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Old August 30, 2003, 09:18   #1
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What is a sociopath/psychopath?
And what is the difference? How does one make a (self?)diagnosis?

Also, what does it mean when one is "psychotic"?
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Old August 30, 2003, 09:23   #2
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Psychotic: I'm pretty sure that just refers to delusions, hallucination, paranoia, and other signs of severe separation from reality.
Sociopath is just a general term for a crazy punk who hurts or cheats people for fun and feels no remorse. More specifically, it could refer to people with antisocial personality disorder, i.e. people who naturally assume, for no rational reason, that the laws and conventions which govern social behavior do not apply to them, and can be broken at will. Basically Nietzsche's superman, only not as pretentious about it.
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Old August 30, 2003, 09:23   #3
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I think the difference (not a doctor, so this is how I understand it) is that a sociopath clearly knows they are doing wrong, but they have no regard for any of the limits or rules of society: in short, they don't care that they are doing wrong. Psycopaths are not in full control of their cognative abilities, so their handle on right and wrong is not 100%.

I would be more warry of a sociopath than a psychopath.
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Old August 30, 2003, 09:24   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elok
Basically Nietzsche's superman, only not as pretentious about it.
Immense distorsion of the mans work!

And the correct translation (or at least the best one) is overman..as in beyond 'man', not just a souped up model.
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Old August 30, 2003, 09:24   #5
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Quote:
What is a sociopath/psychopath?
Look in the mirror.
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Old August 30, 2003, 09:26   #6
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The truth is I don't know what the difference between the two of them is .
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Old August 30, 2003, 09:32   #7
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In Texas, the sociopaths execute the psychopaths.

There's your difference.
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Old August 30, 2003, 09:36   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Immense distorsion of the mans work!
And the correct translation (or at least the best one) is overman..as in beyond 'man', not just a souped up model.
Yes, I know ubermensch is literally "over-man." It's just that it sounds like a factory supervisor when I say that.
And I don't think it's that big of a distortion. What was his chief concern? That the rules of society be used to confine and hold back the great men who were ostensibly above them. Why were they above them? They just were. If you're a sufficiently special person, the rules of others do not apply to you. Normal humans are like beasts compared to you. You are a force of nature as it should be, taking by merit of dominance whatever you wish to be yours. So from a societal point of view, Zarathustra is nothing more or less than an unusually gifted and tactless sociopath.
But this is a bit early in the thread to be threadjacking.
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Old August 30, 2003, 09:49   #9
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It would appear that I have some sociopathic tendencies .

Still, I don't think I am a total sociopath, its probably a sliding scale in most/all people.
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:00   #10
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Does anyone know some online psychological test to test your sociopathedness? I think it would be cool to compare results.
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:01   #11
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oh, I'm sure I could do well on that test.
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:17   #12
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So do the following occupations define you as a sociopath?

- Mafia-Member
- Gangster (the usuall type you see on the street)
- Terrorist
- Freedom-Fighter (the type which goes against military targets)
- Mini-Rebel (wearing offensive T-Shirts and the like)
- Politician

Any of them?
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:23   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elok


Yes, I know ubermensch is literally "over-man." It's just that it sounds like a factory supervisor when I say that.
And I don't think it's that big of a distortion. What was his chief concern? That the rules of society be used to confine and hold back the great men who were ostensibly above them. Why were they above them? They just were. If you're a sufficiently special person, the rules of others do not apply to you. Normal humans are like beasts compared to you. You are a force of nature as it should be, taking by merit of dominance whatever you wish to be yours. So from a societal point of view, Zarathustra is nothing more or less than an unusually gifted and tactless sociopath.
But this is a bit early in the thread to be threadjacking.
A sociopath in effect has no conscience at all of his action. Zarathustra's vision of an overman has a conscience. when he says that man is a bridge between overmna and beats, he is specifically saying man is not a beast: the creation of good and bad, and even more, of good and evil force man to come to fgrips with himself, to enslave and break oneself yes, but also to gain a vision for things beyond animal urges.

