Hate Roads - What are They Good For? - Page 5

Lazerus · August 30, 2003, 19:05

Prob got scared somebody called his bluff

Mead · August 30, 2003, 19:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Flubber

Mead, the lack of smax is irrelevant as I do play vanilla smac and skill level is what is tested by the contest. A lack of free time is fatal ( although early turns only take a couple of minutes)

I will try to make time to participate if a new ACDG starts, which runs after the current game finishes (or in parallel to the current game). Hopefully, it will use only SMAC or I'll find somewhere to buy SMACX before it starts. Any suggestions, from anyone, of stores or retail chains where I can buy a licensed copy of it would be greatly appreciated.

As I understand the current proposal in the Which Game Shall We Play thread, the new game will have everyone against the 'Googlie tweaked' AI plus perhaps a couple of factions handled an expert player. This would be a good place for me 'to get my feet wet' and become familiar with PBEM and playing against an entity other than the AI.

Because of my inexperience at playing against humans, I will start off as one of the worst PBEM players out there.

When and if a new ACDG starts off, and I am able to partake in it, and I figure out how PBEM works, and I am at least halfway decent at it, then I accept your challenge.

I would like to try out my low road usage strategy against a human after I have some competency at PBEM.

Mead

P.S.
If we do the challenge after I know how to play PBEM please don't refuse me the right to make a little road or two here and there (in addition to the mine roads, or hopefully for me, the invasion route I plan on building into yours or the AI's empire when I'm ready.)

Jamski · August 31, 2003, 07:07

Oh well, if he doesn't want to play, and he's banned from 'poly, let's just forget about him. Perhaps he really was the BEST, but we shall probably never know.

BTW, what's wrong with "look first" ?

-Jam

Pandir · August 31, 2003, 08:25

To bad. I really wanted to this no roads,no crawlers strategy. I could use a good laugh.

CEO Aaron · August 31, 2003, 13:05

So Blockhead suddenly vaporised when placed in a position where he'd have to back up his trash-talk? Color me completely unsuprised. Well, in a way I'm sorry to see the back of him he did make life interesting here for a while. However while one retarded troll is fun, two can ruin a perfectly good forum, so it's just as well we've got folks enforcing the rules.

Lazerus · August 31, 2003, 19:55

Normally i wouldn't boast but I suck and I've just beaten the "best" player

Jam : I'm up for some more IP challenges

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Laz...BlockRothe.zip

In that zip is turns 2127,2146,2163,2180.
Incase you want to see how he plays Morgan (nice amount of energy in those bases). I was playing as the Drones for the 1st or 2nd time in an MP game, trying them as ICS similar to the Hive but getting into nothing detailed with too many formers so i didnt slow it to pbem pace.

Also after you've taken his insults, given a few back and generally laughed in his face im sure he starts to give a little respect lol

hey Block if you're reading this

yes i know i suck but my amphibs kicked your arse lol

Mead · September 1, 2003, 02:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Pandir
To bad. I really wanted to this no roads,no crawlers strategy. I could use a good laugh.

How about crawlers and trawlers, but no roads except on mines?

After replying to Flubber that I would take him up on his challenge after I learned how to play PBEM well, so long as he allowed me to build a little road or two here and there (i.e. he didn't hold me strict to my no roads except on mines or invasion force route initial post), I decided to try SP on Transcend without building a single road except on mines to test out my theory.

My SMAC results so far at 2321 playing Zak on a Huge Standard map with look first, directed research, no random events, standard rules otherwise.

According to the Graphs I'm 2nd, behind the Hive.

Morgan, Deirdre, and Miriam have been eliminated (not by me).

I had a treaty, but did not Pact (she wanted me to join her Vendetta against Hive and I wasn't ready for that) with Deirdre, and hadn't infiltrated her before she went down so I didn't know just how bad off she was. I didn't even now where on the map she was; I never saw a green base. If I had known how bad off she was I would have gifted her a safe base to keep her in the game as my ally. At least I was able to get a bunch of Techs from her (for cash) just before she went under.

I had a treaty with Morgan and infiltrated him but would not join his vendetta against Sparta so he wouldn't Pact. Then when he was down to three bases he decided to declare vendetta on me and would not talk to me, so I was not able to help him. I think he was bought off or just did not like me being green (I like it for the efficiency).

Miriam; well the Peacekeepers took care of her rather early on. Not before she built the VW. It hurts that I, as Zak, did not get it, but I'm managing with Rec Commons, clean police, and hospitals in the big bases, AV and LV helps too.

