Thread Tools
Old September 4, 2003, 22:33   #61
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
The only time for mobilization is in a desperate DEFENSIVE war, where you will not be taking another's cities (but maybe retaking your own).
__________________
JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
Jaybe is offline  
Old September 5, 2003, 03:27   #62
bongo
lifer
PtWDG2 Mohammed Al-SahafPtWDG Neu DemogypticaCivilization III PBEMC3CDG Blood Oath HordeIron CiversC4DG The HordeC4WDG éirich tuireann
Emperor
 
bongo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: MOOHOOHO
Posts: 4,737
True. I've toyed a bit with mobilization and came to the conclusion that it was very useful in some special condition that rarely occurs in my own games. Fighting a desperate defensive war to protect a small-medium(but well developed) empire is such a case.

In my typical game I have a well developed core that spits out units to fuel an ongoing (aggressive)war, lots of truly crappy cities and some that are crappy but will benefit from developement. Mobilization will make my arm-factories more productive but also stop development elsewhere.
__________________
Don't eat the yellow snow.
bongo is offline  
Old September 5, 2003, 04:21   #63
Ljube
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization II MultiplayerDiploGamesC3CDG Blood Oath HordeC4DG The HordeCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Emperor
 
Ljube's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Belgrade
Posts: 7,255
I never get to fight defensive wars on my territory.

If the AI demands something and can hurt me, I just give them what they want.

Obviously, playing like this, I don't need mobilisation at all.
Ljube is offline  
Old September 7, 2003, 15:08   #64
Panag
MacCivilization II Democracy Game: ExodusC4BtSDG Rabbits of Caerbannog
Emperor
 
Panag's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Posts: 8,117
Quote:
Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
My thoughts are that on Diety it is all meant to be the hardest it can possibly be for us....

So the AI will be stubborn and pig headed in its dealings with us...
hi ,

not if you teach them a lesson or two , ......

have a nice day
Panag is offline  
Old September 7, 2003, 15:28   #65
dexters
Apolyton Storywriters' Guild
King
 
dexters's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,141
Quote:
Originally posted by ljcvetko


I agree that the AI shouldn’t pay tribute every turn just because I have one unit more than he does, BUT, when faced with an imminent death, I believe they should yield (I know I would). You see what is, well let’s say not unrealistic but plain stupid: They are behaving the same way when they have 20, 10 and only one city left.
Actually no. It's logical. The Civ III AIs are programmed to win, hanging around with a piddly few cities as a vassal to you isn't their goal in life.

In many cases, they would rather die fighting and make trouble for you by signing up in entangling MPPs rather than pay you what you think is "realistic". Civ III isn't a simulation. It's TBS. Get that in your head.

I thought the realism argument died a long time ago, but obviously people still can't get over it.
dexters is offline  
Old September 8, 2003, 03:06   #66
bongo
lifer
PtWDG2 Mohammed Al-SahafPtWDG Neu DemogypticaCivilization III PBEMC3CDG Blood Oath HordeIron CiversC4DG The HordeC4WDG éirich tuireann
Emperor
 
bongo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: MOOHOOHO
Posts: 4,737
Some realism is nice as long as it doesn't intefere with the fun

What is 'smart' behaviour when the AI is getting a thorough beating? If it's down to his last city then he might as well give you the finger. Even if it will be his doom. If it still have enough cities to make a diffeence then it would be best to cough up and give you all his money. Which is pretty much the way it behaves today.
__________________
Don't eat the yellow snow.
bongo is offline  
Old September 8, 2003, 11:28   #67
TheArsenal
Apolyton University
Prince
 
TheArsenal's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sunny Southern California
Posts: 900
I took a break from AU209 to try this out. Renegotiating peace treaty during peacetime was an effective tool (at least at Monarch level, playing as Persia with plenty of Immortals) and I was able to get a tech (Mathematics) and a small sum of gold. It had the additional advantage of locking Arabia in a 20 turn peace deal until I was ready to launch an attack on them. Again, a fantastic tip.


Quote:
Originally posted by dexters
I thought the realism argument died a long time ago, but obviously people still can't get over it.
Despite all the civilization trappings that are built around the mechanics of the game, at its very core this is a game based upon moving pieces across a grid (more so for me, because I play with the grid lines visible), capturing and/or controlling the board (by force, diplomacy, culture or trade, doesn’t matter). Therefore, I have never looked at TBS as simulations of reality, but the logical extension of chess meeting current game technology, and Civ as no more than the ultimate chess game. Or Risk. Or whatever. I’ve always found demanding elements of “realism” at the sake of game play mind you, just as strange as questioning the realism of a pawn being able to “become” a Queen during a certain point of chess game.
__________________
"Guess what? I got a fever! And the only prescription is ... more cow bell!"
TheArsenal is offline  
Old September 8, 2003, 15:47   #68
dexters
Apolyton Storywriters' Guild
King
 
dexters's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 1,141
Quote:
Originally posted by bongo
Some realism is nice as long as it doesn't intefere with the fun

What is 'smart' behaviour when the AI is getting a thorough beating? If it's down to his last city then he might as well give you the finger. Even if it will be his doom. If it still have enough cities to make a diffeence then it would be best to cough up and give you all his money. Which is pretty much the way it behaves today.
I think the AI's main limitation in its current form is that it can't really make long-term plans. It reacts rather than plan. And the only memory it has is a series of attitde and reputation sliders that gets adjusted throughout the game to reflect your actions. So it's a very indirect way of keeping track of past turns.

