Coquests to include all PTW content?

[TheArsenal]

I am one of those who feel I’ve gotten my money’s worth out of PtW, and if the CD ends up shelved because of Conquests – oh well. But for the sake of argument, even if that weren’t true it would still be difficult for me to feel exploited because (a) nothing is forcing me to buy Conquests the moment it comes out. I could always play PtW until I “got my money’s worth” and then buy C3C, 6 months, a year, two years down the road, or never. It’s that whole free will thing. (b) Ending up with a “useless” PtW CD when I buy C3C assumes that I will enjoy all the new aspects of C3C so much I will never want return to PtW, or appreciate the old XP for the aspects that have not been changed. Before even playing Conquests, this is a very difficult thing to determine.

That said, my sense of outrage is a little lower than some others, as I hung around and played CtP2 until I read in these forums that the games (for Civ III then PtW) were basically fixed before buying them. So I’ve never contended with the same level of bugginess as others.

[dexters]

Originally posted by TheArsenal
I am one of those who feel I’ve gotten my money’s worth out of PtW, and if the CD ends up shelved because of Conquests – oh well. But for the sake of argument, even if that weren’t true it would still be difficult for me to feel exploited because (a) nothing is forcing me to buy Conquests the moment it comes out. I could always play PtW until I “got my money’s worth” and then buy C3C, 6 months, a year, two years down the road, or never. It’s that whole free will thing. (b) Ending up with a “useless” PtW CD when I buy C3C assumes that I will enjoy all the new aspects of C3C so much I will never want return to PtW, or appreciate the old XP for the aspects that have not been changed. Before even playing Conquests, this is a very difficult thing to determine.

That said, my sense of outrage is a little lower than some others, as I hung around and played CtP2 until I read in these forums that the games (for Civ III then PtW) were basically fixed before buying them. So I’ve never contended with the same level of bugginess as others.

Give me a break.

Feeling you got your money's worth and the old "no one is forcing you to buy this argument" is deflecting from the main issue, and that is, giving consumers who bought the games what they pay for.

Other companies are clearly going above and beyond your low standards, so it's not an unreasonable demand.

Also, the "don't buy it if you don't want to argument" is flawed. Because if people want to buy it, they are FORCED to buy the whole package. There is no product differentiation, as EA and any number of publishers have done.

At the most basic, most xpansion packs are self-contained, they don't contain last year's xp material. Conquests is a unique case, and as such, Atari has special responsibilities to the people who bought PTW to make sure that at the very least they acknowledge there are people who bought PTW and also want the new content.

Why does everyone have to repurchase the game? Because a of people like you Arsenal? You feel its ok, therefore it must be ok? Clearly, many don't, and all we want is a choice. EA iwith Sim City 4 is giving its consumers choice. Atari is not.

People like me just want to either a) get a discount for PTW owners b) a Conquests LITE with only the new material, at a lower price so we can just upgrade.

This way, people who didn't buy PTW can get their increadible deal. And people like you can pay Atari again for content you bought last year and beta tested for. For others, we can just buy the new content, since we paid for the PTW crap last year and don't want to pay for it again.

[TheArsenal]

Give me a break.

[shrug] In short: It’s a couple of thirty dollar products. So it just looks to me that the sense of outrage and entitlement here are completely out of proportion. To you it doesn’t. So be it.

My “low standards” are based upon the value I place upon $30.00, and, the emotional investment in whether I perceive myself as being “duped” into buying a cheap product twice or not; neither of which is very high for me. It is very high for you. In any case, these are called “opinions”. Occasionally people’s will differ from yours. Even with something as important as a game.

[dexters]

Originally posted by TheArsenal


[shrug] In short: It’s a couple of thirty dollar products. So it just looks to me that the sense of outrage and entitlement here are completely out of proportion. To you it doesn’t. So be it.

I see plenty of $30 xpansion packs out there that give you more than what Firaxis/Atari is including in C3C even when you include the PTW content.