Geographically

Lal has the Long L shaped continent on the western part of the map (all the way from the Ruins to Mount Planet, Hive has the Monsoon Jungle and the entire Huge Land Mass on the eastern side of the map, Santiago has the large Island in the Northern Sea plus a bunch of sea bases in the north and between the large landmass in the center. I have the large landmass in the center of the map.

I missed out on almost all of the early SPs (including VW, WP, and ME), (maybe there is something to building roads early on?) but managed to get all the ones I care about since then (Neural Amp, Supercollider, Hunter Seeker, and Cyborg Factory). Plus I picked up Xenopathy Dome, Ascetic Virtues, LV, Living Refinery, and the PTS (it really does increase all your bases, including the ones you already have, that are smaller than size three, to size three).

Although officially I am number two on the graph, the game is well in hand. I have infiltrated everyone. I have a huge tech lead, Shard choppers, plus three orbital power stations up already (and more under construction). The best anyone else has is Chaos.

The current concerns are
Protecting my energy park (hence I have started to take some of Sparta's sea bases because the Hive used one to pick off a few crawlers with needlejets because I neglected to clean out one of the bases once).

Sparta and Hive have allied against me, but Lal seems content (I am running Green and Democracy, for the efficiency, and Lal has not declared vendetta on me yet). This may change after I pass Hive as number one. Lal already hit me up for 100ec, which I paid because I do not want to fight him right now.

Biggest concern - Lal, Sparta, and Hive are now all building a PB each. Even with my tech lead I don't think I will have ODPs up before the PBs are built. Lal and I have voted against atrocities so far (Hive is the governor - I'll change that in about 30 years) but the PBs will probably be used anyway. I can only hope that Lal's base with the PB, will be the target, not my SSC.

Greatest discovery -
Even without building a single road, except for the roads built on mines, a patchy road network still emerges.

If anyone wants the save let me know how to post it and I'll do so.

Mead

Pandir · September 1, 2003, 05:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Mead

How about crawlers and trawlers, but no roads except on mines?

If thats the way you play its your business but frankly I think its crazy not to take advantage of roads/mag tubes.

Flubber · September 1, 2003, 14:31

mead -- I don't doubt you can beat the AI without roads-- IIRC there are people that have done it without building formers, or without probes. heck you can win without building a base ( as deidre or the cult) in the nomad challenge.

It souncs as if you are doing well in your game but IMHO it still does not change the fact that no roads is a fundamentally bad strategy.

Again IMHO, if two players were equally skilled and "A "uses roads to speed colony pods to their destination and "B" does not, "A" should win every time. In the early game I find I am waiting to have bases grow to size 2 so that a CP can be rushed. With roads ready, the base gets planted on the same turn or the next turn while a no roads strategy means 2-3 more turns before the base is founded. Multiply the added support and lost labs by the number of bases founded and consider that the secons set of colony pods are ready those 2-3 turns quicker . . . its a considerable disadvantage.

This is not to even talk about the advantages of gang-terraforming, which really comes into its own if there is a road on the square

Mead, I accept your challenge. Take any time you need to hone your skills. I expect that after some more play you will seriously rethink your limited-roads strategy. . . If you still believe in it, there are any number of ways we can test it out, including a PBEM or even a comparison game.

Flubber · September 1, 2003, 14:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Mead

Greatest discovery -
Even without building a single road, except for the roads built on mines, a patchy road network still emerges.

Mead

Naturally . . . and on the frontier this can be a boon as your rovers can dash out to smash any approaching forces while your crawlers deny the road to your enemies.

The problem with this type of network is that it still takes a CP an additional turn to found a base compared to having a road going to the base site

Big caveat-- IF it happens that there are a couple of rivers in a players starting position, the need for roads is reduced since the rivers act as roads for the purposes of early development

Mead · September 1, 2003, 23:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Flubber

***

(1) It souncs as if you are doing well in your game but IMHO it still does not change the fact that no roads is a fundamentally bad strategy.

(2) This is not to even talk about the advantages of gang-terraforming, which really comes into its own if there is a road on the square

(3) Mead, I accept your challenge. Take any time you need to hone your skills. I expect that after some more play you will seriously rethink your limited-roads strategy. . . If you still believe in it, there are any number of ways we can try it out, including a PBEM or even a comparison game.

