Growing up in an irreligious household.

[Odin]

Sorry Shi, I think you somehow pulled a string in me some how, I think it was that "It's your duty" thing.

Anyway, I wouldent introduce her to religion at a young age. When she is old enough to understand things philosophically she will check out religions if she wants to.

[devilmunchkin]

i think sophie will be fine and perhaps better off in an irreligious household. she'll learn to think on her own and not be dependent on some big old man in the sky. SHe'll learn to take responsibility for her mistakes and successes rather than lean on something else. ANd perhaps, if you let her know at some point that other people believe in christianity, she'll look at things with an open yet skeptical mind...but yet be strong enough to not fall prey to it.

[Ramo]

My mom is Moslem, but she had never forced me to go to a Mosque, etc. I think that's definitely the right approach. Although, I wish I had a little more exposure to religion when I was younger - not as "the truth," but as another academic subject (which I've been getting a lot more acquinted to, ironically, after 9/11).

John, IMO it's perfectly cool to teach Sophie all you want about Catholicism, as long as you let her form, and keep, her own opinions.

[Shi Huangdi]

Sorry Shi, I think you somehow pulled a string in me some how, I think it was that "It's your duty" thing. "

No Problem.

[Panag]

hi ,

yes

have a nice day

[Soul Survivor]

I think its very important to raise children religiously.

1. It helps them deal with tragedy.

2. It helps them be good people.

3. Its an easy way to explain things in a way children can understand, especially if they aren't ready for the real explanation.

That being said, I don't think it should be shoved down a child's throat, and I think evolution should be taught too. As they get older they should be exposed to more ideas so they can make their own choices, but Christianity provides a very good starting point. It's a nice thing for them to believe like Santa or the Tooth Fairy.

(how ironic, as I'm writing this post "God ~ John Lennon" started playing on my random 2401 song playlist)

There might be more in this religion thing than I thought

[Straybow]

I'm sure darling Sophie had more to say than just "Anana!! I anananana!"

JohnT, I'm sure you and Laura realized that the RC culture is only one facet of many possible religious backgrounds. Being in K-town means you are fairly deep in the Bible belt. Southern church culture is really the flip-side of same coin: different rules but the same oppressive spirit. As you said, people go to see and be seen; the supposed effects of conversion (or whatever the denomination calls it) are too sparsely demonstrated. Not a good atmosphere for immersion.

As others have said, many parents go to church only because they feel it is good for the kids. I know few who went to a non-oppressive church as a child who did not benefit from it enough to want to do so for their kids. I was raised by parents who fit that general description. We went to a Presbyterian church in Pittsburg, and then to a Methodist church in Oak Ridge TN (because there weren't any decent-sized Pres churches around and FUMC had an active youth program).

Between myself and my two brothers we have turned out very different in terms of religion. I don't even know if my younger brother goes to a church. My older brother does, but makes no claim to specific religious conversion. He and I shared in one experience (a youth retreat) which was particularly formative for me but I have no idea how it effected him.

The greatest influence has to be my Aunt. She loved us boys in a wonderful way, and one weekend a month each of us got to spend with Grandma and Aunt Gennie (who never married and cared for my aging Gma). She's what I call a "real Presbyterian." I was left with the clear picture of someone who seemed content to know God, without the need to show it off or anything like that.

That was something I saw in a few other people. Even after I rejected religion with its all-too-obvious warts I still wanted what I saw in those few. If there was a God (and I felt sure there was) He must be worth knowing. I found out it was so, but that's another story…

I suspect the soul-searching is anything but over; it is apparently a requirement for parenthood. My advice is more to you and Laura for yourselves rather than for Sophie: find people you want to be around, not a church that you go to because of your parents' or grandparents' expectations.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Soul Survivor
I think its very important to raise children religiously.

1. It helps them deal with tragedy.

If you mean by "deal with", pretend rather than face up to it, then yes.

2. It helps them be good people.

In my experience religious people tend to suffer the same rate of ******* occurrence as the rest of us. Despite the claims of religion I have never seen evidence to the opposite.

3. Its an easy way to explain things in a way children can understand, especially if they aren't ready for the real explanation.

It's irrational and should not be taught to children at all. It's hopeless trying to tell your children the value of honesty and integrity and then inflict such wild and flagrantly self contradictory hypotheses on them. In answer to religious questions and questions about death and destinty it's best to say "nobody really knows" since that is pretty much the truth.

[Kuciwalker]

I agree with Agathon

[Agathon]

Originally posted by skywalker
I agree with Agathon

You would even more if you'd seen the fundy kid at my school who was constantly afraid that Satan was going to get him and would call out to God in the middle of the playground.