WarCraft III The Frozen Throne has tons and tons of new stuff. Sim City 4 XP expands on the core game's weak points and expands on its strengths. Tons of new features (additions to the core engine), and its retailing for $20 with a rebate to boot.

As I've noted in another post, Firaxis and Atari is giving us all these superficial additions. New units, new civs, new wonders, but they haven't really gone into the core engine and added anything meaningful, like new trading features and advanced alliance system or even a Senate like the one from Moo3, a fan request dating back to 2001.

If you're like to buy half a bread for full price, be my guest. As I've said, I'm not being unreasonable, there are plenty of market examples to prove that expansion packs should be more than what we are getting and rehashing last year's XP in this year's XP is something that is very strange, almost as if Atari is artificially increasing content. It's not like $30 is somehow below market price. For the content Atari is giving us, I'd say it's above market price.

My “low standards” are based upon the value I place upon $30.00, and, the emotional investment in whether I perceive myself as being “duped” into buying a cheap product twice or not; neither of which is very high for me. It is very high for you. In any case, these are called “opinions”. Occasionally people’s will differ from yours. Even with something as important as a game.

Well, you can be earning six figures or however much you make and $30 is just another pocket expense. Companies like Atari rely on your relative apathy to overprice goods and extract maximum economic rents.

I don't think everyone is in the same category as you, and your generalizing your feelings to include all of us who don't feel the same way as you, is a great disservice to other civvers.

Also, it doesn't cut both ways. Your attempt to tell me to stop whining because YOU think C3C is worth it works to deny other people to get heard, and potentially force Atari to make a few token concessions, which is all I am really hoping for at this stage.

On the other hand, by getting heard and complaining, I'm not denying you of anything. If Atari decides to make concessions or at least consider it, it doesn't stop you from paying your full $30 and feel warm and fuzzy inside that you didn't have to complain. Heck, you may secretly cash in on the deal as well.

I know "group think" and quashing dissent is fashionable in highly specialized forums like these, but be aware that you aren't really helping anybody, except maybe your ego by telling people to shut up about percieved product shortcomings.

At the very least, have some tolerance. It may not matter to you, but it matters to me. And all your arguments so far have been how much YOU think its ok. That only proves you can afford it and others can't.
If your intent was to prove that $30 is fairly priced and re-selling PTW to civvers is OK, you haven't done so.

[Panag]

Originally posted by dexters


Give me a break.

Feeling you got your money's worth and the old "no one is forcing you to buy this argument" is deflecting from the main issue, and that is, giving consumers who bought the games what they pay for.

Other companies are clearly going above and beyond your low standards, so it's not an unreasonable demand.

Also, the "don't buy it if you don't want to argument" is flawed. Because if people want to buy it, they are FORCED to buy the whole package. There is no product differentiation, as EA and any number of publishers have done.

At the most basic, most xpansion packs are self-contained, they don't contain last year's xp material. Conquests is a unique case, and as such, Atari has special responsibilities to the people who bought PTW to make sure that at the very least they acknowledge there are people who bought PTW and also want the new content.

Why does everyone have to repurchase the game? Because a of people like you Arsenal? You feel its ok, therefore it must be ok? Clearly, many don't, and all we want is a choice. EA iwith Sim City 4 is giving its consumers choice. Atari is not.

People like me just want to either a) get a discount for PTW owners b) a Conquests LITE with only the new material, at a lower price so we can just upgrade.

This way, people who didn't buy PTW can get their increadible deal. And people like you can pay Atari again for content you bought last year and beta tested for. For others, we can just buy the new content, since we paid for the PTW crap last year and don't want to pay for it again.

be happy there is an other XP , .......

and please dont bother the people who want to buy 30 bucks with negative critics , ......

cause most of the people here feel that when they go out with the buds after work they spend more then 30 bucks in one hour , .......

with that new XP one can play for thousand of hours , ......

if you dont want to pay for the crap , then dont buy it , hence , no-one is breaking your arm or forcing to buy it , .......

at apolyton people gather cause the like the game , not cause they DONT like it , ......

and please stop with posting the same negative crap all over , .......