Flubber

It is year 2402 and the game is winding up. I will either Transcend or diplomatic victory in about 20 years.

I resisted the temptation to build a single road except on mines to fully test the theory. I did not even build one to move my invasion force to the coast for loading on the transports/IoDs. Ouch it hurts.

In response to your comments above.

1. It is unwise to strictly adhere to any strategy regardless of the circumstances. I was stuck on the middle big landmass - All By Myself. I had no need to worry about an invasion. If one were to come it would be by sea, not land. In the game I played, roads would have greatly enhanced my interior lines of communication without any real risk of invasion. If I were sharing a continent the rule to limit roads would have made more sense.

2. Yes, gang-terraforming would have been much easier with roads. I was also greatly tempted to forego the test to build a road from my SSC to its energy park and from other bases to the SSC. It was frustrating watching how long it took for those crawlers to get to their solar cells, particularly after I had to replace a few that Yang shot up. Even now there are some solar cells that are not being worked. With the game ending soon I am not sure it is worth the hassle. Plus, it will take a long while for the crawlers to get from the new SSC to the park, and their spot in the park. Now, if I had a road or mag tube from the SSC to the park? Hmmm?

3. After my skills improve, I will do the challenge. I will still be very conservative with the placement of roads, but do recognize they have their place; just a different style of play.

As for how the game went:
Yang did take out my SSC with a PB, which hurt a lot because a lot of SPs were there; and not just the research ones. He also lobbed a few PBs at Lal and Santiago. Now I have 7 ODPs up and just got the Space Elevator (Yang only has 3 farms up). I have taken just about all of Lal's homeland (got the VW from him), Yang's HQ, and the mindworm wave is working its way across Yang's land, but because of the loss of the HSA to the PB I have to be careful not to leave anything at risk without probe support.

Strictly limiting the roads had a substantial effect on development. Had I been flexible with the roads the game likely would have been over by now. Lack of them slowed the expansion, development of the terraforming, and equipping of the energy park. Lack of roads only slightly affected military operations. Almost all battles happened on my enemies land. Having few roads helped in that the few times anyone landed on my shores, they never made it to a base before their destruction at the hands of my airpower.

I'll finish the game, but transcend or diplomatic victory as soon as possible, whichever I can do first. It has been a painful game.

Mead

Fazdaar · September 2, 2003, 00:31

Ok, you have beaten the ai without roads. But, you mentioned several times that having roads would have aided in your growth, particularly concerning your SSC and formers/crawlers. Granted, you have shown that you have the skill to win without roads.

However, you said yourself that if you used roads to speed your game up, you would have won by now. So, if you are in a PBEM with good players and you need to grow fast to compete, wouldn't using roads make more sense than not using them? I just don't see how fear of their use as invasion routes outweighs the extreme benefit of speeding up your developement. If you are that worried about being invaded, it shouldn't be too hard to destroy them if you do happen to be invaded. The extra movement they offer helps you get reinforcements more quickly, giving you a much greater benefit than your opponent, since the garrisons in nearby bases that could be brought up in a turn or 2 should be more than the invasion force can handle. If you have roads way outside your bases and are afraid of a sneak attack using them, simply lay down some sensors out there. If you spot them with your sensors 1 turn before they can attack, bring up extra defenders and the attacker is toast. Trust me, it is worth the tremendous boost to your growth.

Chaos Theory · September 2, 2003, 02:33

Regarding blockhead's complaint about look first:
I always play against him with look first on, so he has nothing at all to complain about there.

Lazerus · September 2, 2003, 10:28

Dont see the need to have look first on in an IP game, the map is generated so that the position you land normally has a river and lots of rainy squares, i cant remember a single occasion ive moved more then 1 square away from my landing position to plant my first base in a game

Jamski · September 2, 2003, 11:34

It can help if your scouts find a mineral or nut bonus just outside of the base radius... or even both. You may "waste" a tun moving the pod, but the turn is "saved" by the speeded production of the vital early pods.

Quote:

It is year 2402 and the game is winding up.

Owch, but that's a long game. I can't help but blame the lack of roads...

-Jam

Flubber · September 2, 2003, 12:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamski
It can help if your scouts find a mineral or nut bonus just outside of the base radius... or even both. You may "waste" a tun moving the pod, but the turn is "saved" by the speeded production of the vital early pods.

Owch, but that's a long game. I can't help but blame the lack of roads...