[Japher]

JohnT
You and you wife should not compromise your own belief system or moral code for the sake of your kid. Thus, if neither of you see no use for religion then you should not do the whole church thing as it shows your kid it is alright to be a blashpamere wasting time..

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon
You would even more if you'd seen the fundy kid at my school who was constantly afraid that Satan was going to get him and would call out to God in the middle of the playground.

[monolith94]

"she'll learn to think on her own and not be dependent on some big old man in the sky. SHe'll learn to take responsibility for her mistakes and successes rather than lean on something else."

So did I, and I went to church every sunday. Believing in God doesn't mean believing in an absence of self...

"she'll look at things with an open yet skeptical mind...but yet be strong enough to not fall prey to it."

OH MY GOD!!! Our plan to lure young Sophie into a den of religion has failed! Oh well, plenty of third worlders who'll join up for wonderbread! Muahahahah!

[Alexander's Horse]

A lot of this discussion misses the point.

Raising your child catholic or any established church community, has a lot of social and economic benefits - better education, a moral reference point or framework, a community of parents like yourself to back you up and socialise with, freebies like access to holiday houses

You don't have to be a fanatic about the relgious part of it. But the ties you make are very handy all through your life, in business, politics, sports, whatever. You'll never walk alone. It certainly helps make me. And if something happened to me I know my family would be looked after.

I do like going to church with my kids, its fun. I feel proud.

My own views on aspects of the faith I keep to myself, like most Dads.

[st_swithin]

Buy her a few sharks with frikkin lasers on their heads - that'll teach her about life. Or death. I guess that's two of the same thing, huh Zed?

[Soul Survivor]

Originally posted by Agathon


If you mean by "deal with", pretend rather than face up to it, then yes.

so you'd rather tell your 6 year old that they'll never see their grandma ever again, and someday they'll end up the same way? dead and forgotten.

In my experience religious people tend to suffer the same rate of ******* occurrence as the rest of us. Despite the claims of religion I have never seen evidence to the opposite.

That may be entirely true. But there is no denying Christian morals and ethics are an inherently good way to live.

It's irrational and should not be taught to children at all. It's hopeless trying to tell your children the value of honesty and integrity and then inflict such wild and flagrantly self contradictory hypotheses on them. In answer to religious questions and questions about death and destinty it's best to say "nobody really knows" since that is pretty much the truth.

What kind of ****ing depressing life are you living??? They're nice myths to know and experience. Just because kids are taught Christian beliefs early in life doesn't mean they're going to turn out to be fundamentalist wacko's going on Crusades to free the holy land. Kids are not ready for reality, and their exposure to it should be in small doses until they're ready. Let them enjoy their childhood, so at least they'll think they have answers instead of constantly asking "Why?... I don't know" A kid needs a parent, part of being a parent is knowing everything.

Yes, questioning ideas and beliefs is a good thing, but kids don't need to be taught that until they're 11 or 12 years old. Its not like they're going to revolutionize quantum theory at that point! A child's mind is not rational, therefore trying to impose a rational system on them from the beginning will only hurt them in the long run. Why should an entire generation of children lose their childhood?

Besides, like AH pointed out church provides children with many social oppurtunities. I'm not advocating that children should be forced to read the bible to the letter, just that they experience religion until they're ready to start making their own ideas!

[Q Classic]

johnt: it's your duty to raise the child catholic. that's what the church says.

unlike you, i grew up in a religious household. mom was, after all, a convert, and converts are always more devout than those born into the faith.

if you do decide to raise sophie in the faith, start going to mass ever week; it'll be hard at first, but it gets easier as time goes on. and hell, it's only and hour or so a week. enroll the kid in sunday school.

they'll start questioning their beliefs and growing spiritually in a truly meaningful way by the time they turn into teens anyway, so don't worry about them being so brainwashed.

if you decide not to raise the child in your faith, don't restrict their access to it. if a friend wants to take them to church, let them (unless they're southern baptist. i don't think you want your kid scarred at an early age by being told she's going to hell.) be there for them, and answer their questions with your answers as best as you can, and help them explore.

in the end, it's up to you. but you might as well cover all the bases by going ahead and baptising her.

[Alexander's Horse]

John

Major benefit of going to mass for fathers: It's about the only full waking hour all week when noone hassles me.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by JohnT
My wife and I were discussing religious education in regards to our 2 year old daughter and, well, we have a dilemma:

We aren't really religious. At all.

Why is this necessarily a dilemma?

[Asher]

Originally posted by JohnT
But that's a belief and not a demonstrable fact.

Um. Hello John, this is a thread about religion.

If you want demonstrable fact, just what do you think you're asking?

It is my belief that children should not be indoctrined with some faith. I wouldn't teach my children there is no God, but I wouldn't teach them that there is one either. It's up to them what they choose to believe when they're old enough to comprehend it.

