are getting crushed is . . .

mead,

Your long post indicates that you have a pretty good awareness of some of the game mechanics but not using roads ( other than as a self-imposed game handicap) is, quite simply, a grievous error .

Ask yourself this . . . can you defeat the AI on transcend level easily and repeatedly such that the only way you could ever possibly lose to the AI is by imposing harsh restrictions or handicaps on yourself . . . Most of the people that have responded are of that caliber

Flubber · August 29, 2003, 10:26

Quote:

Originally posted by blockhead
i am disgusted with this thread
i do NOT build supply **** and i do NOT build roads and i am the BEST player
how do you explain that??
extreme luck in 250+ MP games??
hahahaha

blockhead

Let us all bow down before you whom-we-have-never-heard-of

blockhead · August 29, 2003, 12:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Flubber

Let us all bow down before you whom-we-have-never-heard-of

DO YOU PLAY ONLINE ??

i am sure you do not (if you were playing online, you would have known me very well), so shut up !!

pbem and single has nothing to do with real multiplaying (=real gaming)

blockhead

Jamski · August 29, 2003, 12:15

Ummm, how long would we say it takes to play the average PBEM game? 6-24 months perhaps? Lets take a nice minimum of 6 months. And let's assume that it's not humanly possible to play more than 20 at a time (which isn't humanly possible for me, but he is the BEST player, so let's cut him some slack

) In this way it would only take six and a quarter years at the constant rate to get the 250 games played... and SMAC hasn't even been available that long.

Of course every BEST player avoids those mineral wasting supply crawlers, and every BEST player naturally has seen the advantage in moving colony pods into place at 1/3 of the speed.

/me wonders why he/she's called "blockhead" *

Sorry about that, but some people....

-Jam

Jamski · August 29, 2003, 12:18

Ah, posted at the same time....

I didn't realise that PBEM wasn't multiplayer

-Jam

blockhead · August 29, 2003, 12:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamski
Ummm, how long would we say it takes to play the average PBEM game? 6-24 months perhaps? Lets take a nice minimum of 6 months. And let's assume that it's not humanly possible to play more than 20 at a time (which isn't humanly possible for me, but he is the BEST player, so let's cut him some slack

) In this way it would only take six and a quarter years at the constant rate to get the 250 games played... and SMAC hasn't even been available that long.

Of course every BEST player avoids those mineral wasting supply crawlers, and every BEST player naturally has seen the advantage in moving colony pods into place at 1/3 of the speed.

* Jamski wonders why he/she's called "blockhead" *

Sorry about that, but some people....

-Jam

yes, ppl in this forums are idiots
i said MP, NO PBEM !
1-2 games/1-2days and playing for 2 years (700 days) = min. 350 games possible

moving pods at 1/3 speed? you build all pods at hq and make roads to new base position? i build pods near borders and use formers to improve already build cities, which is surely more efficient..

blockhead

Mongoose · August 29, 2003, 12:29

Bloody blowhard!

Flubber · August 29, 2003, 13:06

2 games a DAY ??!! What are these, small map arenafests ?? They must be on small maps or tiny maps

To me, online and PBEM are equally good tests of playing skill although PBEM is better in that it allows reflection on strategy moves and better diplomacy negotiations.

But Blockhead when someone totally unknown comes into an experienced group of players and

1. espouses totally unsound play-- no crawlers and not using any roads
2. claims to be the "Best player"

Expect a little resistance--

Tell you what . . . If you are the best player, we could probably line up a few folks to show you what good play means. Perhaps a comparison SP game where you can use your no crawler strat or a PBEM . . I wonder if one of our stronger players could be bothered to demonstrate the fallacies of your no-crawler strategy.

The best player I have ever played is a guy named " buster" over at CGN. As far as I am concerned, until you show something against some established players, you are just talk.

A lousy player is still a lousy player no matter how many games you win if you only play other lousy players. For you to proclaim your superiority without testing yourself in this playing community is just plain arrogant.