[dexters]

Panag, I like Civ III. I've been here since 2001. I have pariticapted in strategy forum discussions, dissecting the AI. Some posters in the other forums know me. I know you should know I didn't sign up just to flame Civvers. I'm a "prince" level poster for crying out loud. I've made enough posts.

I will buy C3C. I have no choice but to buy it because I want to play with the new content.

Am I ticked off at Atari? Yes.

And for those who will inevitably accuse me of being a hypocrite about it, just because you force someone to buy bread from you doesn't mean they are happy about it. A lot of companies float around thinking consumers like their products, when in reality, the consumers are unhappy but have no other alternative but to buy it from said company. When an alternative shows up, and they loose their consumers, a great many CEOs wonder what happened.

Just look at Nintendo and how quickly their market share disintegrated when Sony showed up with a cheaper CD alternative to cartridges in thier PlayStation systems.

Atari clearly will get my business. Only grudgingly.

[statusperfect]

Playstation became popular so quickly because it was easy to get pirate games/copy you friends games. Same holds true for the x-box.

[dexters]

Not sure I agree with you there status. Sony would not be in business if pirating is what made it popular. There were plenty of floppy disk copying devices for the old Nintendo games too.

Anyways, that point you made just OTed this thread :P

[statusperfect]

Originally posted by dexters
Not sure I agree with you there status. Sony would not be in business if pirating is what made it popular. There were plenty of floppy disk copying devices for the old Nintendo games too.

Anyways, that point you made just OTed this thread :P

I thought we were talking RECENT consoles and and their market shares. Copy devices for 10-year old nitendos are irrelevant in this case.

Still we made the same point, even though our opinions on console history may vary. That point is: MONEY MATTERS!

The question is how much money matters for "cult" games like Civ. Most of us are as ****ed-up as the trekkers who own every single episode on bought tapes/DVDs.

[The Pioneer]

Originally posted by dexters

I don't want to sound like I don't care for the rest of the world, but some of the Euro Civ gamers I've seen have been pretty demanding on Atari as well, especially considering the tiny amount of sales being generated in those countries.

With Canada/USA however, I think the bulk of the buyers resides in both, and in terms of arguing my point, I have to keep it grounded of the plausible by assuming they'd do it only for North Americans. It would be nice to argue for a world wide rebate system or a world wide game price discount. Im just not so sure how realistic that is.

I beg to differ if you take the EU as a whole it is a very significant market that may be bigger or at least equal in terms of game sales.

As for a world wide rebate system, it is not possible because of the different laws in each country. I know that for a fact because I work in an export department where we deal with such matters very often. The question we hear most often is "In the States you offer Manufacturer's Rebates, why don't you do that here?"


So long...

[dexters]

Originally posted by The Pioneer


I beg to differ if you take the EU as a whole it is a very significant market that may be bigger or at least equal in terms of game sales.

As for a world wide rebate system, it is not possible because of the different laws in each country. I know that for a fact because I work in an export department where we deal with such matters very often. The question we hear most often is "In the States you offer Manufacturer's Rebates, why don't you do that here?"


So long...

I'm not fantasizing here. EA is doing rebate offers with Sim City 4 XP with their North American consumers.

I'll be frank here for a moment, because we're all civvers and have the same hobby. I have a problemw ith the European gamer attitude where if they can't have it, no one else will. Well, perhaps put that union to work and come up with some standardized rebate policy.

I've made great pains to point out that my suggestion, because it is contructive, has to be doable for Atari. A North American rebate is doable, so I'm sticking wiht that. It's too bad Euro gamers have issues with it. But EA and many multinational firms, including large European companies, have no problem offering rebates to us.

Atari by the way, is Infogrames, a French firm doing business in North America and I think they (Infogrames) have offered rebates in the past, although I may be mistaken.