For Nietszche for example, Jesus is an incredible man: here is a carpenter's son who rceate a brand new moral code..and that is what Neitszche look for in an overman, a creative being (which explain the camel, to lion, to child speech). How much did the creation of Christianity destroy, sweep aside? how many ancient moral codes and their believers were overturned, annahilated? And all that with the creation of Chrsitianity, which is the thing, to create is also to destroy: every great creation means and end to something, which is why he feels the creator can not afford pity. if yu pity what is, how can you gather the strength to destroy it and oevrthrow it when you create the new?
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:35   #14
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That's a nice interpretation, but it doesn't chime with what I've read of his works. The "magnificent blond beast" overcoming all that stands in his way, the strong over the weak; all of his sayings are more in line with the virtues of the antisocial than the enlightenment-era deistic morality you describe. If you read in between all of his gibbering self-aggrandizing poetry, Zarathustra's message is simply that he is greater than us, and therefore his concerns supercede ours.
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:39   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elok
That's a nice interpretation, but it doesn't chime with what I've read of his works. The "magnificent blond beast" overcoming all that stands in his way, the strong over the weak; all of his sayings are more in line with the virtues of the antisocial than the enlightenment-era deistic morality you describe. If you read in between all of his gibbering self-aggrandizing poetry, Zarathustra's message is simply that he is greater than us, and therefore his concerns supercede ours.
The blond beast may oevrcome all in its way, but it has no depth. Nietzsche wrote more than one book, in fact Zarathustra is one of his first books. Beyond Good and Evil, Geneology of Morals: these books give a far clearer picture of his aims, once one gets a handle on his style.

How do you interpret the "Camel, to Lion, to Child" passage?
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:40   #16
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Here is a quick quiz on what you have read: do you think of Nietzche as an anti-semite? Or a nationalist?
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:47   #17
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My impression was that Zarathustra was one of his last. The vague idea of the greater man remained with him for most of his life, but he only really fully developed and expressed it towards the end. That's what I read. And I know Ecce Homo was his *last* work, and that's undeniably nuckingfuts. I've read the genealogy of morals, and in fact I'm pretty sure that's where the blond beast line comes from. He has this weird literary orgasm over the idea of the "magnificent blond beast, returned from rape, slaughter, and other even more unmentionable deeds, and laughing at it all as though it were no more than a mad schoolboy's prank," or something like that. That's not a quote, but it's pretty close, and the general idea is clearly one he approves of, judging from context.
I'm afraid I don't recall the camel speech. Around where in TSZ was it? I have the Portable Nietzsche somewhere in my room, and this is as good a time as any to dig it back up.
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:54   #18
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Psychopath has a very precise medical definition:
Quote:
PSYCHOPATHIC PERSONALITY
WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [n] a personality disorder characterized by amorality and lack of affect; capable of violent acts without guilt feelings (`psychopathic personality' was once widely used but was superseded by `sociopathic personality' to indicate the social aspects of the disorder; `antisocial personality disorder' is currently the preferred term)
They're not crazy, and they're impossible to rehabilitate. They're poster boys for the death penalty.
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:56   #19
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Nietzsche is neither an anti-semite nor a nationalist. He referred to anti-semitism as "the German disease," and railed against Christianity for "so polluting the minds of men that it is possible, two thousand years later, for a Christian to despise the jews without realizing that he is himself the ultimate jewish consequence." Which is to say, the only crime of judaism is in establishing the moral code that led to the "weakness" of Christianity, for which he holds true animosity, and crazy as he is he isn't dumb enough to think people of today have anything to do with the actions of their ancestors.
He despised, or at least would have despised, nationalism, along with any other belief that touts a large group of people as superior in combination. Men are by his reckoning stupid cattle destined to follow the ubermensch, and for them to glorify themselves as a whole would be like the apes at the zoo dressing up in hats and coats and thinking it made them human. He did have some faith in the German race("the future of our race is in the sons and daughters of prussian officers"), but he wasn't a nationalist, nor did he subscribe to the kind of social darwinism espoused by Hitler, who built a museum in lip-service to him.
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Old August 30, 2003, 10:58   #20
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The thing is, the blond beast is NOT the overman. The blond beast is man before Good and Evil.