It's the only fair way, as I can see it. Shoving faith down someone's throat is one of the worst ways to go about it -- people wonder why church attendance rates are abysmal these days.

As for the people who are saying it's the "duty of" John to brainwash his children -- do you not see the parallels with cults when you assign people "duties" to indoctrinate people?

[Alexander's Horse]

you need to go to church more Asher

[Ted Striker]

AH upskirts at church

[Asher]

I can find better things to do on Sundays than to listen to some boring old hag drone on and on about **** nobody is listening to. Everyone is in attendance because they feel somehow forced. They're apparently not bright enough to know that if a God did exist, and if this God did require worship, then this God would clearly be able to know that you did not want to be there, and went there out of obligation and not spirit.

Even if religion is correct, most church-goers are just as bad as people who stay home to watch football. At least the football watchers aren't being dishonest.

[Ted Striker]

I agree. Church blows. All I see are a bunch of cold-hearted rule followers doing their duty. Like taking the garbage out. They'd rathar doing something else besides take the garbage out but they feel obligated to do so.

I'd rathar sleep in.

[Alexander's Horse]

when you join the ruling class Ted you'll understand

[Ted Striker]

sheit

[monolith94]

Asher, your whole "resentful and bitter surface concealing an emotionally vulnerable core" thing isn't working out too good in this thread. Instead, you're beginning to sound like an athiest ann coulter.

[Imran Siddiqui]

He's also been passed over for promotion twice since converting... his workplace is quite hostile to it.

Well, if he's in the US, then he may have a pretty good Title VII claim against his workplace.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Soul Survivor

so you'd rather tell your 6 year old that they'll never see their grandma ever again, and someday they'll end up the same way? dead and forgotten.

Well, that's what I was told and it wasn't the terrible life-scarring experience you seem to think it would be.

If you read what I said, you will see that I recommend saying "Nobody knows" when it comes to religious and eschatalogical issues. I say that because it's the truth: nobody really knows.

That may be entirely true. But there is no denying Christian morals and ethics are an inherently good way to live.

Yes there is. I don't know why people assume there isn't. The puritanical attitude towards sex and the conservative economic attitudes of many Protestant denominations are not something that children should be browbeaten into believing.

What kind of ****ing depressing life are you living??? They're nice myths to know and experience. Just because kids are taught Christian beliefs early in life doesn't mean they're going to turn out to be fundamentalist wacko's going on Crusades to free the holy land.

I don't think that people should lie to their children about such matters. In any case it is a big step from lying to one's children to enrolling them in a religious cult, so your argument is invalid as it stands.

Kids are not ready for reality, and their exposure to it should be in small doses until they're ready. Let them enjoy their childhood, so at least they'll think they have answers instead of constantly asking "Why?... I don't know" A kid needs a parent, part of being a parent is knowing everything.

That's a terrible attitude to take. After all being afraid of things one doesn't know anything about is a hallmark of irrationality. The best thing for us to do as an example to our children is to know our limits. After all if it is made clear to them that nobody knows they aren't going to feel left out of it.

Yes, questioning ideas and beliefs is a good thing, but kids don't need to be taught that until they're 11 or 12 years old. Its not like they're going to revolutionize quantum theory at that point! A child's mind is not rational, therefore trying to impose a rational system on them from the beginning will only hurt them in the long run. Why should an entire generation of children lose their childhood?

This is empirically false. Children are often highly rational. In fact they are more rational than adults. This is because as new users of language they tend to be more finicky about the rules of logic because, as new and unsure users, they have to be. That is why they often ask such disarming (and wholly warranted) questions about (bad) adult behaviour.

Besides, like AH pointed out church provides children with many social oppurtunities. I'm not advocating that children should be forced to read the bible to the letter, just that they experience religion until they're ready to start making their own ideas!

I don't see why children should experience religion as some basis of belief. There are plenty of other ways in which children can enjoy social opportunities and some of these don't involve religious guilt tripping.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by JohnT
I do think the idea that it is wrong for a believing adult to inculcate their child into their religion (as has been argued to me on another board) is bizarre and kinda obliterates half the purpose of parenthood - to raise your child in the manner that you see fit.

Is that a bit arbitrary? What you see fit is not necessarily best for the child. Anybody think that way has no right to question the Muslim parents who teach their kids to become suicide bombers.

Originally posted by JohnT
If you believe in religion, teach the kid religion - after all, none of you are going to resist teaching your child about the importance of "critical thinking" and "thinking for yourself", etc. After all, that's what y'all "believe" in, isn't it?

No, neither of them are beliefs.

Critical thinking is a tool, you believe in critical thinking as much as you believe in a spoon.

Thinking for yourself is an attitude. Do you belief in snobbery, say?