It's a political and legal issue for you to deal with in Europe. Don't take it out on us

[Minute Mirage]

dexters:

What would your attitude about Conquests be if it didn't include the material from PTW?

[dexters]

Originally posted by Minute Mirage
dexters:

What would your attitude about Conquests be if it didn't include the material from PTW?

I will be buying Conquests. I'm a civver, I'm just not pleased with Atari's pricing policy.

As for my "attitude" I suppose I would just buy Conquests had they not included PTW content, since it is actually THE STANDARD INDUSTRY PRACTRICE to not include last year's expansion pack in this year's XP. I've said this many times before in various threads. The inclusion of old XP content in a new XP is rare, and is practically unheard of in recent memory. What Atari is doing is out of the ordinary, yet they are pricing the product as if it is business as usual.

In anycase, all I'm asking for is a choice. Either release a Conquests LITE with Conquest (new) material for PTW owners to upgrade at a lower price, or offer a rebate program so people who can prove they are PTW owners are at least get a small discount. If they want to release a full C3C with PTW included for other consumers, more power to them, and those consumers who held off on PTW will get a good deal. Great news for them.

That's it. All I want is for Atari to actually turn their heads and nod at the people who may have just recently bought PTW and give us a sign that we matter. And I've said this many times before. This request is not unreasonable. Most publishers make it a point not to recycle material in their XP to avoid exactly this. EA went so far as to price their Sim City 4 XP at $20 and then offer an addition $10 rebate because they are releasing a Sim City 4 Deluxe (core+xp) set and didn't want those who purchased the core game earlier this year to feel abandoned and screwed.

Atari obviously have no such qualms. And they wonder why they had to change their name from Infogrames to Atari.

[The Pioneer]

Originally posted by dexters

It's a political and legal issue for you to deal with in Europe. Don't take it out on us

Yo,

I am not taking it on you, I am just pointing it out as information. Each country here still has a different system and that is a pity and it will not change soon...

So long....

[Panag]

Originally posted by dexters


I will be buying Conquests. I'm a civver, I'm just not pleased with Atari's pricing policy.

As for my "attitude" I suppose I would just buy Conquests had they not included PTW content, since it is actually THE STANDARD INDUSTRY PRACTRICE to not include last year's expansion pack in this year's XP. I've said this many times before in various threads. The inclusion of old XP content in a new XP is rare, and is practically unheard of in recent memory. What Atari is doing is out of the ordinary, yet they are pricing the product as if it is business as usual.

In anycase, all I'm asking for is a choice. Either release a Conquests LITE with Conquest (new) material for PTW owners to upgrade at a lower price, or offer a rebate program so people who can prove they are PTW owners are at least get a small discount. If they want to release a full C3C with PTW included for other consumers, more power to them, and those consumers who held off on PTW will get a good deal. Great news for them.

That's it. All I want is for Atari to actually turn their heads and nod at the people who may have just recently bought PTW and give us a sign that we matter. And I've said this many times before. This request is not unreasonable. Most publishers make it a point not to recycle material in their XP to avoid exactly this. EA went so far as to price their Sim City 4 XP at $20 and then offer an addition $10 rebate because they are releasing a Sim City 4 Deluxe (core+xp) set and didn't want those who purchased the core game earlier this year to feel abandoned and screwed.

Atari obviously have no such qualms. And they wonder why they had to change their name from Infogrames to Atari.

hi ,

sjee , enough please , .......

the price is still darn cheap , no way how you look at it , .......

and you cant compare the sims with civ , .....

just imagine what it takes for you to be able to buy a copy in a shop , ......

but if you can drop the price even further , why dont you talk to atari , .......

bye

[Tiberius]

Did any of you figure out why would anyone buy Civ3 Gold? (which is going to be released in the same time with Conquests) Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Civ3 Gold = vanilla Civ3 + PtW ? Since it seems that Conquests is going to include all PtW content, why would anyone buy the Gold edition? If you wanted to buy now Civ3 plus an expansion pack, wouldn't you buy vanilla Civ3 + Conquests, which includes PtW anyway ?