(on timelines, he wrote Zarathustra fater his first few books that dealt with things like Wagner and tragedy, and after Dawn, but before Ecce Homo, Beyond Good and Evil, and the Geneology)

What he approves of the blond beast is its complete devotion to fulfilling its life and making ful use of its power. the thing is, the blond beast can NOT create, at most it can only destroy. And it is creation that he seeks most of all. IN a sense, the priests which he despise, the ones that he says negate life and whihs to destory this realm for a fantasy other world in which their weaknees now becomes strength do create, they create the conscience by their attemots at self-enslavement, and that is a rpe-requisite for the overman.
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Old August 30, 2003, 12:16   #21
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The classic feature of a psychotic disorder, which distinguishes it from other neurological disorders, is impaired reality testing i.e. incorrect evaluation of accuracy of perception and thoughts; incorrect inferences about external reality.

Symptoms of psychotic behaviour include delusions, hallucinations and incoherent speech. Psychotic disorders include schizophrenia and some severe mood disorders.

AFAIK, being psychotic does not automatically infer that you are a psycopath, as psycopathy is considered to be violence associated with a sever mental disorder. It is quite common for psychotic patients to display psychopathic tendencies, but it's not universal.

By definition then, it is impossible for a psychotic person to deduce that they are suffering a mental disorder (due to the impaired reality testing). They do not realize they are ill and thus cannot seek help by themselves. Not to be mixed up with neurosis, where reality testing is intact and the patient can actively seek treatment.
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Old August 30, 2003, 12:35   #22
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AFAIK, psychotic, and psychopath are two different things.
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Old August 30, 2003, 12:35   #23
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OK, so now that we know what it is, do we know what causes it?
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Old August 30, 2003, 12:42   #24
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Ok, so what about if you are in doubt if you are crazy or not?
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Old August 30, 2003, 12:48   #25
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what, psychotic, or psychopathic behavior?
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Old August 30, 2003, 12:49   #26
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Re: What is a sociopath/psychopath
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Old August 30, 2003, 12:55   #27
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Smiley, there are several different types of psychotic disorders, each with their own particular cause, but let's just take the most well known one, schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder that is characterized by both positive (overt, easier to treat) symptoms such as delusions, hallucinations and thought disorder, and negative symptoms, such as social withdrawal and the 'flattened affect' (lack of emotion in speech).

The human brain is of course, very complex, so current understanding of the cause of schizophrenia and other psychotic illnesses is basic. The main theory revolves around the fact that schizophrenia can successfully be treated with drugs that increase Dopamine activity in the brain (e.g. haloperidol, clozapine). This, and other observations in post-mortems led people to the conclusion that the primary cause of psychotic disorders are a decrease of Dopamine in the mesolimbic region of the brain.
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Old August 30, 2003, 13:22   #28
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Just as a sidenote, I'd like to dispel a myth that drives psych professors (like my mom) nuts:
Schizophrenia is NOT the same as Multiple Personality Disorder. Some schizophrenics, depending on the type they are, may hallucinate nonexistent people, animals, etc., but they do not view those hallucinations as extensions of themselves.
That aside, social withdrawal and flattened affect are also common in autistics(actually, they're two of the big symptoms), and from what I gather there may be a reason for that. Autistics have an extremely powerful visual imagination, to the point of near-photographic memory in some cases. It can be literally photographic too: normal people memorize words by remembering the words themselves, whereas autistics tend to remember the image of the page the words are written on and "read" the words off of the recalled image in their minds. I'm not quite that powerful so I can only remember scattered fragments of a page, but it's the same principle. Autism is, in a very limited sense, a low-grade and largely voluntary form of schizophrenia, by which the self-imposed constructions of your own imagination isolate you from the real world. This also explains the oversensitivity-because the senses are given less attention than in normal humans(the PC phrase is "neurotypical" but I think that sounds stupid), we have a much lower tolerance for sensory stimulation, and those senses can easily be pushed to the point of irritation in some of us. Hence I hate strong smells, loud noises, bright lights, and physical contact far more than a normal person would. It's a pretty whack-sounding theory, but it's gaining support in a few rare circles. O_M, you seem knowledgeable. Any speculation?
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Old August 30, 2003, 13:39   #29
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Hmmm... I haven't done that much on autism, mainly because I concentrate on the neuropsychopharmacology aspect; and from what you're suggesting Elok, autism would seem to be a form of schizophrenia with no underlying pathology. Of course, it could explain why behavioral therapy proves more effective in the case of autistics; there is no therapeutic target for drug action.
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Old August 30, 2003, 14:00   #30
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Autists are described as having an extremely male brain, more inclined for cold calculation than for empathy.
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