The AI will often hate you for doing something, but it likely won't remember or know what that something is. Lacking this, the logical alternative is to have the AI be as stubborn as possible, to avoid it being exploited by human players. And I've seen that this stubborness can bring results. I've had one city civs bring down my entire Civ in war weariness because they entangled me into far too many wars far too frequently.
--------------------

One of the biggest criticism I have against Firaxis right now is that we're fastly approaching year 2 of vanilla Civ 3's release, and they're still just perfecting the multi-player stuff they promised us was going to be in Civ III 2 years ago, and the new content, while nice, is just window dressing.

There has not been any serious attempt at going into the code and rewriting how AI behaves and really improve it by making it remember key events and have limied planning capabilities (ie: Take revenge of X civ in 20 turns). It seems like the xpansion packs are all about milking the cash cow, going the easy route by adding a lot of superficial content, like new civs and new units, but not working on the under the hood stuff, which is now two years old and could use some serious upgrades.

Last edited by dexters; September 8, 2003 at 15:55.
dexters is offline  
Old September 8, 2003, 18:31   #69
Ljube
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization II MultiplayerDiploGamesC3CDG Blood Oath HordeC4DG The HordeCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Emperor
 
Ljube's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Belgrade
Posts: 7,255
Quote:
Originally posted by dexters


The AI will often hate you for doing something, but it likely won't remember or know what that something is. Lacking this, the logical alternative is to have the AI be as stubborn as possible, to avoid it being exploited by human players. And I've seen that this stubborness can bring results.
Yea, AI civ's destruction.
Ljube is offline  
Old September 8, 2003, 18:37   #70
Ljube
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization II MultiplayerDiploGamesC3CDG Blood Oath HordeC4DG The HordeCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Emperor
 
Ljube's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Belgrade
Posts: 7,255
Quote:
Originally posted by dexters



One of the biggest criticism I have against Firaxis right now is that we're fastly approaching year 2 of vanilla Civ 3's release, and they're still just perfecting the multi-player stuff they promised us was going to be in Civ III 2 years ago, and the new content, while nice, is just window dressing.
That's why I stick to civ 2 MP.
It would be great to deny someone key resources, though.

Last edited by Ljube; September 8, 2003 at 18:45.
Ljube is offline  
Old September 8, 2003, 18:42   #71
Ljube
C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamCivilization II MultiplayerDiploGamesC3CDG Blood Oath HordeC4DG The HordeCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Emperor
 
Ljube's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Belgrade
Posts: 7,255
Quote:
Originally posted by dexters


There has not been any serious attempt at going into the code and rewriting how AI behaves and really improve it by making it remember key events and have limied planning capabilities (ie: Take revenge of X civ in 20 turns).
Second best thing would be to have the AI that's been beaten recently (lightly beaten, lost a few cities) assume low profile and donate modest gifts to the master. This way, at least some people would refrain from erasing that one pathetic civ.
Ljube is offline  
Old September 10, 2003, 17:58   #72
Panag
MacCivilization II Democracy Game: ExodusC4BtSDG Rabbits of Caerbannog
Emperor
 
Panag's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Posts: 8,117
Quote:
Originally posted by ljcvetko


That's why I stick to civ 2 MP.
It would be great to deny someone key resources, though.

hi ,

, lets see how you gona feel with C3C , .......

civ II is totally different then its younger sister , ....... its way easier also , ......

have a nice day
Panag is offline  
Old September 12, 2003, 14:19   #73
Brundlefly
Prince
 
Brundlefly's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Picksburgh
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. A. Cula
It depends. If you make your demands, then click "Take this deal or suffer!", it only makes them angrier with you, but they don't give in.
This is not true. I've had them give in before using this option. You have to be significantly more powerful.
Brundlefly is offline  
Old September 13, 2003, 16:42   #74
Panag
MacCivilization II Democracy Game: ExodusC4BtSDG Rabbits of Caerbannog
Emperor
 
Panag's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Posts: 8,117
Quote:
Originally posted by Feephi


This is not true. I've had them give in before using this option. You have to be significantly more powerful.

hi ,

that also depends , sometimes you can scare a bigger and better AI away , especially when he or she is involved in a couple of wars , far away , ......

have a nice day
Panag is offline  
Old September 14, 2003, 09:47   #75
Paddy
Iron CiversApolyton Storywriters' GuildThe Courts of Candle'BreBtS Tri-LeagueC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamC3CDG Blood Oath HordeCiv4 SP Democracy GameC4DG The HordeC4WDG éirich tuireannApolytoners Hall of Fame
Prince
 
Paddy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: at the beach
Posts: 40,904
or you could just

leave their cities in ruins..........
__________________
Gurka 17, People of the Valley
I am of the Horde.
Paddy is offline  
Old September 14, 2003, 11:04   #76
Panag
MacCivilization II Democracy Game: ExodusC4BtSDG Rabbits of Caerbannog
Emperor
 
Panag's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:05
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Posts: 8,117
Quote:
Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
or you could just

leave their cities in ruins..........
hi ,



two reasons ; one the AI tends to rebuild a city then on the same spot , and two it kinda acts like polution , ....

have a nice day
Panag is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:05.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team