Civ3 Gold + Conquests = Civ3 + PtW + PtW + Conquests

[statusperfect]

Yup, that is weird :/

I guess we are missing out on some info.

[WarpStorm]

Probably regular Civ won't be produced and on the shelves once Civ Gold hits the streets. People might find copies in a bargain bin, but not on the big retailers shelves.

[Louis XXIV]

Civ3 vanilla probably costs $30. Civ3: Gold costs $40, but is probably easier to get your hands on.

Besides, since the target is somebody who doesn't have Civilization yet, perhaps he would like to try out the regular game before buying the new $30 xp. I guess Civ3 Gold allows you to get both Civ3 and PTW at a fair price, before you decide to buy the expansion.

Anyway, that's my guess.

[The Pioneer]

I just pre ordered the game and at 15GBP (about 21 euro or 19 USD) which is a very good price. I know have to wait another 7 or so weeks until I get my hands on it .

So long...

[Psycho Billy]

Originally posted by dexters
As for my "attitude" I suppose I would just buy Conquests had they not included PTW content, since it is actually THE STANDARD INDUSTRY PRACTRICE to not include last year's expansion pack in this year's XP. I've said this many times before in various threads. The inclusion of old XP content in a new XP is rare, and is practically unheard of in recent memory. What Atari is doing is out of the ordinary, yet they are pricing the product as if it is business as usual.

Really?? Bundle packs are all over the place. The XP to Dungeon Seige even comes with the full version of DS:

Originally posted at http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/d...aranna_i.phtml
Additionally, Legends of Aranna comes bundled with the original Dungeon Siege and you can play the original game, or you can even play the original adventure using the new expansion executable, thereby gaining the new features and new spells and equipment.

This is hardly a new and unique idea.... I'm not trying to start anything here I just really can't understand why this bothers some of the ppl that bought PTW (much like they obviously can't see why we aren't bothered)

[Panag]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Did any of you figure out why would anyone buy Civ3 Gold? (which is going to be released in the same time with Conquests) Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Civ3 Gold = vanilla Civ3 + PtW ? Since it seems that Conquests is going to include all PtW content, why would anyone buy the Gold edition? If you wanted to buy now Civ3 plus an expansion pack, wouldn't you buy vanilla Civ3 + Conquests, which includes PtW anyway ?

Civ3 Gold + Conquests = Civ3 + PtW + PtW + Conquests

hi ,

well some new customers want to join in on the fun also , .......

have a nice day

[Grond]

I see most people feel they got their moneys worth from PTW. I've gotten the impression that the multiplayer is all but unplayable except for email. Has anybody here had success with LAN games?

[Master Zen]

Look at it this way.

What if Conquests did not include PTW? Instead of creating therefore two different communities (The PTW and C3C crowd) and having only a percentage of those two being mixed (the ones that own both game), you have all the C3C crowd immediately compatible with the PTW crowd. What's not to like about this decision? What I do agree is perhaps a $10 rebate would have been in order for buyers of PTW, but still, is $10 really worth all this fuss? (as to why EA does it, well they better give something back to the consumer after having to buy every silly yearly edition of their sports games most of the time which are almost identical to last year's only with a different roster).

What I do find totally despicable is if Civ3 Gold eventually replaces Civ3 GOTY like GOTY replaced Civ3. Civ3 had practically gone down to around $20-30 when GOTY appeard. Civ3 was immediately taken off the shelves and GOTY jumped the price up another 10-20 for something that simply included a 10 minute video and 3 maps and the latest patch, all of which could be downloaded from the internet. Bad Infogrames, really bad.

I truly hope that Atari doesn't make the same mistake and take out GOTY for the sake of C3Gold and jump the price up another $20.

[Louis XXIV]

Civ3 Gold is $40, wasn't GotY $50?

With Civ3 and PTW its a better value than GotY, isn't it?