-Jam

I agree with the look first option-- Let choosing a base site be the first decision a player makes. If on a river, its no problem to plant the base after moving the scout to get a better sense of whats out there

2402 ouch-- I would have no patience to play that long. I can't recall the last time I went beyond 2250

Flubber · September 2, 2003, 12:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Mead

It was frustrating watching how long it took for those crawlers to get to their solar cells, particularly after I had to replace a few that Yang shot up. Even now there are some solar cells that are not being worked.

Mead

If you have no roads in an area, thats ok . .. all you need to have is a good crawlable resource on each tile en route to your park. Its called the crawler crawl and takes a lot of patience to go back to each crawler after moving it and directing it to collect resources. next turn you have to remembeer to wake it up and continue to move it. So if you want to better a no-roads strat, make a line of good tiles leading to your crawler park. let the crawlers gather and move. In this case, all you are losing is the difference in resource production between the en route tiles and the destination tiles. If a base is producing a crawler a turn, it gets pretty systematic.

Note I do the crawler crawl on roads as well-- its just faster and easier

I do this a lot with sea trawlers. They patrol to look for invaders or simply move outward before ending at a resource square to collect stuff. IT has a major PIA factor since you have to manually go to each trawler and wake it up . . Perhaps there is an easier way but I don't know it

Googlie · September 2, 2003, 17:15

Yeah - it'd be nice to have a "go to" command with a caveat "harvest resources at end of turn", with a pop-upm window asking which resource to harvest.

I guess that'd make for some involved programming though, and not worth the designers' investment of time. I mean, some people actually like to micromanage those games so would never automate even if the choices made eminent sense

G.

Alinestra Covelia · September 3, 2003, 03:36

Hey, blockhead left his email address...

...now I'm sure somebody somewhere could find entertaining ways of using this information...

BustaMike · September 3, 2003, 03:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
Hey, blockhead left his email address...

...now I'm sure somebody somewhere could find entertaining ways of using this information...

Already did... see the words of wisdom thread

Lazerus · September 3, 2003, 05:17

Quote:

If you have no roads in an area, thats ok . .. all you need to have is a good crawlable resource on each tile en route to your park. Its called the crawler crawl and takes a lot of patience to go back to each crawler after moving it and directing it to collect resources. next turn you have to remembeer to wake it up and continue to move it. So if you want to better a no-roads strat, make a line of good tiles leading to your crawler park. let the crawlers gather and move. In this case, all you are losing is the difference in resource production between the en route tiles and the destination tiles. If a base is producing a crawler a turn, it gets pretty systematic.

Means every crawler would need to be a rover with no roads, rather expensive until fusion power.

Kody · September 3, 2003, 05:28

You can set the crawler to crawl a resource even if it has 0 moves left.

Flubber · September 3, 2003, 11:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazerus

Means every crawler would need to be a rover with no roads, rather expensive until fusion power.

not correct-- see Kody's response. Even with roads I try to plan my route to my ultimate tile to be crawled so there are intermediate good tiles to crawl along the way. With planning, an interior base can continue to be a source of crawlers with no loss of gathering time.

Again the major problem is the PIA factor since the screen will jump to some other active unit. One trick is to make a scout or something active near where your crawlers stop so that the screen will jump back to that area as you go through your units. I activate garrisons in areas all the time for a number of reasons so I remember to deal with things. Sometimes I even make a landmark temporarily such as " worms here" or "crawler transit" but thats rarer.

Lazerus · September 3, 2003, 17:56

Realised that later 2day, i don't belong in mornings

Mead · September 5, 2003, 22:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Fazdaar

***

However, you said yourself that if you used roads to speed your game up, you would have won by now. So, if you are in a PBEM with good players and you need to grow fast to compete, wouldn't using roads make more sense than not using them? I just don't see how fear of their use as invasion routes outweighs the extreme benefit of speeding up your development. If you are that worried about being invaded, it shouldn't be too hard to destroy them if you do happen to be invaded. The extra movement they offer helps you get reinforcements more quickly, giving you a much greater benefit than your opponent, since the garrisons in nearby bases that could be brought up in a turn or 2 should be more than the invasion force can handle. If you have roads way outside your bases and are afraid of a sneak attack using them, simply lay down some sensors out there. If you spot them with your sensors 1 turn before they can attack, bring up extra defenders and the attacker is toast. Trust me, it is worth the tremendous boost to your growth.

Game Over 2424
Transcend victory (I could have won by conquest in 2420 but since I just about had the tech to build Voice of Planet I let Yang keep his single sea base so I could transcend). For those who keep track it was a 382% AC score. I know people have higher scores but I was not taking any actions to either inflate or minimize it.

If I knew how to count my own votes properly, I could have ended the game in about 2410 through diplomatic victory but I assumed I had the votes and unsuccessfully tried for a diplomatic victory in 2406 (just after I got Clinical Immortality).

I agree it was a game that was too long.

I set out to not make any roads except for those on mines, and I ensured that none of my formers were set on full auto or auto improve home base so that they would not make non-mine roads (I normally do not put them on auto improve home base or worse full auto, because I like to micro manage them and I get tired of watching them take their time-consuming scenic trips around the world).

I concede that roads are extremely useful for development unless you want to play a long game against the computer. I agree with Flubber in that a road builder will leave a non-builder in the dust because of quicker development.

Based upon the game that I played I still found that from a pure military point of view, as opposed to whole game concept, militarily it was easier to defend my home turf if I did not have roads. I also found it was much easier and quicker to attack my enemies using their own road and mag tube systems against them. Once I got a foothold on Yang's homeland and had ~30 mind worms there I was able to explode and take the whole continent in 4 turns because of the mag tubes. He started to build artillery and empathic, but because of he did not have enough turns to get them built I overwhelmed him.

Because of the mag tube network Santiago built I was able to take her whole mainland in two turns. I will use roads but will remain cautious of their use.

Concession:

Roads are essential for development. If I had built them the game would not have lasted nearly so long.

Mead

gwillybj · September 6, 2003, 04:35

Quote:

Flubber wrote: 2402 ouch-- I would have no patience to play that long. I can't recall the last time I went beyond 2250

Try solo-play on one of my giant maps (256w/208h) with techstag on and change this item in alpha.txt to 50:

Quote:

100, ; Technology discovery rate as a percentage of standard

I had to change this item to 3000 to avoid forced retirement:

Quote:

2500 ; Normal ending year for highest 3 difficulty levels

I've had games go into the 2800's

I play screwy

anyway, but it's all good

Oh, in keeping with the thread title: On these maps, roads are a must, with magtubes ASAP.

Chaos Theory · September 6, 2003, 04:58

You can play on even larger worlds. If you try to make a custom-sized map from within the game, it caps each dimension at 256, but if you edit alphax.txt, at #WORLDSIZE, you can add new entries with potentially much larger sizes. I found that a map with nine times the area of huge was about as large as the game could handle before the map took too long to generate.

Here is the added line:
Humongous planet, 192, 384

Also, remember to change the number just under #WORLDSIZE to accurately reflect the number of entries.

Lazerus · September 6, 2003, 14:14

2800's ? i didnt even think it allowed you to play that long... theres the forced retirement isn't there ?

Flubber · September 6, 2003, 15:17

Quote:

Originally posted by gwillybj

Try solo-play on one of my giant maps (256w/208h) with techstag on and change this item in alpha.txt to 50:I had to change this item to 3000 to avoid forced retirement:I've had games go into the 2800's

I play screwy

anyway, but it's all good

Oh, in keeping with the thread title: On these maps, roads are a must, with magtubes ASAP.

I'm not saying the game is over by 2250, its just that I find that always by around that time, against an AI, there is no doubt as to my victory and I can't be bothered to continue ( I have limited time to play)

Your ideas are fine but they just make the game longer . . .

gwillybj · September 9, 2003, 03:09

Lazerus: Normally, yes, forced retirement is at 2500. I changed that line in alpha.txt to 3000 (near the bottom of the #RULES section).

Flubber: Due to a serious medical condition, I cannot work, so my "play time" is not as limited. Of course, SMAC is not all I do when I am not asleep or otherwise unconscious, but I do play every game completely through. That is also why I hesitate to join the PBEM ranks.
My gaming experience goes back to the days of tabletop wargames (Avalon Hill, Victory Games, etc.) that could take 3 hours, 3 nights, or 3 weeks to play (and in which roads were a major factor both offensively and defensively; also tactically, strategically, and to a degree operationally). When it became necessary to "go Solo," games took even longer. My first computer wargames were for the Commodore64 computer (on which it sometimes took 3 months to play a single scenario).
So I grew accustomed to long games, and I prefer it that way.
That is one of the great things about SMAC: It can be fast and short or slow and long, whichever the player wants it to be.